Talk:2005 Atlantic hurricane season statistics/Colors

**Current hurricane status**
Category 1 hurricane
today	As of:
Location:	somewhere
Wind speed:	fast
Pressure:	low
Movement:	towards somewhere
See detailed information below.

Color scheme 23 was the one adopted.

New colors[edit]

These colors are too... soft, and it is almost impossible to distinguish the difference between the TS's and TD's. The old colors were better (with the exception of the Cat 5 red, it was too intense), so we might want to merge the two color schemes... Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 05:44, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agree: Put TD and TS back the the old colors, keep the rest. --Ajm81 08:59, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The old TD was too intense (it had been more intense than 1 and 2, for example), and the old TS is green, which people think should be avoided (see above, #Overcoloration). --AySz88^-^ 15:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with the new colors on the colorblindness accessibility issue I mentioned on the 2005 season page. The TD and TS colors have to go; the others are annoying but not a real problem. - Cuivienen 18:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any specific recommendation for replacements? I wouldn't want to pick something equally bad. --AySz88^-^ 19:41, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Perhaps changing the TS to a softer sky blue (e.g. this blue, but on the other scheme), to indicate more rain? Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 19:57, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the UNISYS colors or the old colors. Could we place them in a small square in the upper left of each cell of the Storm Name & Landfalling columns, by having a picture background with that color in the upper left? I made an example. Even if it tiles, it should be large enough not to repeat. Does anyone like the old colors, but smaller so they don't clash with some monitors/eyes? --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 20:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

1Here's my recommendations:

Extratropical Edit - (silver) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (aqua) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#80ccff) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (white) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#ffffaa)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (yellow) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (orange) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#ff4343) Edit

2or switching the two colors:

Extratropical Edit - (silver) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#80ccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (aqua) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (white) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#ffffaa)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (yellow) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (orange) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#ff4343) Edit

Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 20:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I like the UNISYS colors too and Jdorje used that in the very beginning, but then they were changed. I hate the current colors we have now with a red hot passion. I much prefer having the old colors back. The fricking easter egg colors cannot stay. I will never agree with their presence. The sky blue is a little too nice. Dim the old colors slightly then reinstate them. I can't believe people acctually thought those colors should represent hurricanes that in many cases killed dozens of people. These colors treat hurricanes like something the Easter Bunny would carry around in a basket and give to little kids. Am I the only person who sees the insanity in that? -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 20:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The UNISYS colors are no good for us. We have to pick colors that are good for both the track maps and for text background. Jdorje 21:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Those are good colors Tito, I like them. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 20:41, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Those colors work for me, Tito. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 20:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I like this scheme. It doewsn;t cause any problems because each color has a different saturation. The below ideas are too dark/have too much contrast. - Cuivienen 14:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

3I perfer this:

Extratropical Edit - (#0099DD) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (white) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#FFFFCC) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#FFFF66) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#FFCC00)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (#FF9900) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (#FF0000) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#CC0000) Edit

--24.83.116.120 21:06, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that one is that the links are almost invisible in the Cat 5 and Extratropical categories, which was the problem with the original colors... Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 21:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And REALLY strong blue. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 21:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

4What about this?

Extratropical Edit - (aqua) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (white) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#FFFFCC) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#FFFF33) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#FFCC00)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (#FF9900) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (#FF33FF) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#FF3333) Edit

--24.83.116.120 21:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

White is generally bad - it has zero contrast against itself (as a background), it can be misinterpreted as no color at all (or interpreted as Cat 1 in places where color wasn't being used), and in some places means the same as green (we wouldn't want the English maps to be not quite compatible for other languages). A big problem with the existing colors is that there's not enough contrast between Cat 1, 2, and 3. Aqua is bad for lower intensities because it's more bright and eye-catching than the higher categories.

About "dimming", it's not that simple - which way do you dim, and try dimming red for example (see previous reply about this).

About painting only a part of a cell: Restricting colors to such a small proportion of the cell kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

This set of colors has to pass a lot of tests - we have to balance contrast and progression against white, contrast and progression against black-blue (for the maps), avoid white and green, make sure blue links and purple links show up against the color fairly well, make sure things work for colorblind people, make sure the colors are identifiable when not next to each other, make sure all the progressions are intuitive, etc.... I'm not sure we can satisfy all the more-significant functional aspects as well as this "Easter egg" colors thing. Even a couple of the UNISYS colors are "Easter egg". --AySz88^-^ 21:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

5What about this:

Extratropical Edit - (silver) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#99FF00) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#FFFFCC) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#FFFF99) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#FFCC66)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (#FF9900) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (#FF3399) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#FF0000) Edit

--24.83.116.120 21:35, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

With the blue muted, all of the test colors generally work for me, except Cat 3 & 4 on the latest as being indistinguishable purples. AySz88, why does painting a portion of the cell (I'm referring to the stats page only) defeat the purpose? You're able to tell at a glance the intensities, without making it blinding. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 21:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the function is to allow people to browse through the major entries first, I think. --AySz88^-^ 23:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not understanding how a small square of color in some of the stats cells interferes with that, though I am seeing a difficulty in the readability of the smaller cells with it, so I'm withdrawing my idea there. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 02:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant was, it'd be harder to look for entries using color first as a browsing method. --AySz88^-^ 15:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What about now?--24.83.116.120 23:45, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Better, but still hard to distinguish. I prefer your middle effort, or either of Tito's. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 02:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't recommend cramming so many categories into the hot side of the spectrum - the contrast becomes really bad (on the map, especially). (bleh, we don't have an article on hot/warm/cool/cold colors) --AySz88^-^ 02:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can see how dark pink/red and midway between yellow & orange and orange would be difficult on the tracking map. Tito's colors seem good for the map, though they're mostly in the hot side of the spectrum. I wouldn't (and didn't) mind green for TD myself, though some equate green with good. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 03:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Now?--24.83.116.120 04:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My own opinion is that the aqua is a better color choice for a TD than the the light green, and that the colors for a TS and cat 1 should be somewhat more saturated. Beyond that, my big request is that you do not use white (as is currently the case). I really, really prefer that as the neutral color, as is now the case. BTW - As indicated above I have returned the previous level of saturation. With the colors now muted, that format is much easier on the eyes. Hopefully we can now devise a set of colors that are both table and tracking-chart freindly. In any case, it is good to be away from the old color scheme. --EMS | Talk 05:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(discussion moved down from above)

I strongly prefer the old colors. They were much clearer and more intense, and more "pure" colors. CrazyC83 04:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't that part of the problem? The wrong ones (TD and TS) were intense, while the higher categories (1, 2) were not? --AySz88^-^ 05:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm someone with a strong interest thought not a strong knowledge about hurricanes, and the current color system to my untrained eye seems really bland and unintuitive. I prefer it both on the track maps and on the button bar. I can understand people not wanting it being blindingly bright on the large backgrounds of the stats table. Can we reduce it to a small portion of the cell background here with the old color scheme with a non-tileable picture or some other method? Or retain the new colors only for the stats table, reverting colors for the button bars? --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 09:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The new colors make me want to hurl. I was against the easter-egg colors from the start. I went to revert back to the old colors but I couldn't find when they were changed. This is ridiculous. Those colors cannot stay. This may sound obnoxious but I will not shut up until they are changed. The idea that these colors would be better than the ones we had is just absurd. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 20:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The new colors are not at all better, if the idea were to make it more clear witch storm were strongest. The TD and category 5 have nearly the same color. In addition, on the 2005 atlantic discussion page it have been mentioned they are very color-blind unfriendly. Jonatanj 11:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

TD and 5? --AySz88^-^ 15:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you are colorblind, could you please mention which colors or pairs are problematic? --AySz88^-^ 15:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

People trying to improve the palette can try using my sandbox; it has a few ways of previewing the results. You might want to use "replace all" in Word for some things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AySz88/Sandbox#New --AySz88^-^ 15:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

6I prefer the one the guest did:

Extratropical Edit - (#0099DD) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (white) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#FFFFCC) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#FFFF66) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#FFCC00)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (#FF9900) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (#FF0000) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#CC0000) Edit

The only that would really need changing is the link color of Category 5 hurricanes. White on a brown wouldn't make a problem. The blue is very hard to read but otherwise this one is very nice. User:HurricaneCraze32

I do not find this to be useful:

White is used as the depression color, which causes confusion and conflicts. (I like white as the neutral color for my table.)
There is not enough contrast between the successive hues between tropical depression and category 1. That diminishes the effectiveness of the colors.
The category 5 color is way too dark, making black text within it difficult to read.

Please see my suggestion below. --EMS | Talk 17:14, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually i meant white text on the brown background User:HurricaneCraze32

Another proposal[edit]

7Here is my idea for a color scheme:

Extratropical Edit - (silver) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#E1CCFF) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (aqua) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#C0E000) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#FFFF66)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (#FFCC66) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (#FF9900) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#FF0000) Edit

Hopefully this can obtain the start of a consensus. I seem to have a good color progression here with what I hope is some reasonable contract. The category 1 color is a dirty green as opposed to a light green. Perhaps it can be tweaked some more, but at least it is now not a pretty "it's OK" kind of green.

To Hurricane Eric: Please do not revert the colors back. That is not the way forward, and I do want to move forward with this. Look at it this way: Sometimes the issue needs to be forced. I think that a consensus can be forgred here, but you need to be part of that process instead of a barrier to change. --EMS | Talk 17:07, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Im not colorblind, I just mentioned for another user. I see two way to improve: Colors (directly) from blue to red, like the symbol colors from cold to hot. The objection could be, that clear blue is to strong. The other way is from graytype to red, whitch may would be better. The worst thing is to many clear colors whit no proces walking from TD to C5... Jonatanj 23:07, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one more idea[edit]

8I tried to take into consideration most of the thoughts in this discussion. Here's what I came up with. It might seem a bit rainbow-colorful all together, but try to imagine them individually and they seem pretty recognizable. I also only used the basic hex codes. Let me know what you guys think --Subterfugest 00:18, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Extratropical Edit - (#CCCCCC) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#99CCFF) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#99FF99) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#FFFF00) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#FFCC00)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (#FF9900) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (#FF0000) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#FF00FF) Edit

The problem with that is that you can't really tell the difference between Cat 2 and 3. --24.83.116.120 00:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

They are similar, but even the NHC has had difficulty with the cat2/3 difference (e.g. hurricane wilma while crossing florida). I think anyone looking at the color would be able to understand that the storm was in the cat 2-3 range, and from there read the text that states whether it was "2" or "3" exactly. Right? --Subterfugest 01:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Pure" red behind black text (Category 4) is hard to read - I'm personally having some trouble with the pink (5) also. TS is green; people don't like that (though I don't personally care very much about it at low intensities).

Perhaps the 2-3 difficulty can be abated by making 2 yellow and using a 'dark' yellow (see above) for 1? --AySz88^-^ 03:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Another proposal[edit]

9While I think that avoiding green is not really that much of an issue, I've designed another scheme, based on my second proposal, that specifically avoids white. The Category 1 color is slightly off-white, but noticeable enough for it to stand out on a white background. I've also tested it on the {{HurricaneActive2}} template, as you can see to the right:

Extratropical Edit - (silver) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#80ccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#80ffff) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#ffffee) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#ffffaa)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (yellow) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (orange) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#ff4343) Edit

Thoughts? Comments? Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 20:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

10It's a little difficult to distinguish between three different shades of yellow.... Perhaps make 3 a light orange?

Extratropical Edit - (silver) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#88ccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (#88ffff) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#ffffee) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#yellow)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffdd88) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (orange) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#ff4444) Edit

I'm not sure off-white gets very far from white, since it's only 1/16th of the way to yellow.... --AySz88^-^ 22:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

11What about this one:

Extratropical Edit - (999999) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (99CCCC) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (99FFFF) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (FFFFFF) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (FFFF99)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (FFCC00) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (FF6600) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (FF0000) Edit

Know it looks like one of those Tito have maked, but those are changed a bit. I have tried to make a system in the difference between the colors. May Tito's red for cat5 would be better...Jonatanj 22:18, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A compromise?[edit]

12

Extratropical Edit - (999999) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#E1CCFF) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (aqua) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#C0E088) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#ffffaa)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (yellow) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (orange) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#ff4343) Edit

This is the top from my previous suggestion, the bootom from the first proposal of the previous section, and a more brownish category 1 color. It seems to me that it provides for good color progression, and avoids the use of white (which I find to be very undesirable). --EMS | Talk 04:04, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, no, no. The grey is too dark. The aqua is too bright (its the brightest color, and definitely shouldnt be). Most people are in agreement that the color green should not be used, and even so it looks awkward for Category 1 where you have used it. You chose a vomit green. There is not enough difference between the yellows for Cat 2 and Cat 3. The pure red you chose for Cat 5 is too intense to read text over (it hurts the eyes). We're looking for a good progression of colors that aren't too dark, aren't too pastel light, aren't too intense, and can be easily associated with their respective storm classification. No green, white or black, and we should also try to stick with the basic 216 hex color codes as much as possible. Someone earlier stated that these colors have to fit a very tight set of criteria, and this is definitely the case. It is certainly demanding, but I am confident that we can find the right color scheme. --Subterfugest 05:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Think its time to begin numbering the suggestions: Think this one is number 13:

Extratropical Edit - (CCCCCC) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (99CCCC) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (99FFFF) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (FFFFFF) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (FFFF99)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (FFFF00) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (FF9900) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (FF0000) Edit

Changes from the earlier version: Brighter gray, greater difference between cat4 and cat5. All colors are websafe (216) Jonatanj 14:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

14 Just for reference:

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (e1ccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (ccccff) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (e0daa0) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffffaa)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffdd00) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ffa500) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (e79393) Edit

This is the current set of colors.

Does the "websafe" thing matter anymore? The woman that "created" the websafe palette says it's now safe to ignore it. --AySz88^-^ 16:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

15

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (ccccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (aaccff) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (ffffcc) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffff33)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffdd88) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ffa500) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ff6666) Edit

Here's what I came up with now; it adds a light orange to get rid of the dark yellow, and gets rid of the violet. --AySz88^-^ 17:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it also changed the cat-5 color back to a somewhat-whitened red (I'm surprised at how sudden the shift to pink is as you add blue and green). --AySz88^-^ 20:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is this better?[edit]

16

Extratropical Edit - (lightgrey) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (aqua) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (lightgreen) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (yellow) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (orange)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (red) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (violet) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (pink) Edit

Well I guess you don't want an overpowering color for a depression.

17

Extratropical Edit - (lightgrey) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (lightblue) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (lightgreen) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (yellow) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (orange)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (red) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (violet) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (pink) Edit

Violet works good. It's purple that you don't want. If you type violet insted of putting a number on it you aren't gonna get purple. Below is what it would look like with purple.

18

Extratropical Edit - (lightgrey) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (lightblue) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (lightgreen) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (yellow) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (orange)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (red) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (violet) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (pink) Edit

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tcatron565 (talk • contribs) .

Please look at the above posts for the list of criteria we're working with - we shouldn't use pink or green. --AySz88^-^ 17:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's going to be a lot of problems with the number of "easter egg" and high-intensity colors. --AySz88^-^ 17:52, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I DON'T EVEN THINK WE NEEDED TO CHANGE THE COLORS!!!!!!! THEY WERE JUST FINE User:Tcatron565

Isnt it about time to pick some out as nominies and make an election? Jonatanj 18:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You know 17 looks the best to me. Everybody else's look too dark like you're about to die.Tcatron565

Nominations[edit]

I agree with Tcatron565 that the old colors were just fine, but I only visited the stats article once until the bland, unintuitive colors (in my opinion) showed up on the button bar. Since I was viewing a previous edit, I hoped that was now gone, but it wasn't. I followed Talk:2005 Atlantic hurricane season to here.

I'm not passionate about whatever colors get decided. Right now I'm marveling at all the pretty colors. :) But here's my nominations.

I vote for 1,2,5,12,13 and 15.

If I can vote only for one, I choose #1 from Tito xd. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 19:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

15 - Good progression of hues, strengthens current color scheme, text can still be read in its red, does not use white, and it looks like a consensus can be build around it. [I'll let my last suggestion (12) be my second choice]. --EMS | Talk 20:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

15, as it's mine. But this is just a straw poll, right? We're trying more for consensus than just majority. --AySz88^-^ 20:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Well, best result would be a consensus right here. But at the least we'll clarify which out of these many color bars we like/don't like and why. Is there a procedure for this sort of thing other than coming to a consensus? (Psst. I still like the original colors. :) --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 20:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Saffir–Simpson Hurricane Scale
TD	TS	1	2	3	4	5

For reference, to the right are the original colors.

--AySz88^-^ 20:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we've all agreed that the color for extratropical should be grayish, ideally #cccccc. Then we can't agree from there... :) Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 21:08, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agree on silver is common for the ekstratropical and i think the CCCCCC works best, can we agree on that? Is it best to continue with the colors for the individual storms or take all the rest as one..? Otherwise I will nominate number 13..

The comment above me is by Jonatanj, who gives a good idea that we might be able to go level by level.

I don't mind light/dirty green or white for TS/TD, but apparently some do. If we eliminate those,

TD appears to be dull light blue, aqua or dull light purple.

TS has the same possibilities and really light/dirty yellow. Thoughts? --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 21:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, ideally the TS/TD should be on the cool end of the spectrum, and the hurricanes should be on the hot end, to distinguish them from the storms. Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 22:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) We might want to go by tiers (TD/TS, then 1-2, then 3-5). Personally, I was reserving hot colors to the hurricanes. I don't really like aqua due to its brightness with TD/TS; otherwise anything that works. --AySz88^-^ 22:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

More suggestions[edit]

{Carriage return). I just spent two hours looking at the colors, splitting hairs between #ff and #fe, and here's what I came up with:

19

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (88ccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (00faf4) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (ffffcc) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffff33)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffdd88) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ffa500) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ff5555) Edit

It is a mix between 15 and 2. I used AySz88's hurricane colors, adjusted the Cat 5 red to make it just a tad deeper, and I used the colors I proposed for the TD/TS, making the aqua a little bit darker, per AySz88's comment above. Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 22:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It works. Good color progression, good constrast beween successive colors (cat1/cat2 is the weakest, but looks tenable to me), red hue for category 5, no white. If it is not "inutitive" it ceratinly is easily learnable. However, the red is deep enough that you are starting to have contrast troubles with black. Other that that, I like it. --EMS | Talk 23:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have a slight oppose. I think cat2 seems more intense than cat3, else i think its a god compromise (and not that far from my own...) Update: Funny we are so close to the originals... What were the big problem in the first way? i just gave it attention when those new hurrible colors were used... Jonatanj 00:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Believe it or not, we're a lot closer to the new colors than to the old.

It's a good palette. I'm still a little uncertain about the near-aqua, but it's not as bad as 'pure' aqua. --AySz88^-^ 00:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, the near-aqua isn't very far away.... the aqua is 00ffff, the current is 00faf4. Maybe this (#00f0e0), or is that too "easter egg"? --AySz88^-^ 00:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That color is too dark when placed next to the TD blue. It's hard to maintain a continuum in both color and luminosity, and you'd be surprised at the difference between an HSL luminosity value of 128 to a 120 value! They are extremely sensitive in this area. :( Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 00:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

20[edit]

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (88ccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (00faf4) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (ffffcc) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffff66)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffdd88) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ffa500) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ff6060) Edit

Some more further refinements by taking into account the comments above. Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 00:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I like this one. The colours seem to correspond to the intensity, and it doesn't hurt my eyes. --Shanel 00:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Could the aqua-problem be solved by using my suggestion from no 13, its numbered 99FFFF? Jonatanj 01:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We're trying to make the aqua darker, not lighter... Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 01:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, ~~either way really works to reduce the intensity (which is kinda strange)~~. Or, we could get rid of aqua.... I think used a indigoish color in "15". --AySz88^-^ 01:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gah, I made the same mistake I made last time. The "reduction" in intensity is sensitive to which (light vs dark) background you pick. Lightening might be better for progression, though.... --AySz88^-^ 01:28, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the aqua colors are more indicative of rain more than anything else, that's why I like bluish colors. I was thinking that indigo could be used for subtropical depressions or subtropical storms. Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 01:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The one used in "15" is VERY close to the current TD Jonatanj 01:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Arent we getting to close to TD then? and for what purpose is it going to be darked, isnt it "les significant" there is the goal? Jonatanj 01:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

TD and TS are kinda coupled together, so I don't think doing it strictly one-by-one is a good idea. We might be agreed on 1-5 though. --AySz88^-^ 01:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We are close on 1-5 but to me i still see 2 as more intensa than 3, but if its only to me im willing to give me about that Jonatanj 01:20, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of brightness, cat 2 is more intense. In terms of color progression however there is a smooth change of hue going from the cream of cat 1 to the red of cat 5. The brightness "glitch" is an odd effect, but it makes it so that the cat1/cat2 and cat2/cat3 differences are reasonably pronounced, and that IMO is more important. --EMS | Talk 03:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No nice colors. That excludes purple, especially that light purple, all shades of pink, pale red, baby blue, all the easter egg colors, and discourages violet. I like 1, 2, 6, and 9 with one being my favorite. I detest 14 and 18. My vote would be to combine 2 and 3. I like the blood-red for Category 5 but I don't like the pale dark blue for Extratropical. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 00:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, pure colors would be ideal, but at some point we have to start worrying about contrast issues. That throws out pure red, pure aqua and the almost-unreadable red in 3. Then, we are reserving warm colors to the hurricanes, and having cool colors for the TS/TDs, so that leaves us with a very limited palette to work with. Then you have color-blindness issues, and the track maps... Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 01:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I pretty much have no idea which specific colors you are talking about. 14 was just a copy of the current colors for reference, 18 was an example of what not to do, so those really don't give us much about what you're complaining about. --AySz88^-^ 02:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I vote for number 5. --67.165.126.167 05:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

21[edit]

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (88ccff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (00faf4) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (ffffdd) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffff99)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffcc33) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ffa500) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ff6060) Edit

Trying once more to show how i think the progression from 2 to 3 should be. cat 1 is adjusted sligtly to... Jonatanj 12:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be agreeable to keep the old "pure" color scheme for the track maps and button bars, since the color amount is small and so less intense for the eyes?

I'm guessing most of you believe they all should be uniform across Wikipedia (track maps, button bars, stats cell backgrounds, and any future use) so as to not invite confusion.

As I've mentioned, I have a real nostalgia for the old colors when used sparingly, as they seemed to clearly communicate cyclone intensity during and after its passage. I acknowledge but don't understand the aversion to green, as it was simply another pure color that instantly said Tropical Storm. While the original colors have light yellow for Cat-2, the newer ones have a light and dark cream, or a light & dark yellow, and a light & dark orange.

Are they pretty easy to tell apart and I could probably get used to it? Yes. But they're less... vivid for the reasons they're easy on the eyes in the stats table. What do you think, sirs (and ma'am's)? --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 13:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I find that they cat2 yellow of scheme 20 and the cat 3 shade of scheme 21 are the ones that work best for me. The other colors I approve of. Perhaps you could try mocking-up a Katrina GIF with that scheme. --EMS | Talk 15:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It might be difficult to differentiate between 3 and 4 in 21 with a map with data points far apart, or when they're placed far apart on a table. (I also can't tell between 1 and 2 at all for 21....) ~~The yellow might need to be more yellow if we go with something like 20.~~ (The yellow used for the 20 picture is wrong.... it should be ffff33, ffff5a was used) The aqua might need to be whitened for progression reasons, it looks like it skips a category right now. --AySz88^-^ 16:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hold on, I think they're all a little off.... :( I don't have Photoshop, so I can't fix it... --AySz88^-^ 17:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

EMS, here's your Cat2 yellow of 20 and Cat3 more orangey of 21. Btw, technically they're all PNG's, which is what the original is too.

AySz88, 20's yellow is ffff66, as indicated in the chart and verified by using the eyedropper on the altered picture in Photoshop. I entered the color hex values for all colors, though I've never fiddled with Photoshop's default color profiles, so it's possible something's off in the whole program. I'm using RGB mode and saved it as PNG no-interlace.

I'm familiar with but not an expert in Photoshop, so if someone wants to guide or check me, or try it themselves, feel free. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 18:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oop, right, but it still doesn't match what it should be. For 20, the colors in the picture are:

7EC6FF, 00F9F3, FFFFC6, FFFF5A, FFD97E, FF9C00, FF5454

#20 says they should be:

88CCFF, 00FAF4, FFFFCC, FFFF66, FFDD88, FFA500, FF6060

I don't know why that's happening...it's not off by much. --AySz88^-^ 19:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What program are you using to check the colors in the picture? --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 19:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Window Spy feature in AutoHotkey (though it prints R, G, and B in the reverse order). It verifies the colors correctly if I hover over the table, so it should be working correctly. --AySz88^-^ 19:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Many of those programs are determining the color by a 5x5 pixel average... Actually i think the colors from 21 are quite god, try tjecking the original from the Katrina article for reference. Actually i dont se the 1-5 as a problem on the map, TD and TS are actually harder to see the difference between... Jonatanj 20:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I know that the Window Spy isn't using any sort of average. I'm not sure you'd get anywhere trying to compare your colors to the original colors, since the original set has been demonstrated as quite bad. --AySz88^-^ 20:47, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with 21 is that the difference between Cat 3 and Cat 4 is very hard to discern. The aqua can be lightened just a little bit, as making it too white can cause problems on the white article backgrounds. Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 01:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

22[edit]

Tropical depression Edit - (779bEE) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (5ebaff) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (dbFF88) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (F2E182)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffcc33) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ffa500) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ff6060) Edit

Extratropical has no use with us as no advisories are released when storms are extratropical. NSLE _(T+C+CVU) 02:13, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, but it can help when between tropical periods for a storm that regenerates (i.e. Ivan) CrazyC83 23:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

23[edit]

Ok, I think I got rid of the brightness problem in 20 now...

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (5ebaff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (00faf4) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (ffffcc) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffe775)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffc140) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ff8f20) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ff6060) Edit

Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 02:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is really good! --Subterfugest 05:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Made a storm track with the color scheme, think it work quite well... Jonatanj 14:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still noting the same off-by-a-little problem, but eh. It seems to work well. --AySz88^-^ 18:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a photoshop test too, which is close enough to get an idea. jdorje has the original program used to create the images and might be able to address the slightly off colors thing. Nice job, Titoxd, Jonatanj and everyone! It looks pretty intuitive and hopefully has addressed most if not all of the concerns. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 20:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So can we take it out for a spin and see how it works now? Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 20:43, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think so. - Cuivienen 20:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've updated the colors now. The aqua now looks a bit too dark, so it might need a bit of lightening, but overall, it's fine. I noticed we have two redundant color schemes; perhaps one should be deleted? Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 21:29, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have some trouble distinguishing cat2/3/4 which are all basically orange. However I'm making up the track maps which I'll upload to [1] so we can see how they look (currently that includes the old "new" color scheme). These colors below are correct? Jdorje 21:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

   COLOR(0x5e, 0xba, 0xff), /* DEP */
   COLOR(0x00, 0xfa, 0xf4), /* TS */
   COLOR(0xff, 0xff, 0xcc), /* cat1 */
   COLOR(0xff, 0xf1, 0x75), /* cat2 */
   COLOR(0xff, 0xc1, 0x40), /* cat3 */
   COLOR(0xff, 0x8f, 0x20), /* cat4 */
   COLOR(0xff, 0x60, 0x60) /* cat5 */

Cat 2 should be:

   COLOR(0xff, 0xe7, 0x75), /* cat2 */

Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 21:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The color in the table was wrong. I fixed it. Jdorje 01:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Done. See [2]. Jdorje 02:30, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Do you need some help uploading them to WP? Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 02:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to upload them until the new colors are finalized. Jdorje 03:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I find the category 4/5 transition to be on the weak side, but this overall it seems to work. However, it the category 3/4/5 contrast can be heightenned, that would be nice. --EMS | Talk 21:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These colors are better than what we had, but that's a pretty low bar. The original colors were the best of the three. The color for Cat 2 is the color of Dog vomit. Could we find another color for that one please? The colors for Tropical storm and Cat 5 are too kind, they need to be a bit more vivid. If I'd see it in a maternity ward (ts) or a at a Gay pride parade (Cat 5), I don't want to see it here. Nothing against momma's baby boy or Joe Blo's sexuality, but their colors can't represent hurricanes. The colors for Cat 1 is okaaay. I like the colors for Cats 3 and 4. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 00:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon me, but doesn't more vivid for yellow, blue and red equal harder on the eyes in the stats table? I like the old colors too, but I find this a reasonable compromise between hard on the eyes and dull/unintuitive.

If you have an alternate color spectrum that's to your liking but isn't hard on the eyes, present it for discussion. If you have a perspective beyond dog vomit, maternity ward and Gay pride parade color for keeping the original colors, in your and my opinion the best of the three (original, Easter egg colors & current one on the table), present that too. --MeekSaffron ^{(Jaffa,Tree!)} 05:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hey! If you look at [3] you can get some really great ideas. It kind of looks like #17, but different. If you look in the little box that says Storm CategoriesTcatron565

You'll get complaints about the pink for Category 5, for example. --AySz88^-^ 23:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so here's a new idea. How about this, we can have a poll from Jan. 1-Jan. 31. We could count up the votes at the end and the top 2 get back into the vote from Feb. 1-Feb. 28. Then the winner is what the colors are for the rest of the year. Then we can do the same thing each year. A new batch of colors! What do you think?!Tcatron565

WP:NOT a democracy. No voting. Please. NSLE _(T+C+CVU) 03:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why Not may I ask you NSLE!Tcatron565

We are here to create an encyclopedia, not a community, not a democracy. No voting. Straw polls are fine, but NO VOTING. NSLE _(T+C+CVU) 04:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We're aiming for something quite a bit more than a (democratic) majority, actually - Consensus. --AySz88^-^ 04:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's exactly what's going on at the top! People voting for which one to use. And besides, it doesn't have to be annual. We can use it more than this year! Tcatron565

Voting does not help in trying for consensus. Discussion does. --AySz88^-^ 04:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree...I'm just surprized someone didn't suggest the blink and marquee html tags for Cat 5 ;) We are blessed. Wikipedia doesn't allow the sacred blink tag... ;)

Hopquick 08:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You want to know what I think Wikipedia?!! THE COLORS WERE JUST FINE!!!!! YOU KNOW I GOT CONFUSED TODAY BECAUSE THE INFOBOX OF ZETA WAS AQUA AND I THOUGHT, IT WAS A TROPICAL DEPRESSION AND MY OTHER FAVORITE HURRICANE WEBSITE WAS GREEN WHICH MEENS TROPICAL STORM. I KNOW THE COLORS WERE DIFFERENT BEFORE BUT AT LEAST I COULD FIGURE OUT THE DIFFERENCE! THE COLORS ARE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE. IF YOU HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE COLORS BEFORE, SUCK IT UP! I HAD TO DEAL WITH THE COLOR CHANGE OF THE WEBSITES, AND SO DO YOUTcatron565

<--

Please calm down. I'm afraid shouting isn't going to get you very far. --AySz88^-^ 17:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone pleasre put the names of the colors of 23 down, I was trying to do something with the colors, but I need the names. Wikipedia doesn't except numbers and letters on this thing, which it should. Tcatron565

I have to say, Tcatron made a point. I see no fuss over the colors. Who honestly cares? Just leave the colors as is. Weatherman90 15:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Considering people have been working on this for weeks, I'd say quite a few people care. --AySz88^-^ 16:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

~~I'm afraid I don't care about you and your thoughts.~~ Tcatron565

One more outburst will get your blocked for incivility. First and ONLY warning. NSL E _(T+C+CVU) 01:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Cat 2/3/4 need more contrast. It's really hard to tell which is which, especially on the button bars. I made this to try to correct that.--WolFox (★Talk★) ^Contribs 23:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

24[edit]

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (5ebaff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (00faf4) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (ffffcc) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffe775)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffb300) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ff6f1a) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ee2100) Edit

I'm sorry, but your hurricanes are just colors that are getting darker as the category is getting bigger. 1, 2, and 3 look almost the same. 4 and 5 also almost look the same.

The colors for 1 and 2 were not changed. Those are the exact same ones from #23. Doesn't #23 also have colors that are just getting darker? I did increase the contrast between 2/3/4, at least. I was worried that 4 and 5 might be too similar. Anyone else have any ideas?--WolFox (★Talk★) ^Contribs 05:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The color for 5 is too dark, especially with a blue link. I'm not sure what you mean by "just getting darker" - in terms of contrast, difference in value and saturation is more important than hue, I think, especially if we want a progression of hues (especially when we're cramming lots of colors into the warm side of the spectrum). I'll go convert the colors in 23 to HSV, but I'm pretty sure that every color's hue is different and progresses. --AySz88^-^ 05:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hues for #23:

60°
50°
41°
30°
0°

Hmm, I guess there is a little room to spread out the hues a little (at 20). I don't know of a good place to convert from HSV back to RGB, though. --AySz88^-^ 05:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's Another one.25[edit]

(by HurricaneCraze32)

Extratropical Edit - (779bEE) Edit

Subtropical depression Edit - (violet) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (#E1CCFF) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (lightgreen) Edit

Subtropical Storm Edit - (#ffe775) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (#ffdd88) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (#ffffaa)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (pink) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (#ff8f20) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (#ff4343) Edit

Dont have to include subtropicals but oh well.HurricaneCraze32 13:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

System 26: addresses complaints[edit]

Extratropical Edit - (cccccc) Edit

Tropical depression Edit - (5ebaff) Edit

Tropical storm Edit - (00faf4) Edit

Category 1 hurricane Edit - (ffffcc) Edit

Category 2 hurricane Edit - (ffe775)Edit

Category 3 hurricane Edit - (ffc140) Edit

Category 4 hurricane Edit - (ff8e0d) Edit

Category 5 hurricane Edit - (ff6060) Edit

Only one change: Category 4 drops a shade, to make it stand out from Category 5 while not too close to Category 3. CrazyC83 18:44, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Color system[edit]

See Template_talk:Storm colour cat5. The subtropical and extratropical colors are removed (we don't need colors for these since they have wind speeds that can be fit into the categories, thus getting one of the other colors; the infoboxes and pictures have other ways of showing the type of the storm now), and {{storm colour unknown}} is added (see 1970 Bhola cyclone for why this is needed). Jdorje 20:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which number is the one were using as of right now? Tcatron565 8:23, 02 May 2006 (CST)

It is number 23.--Nilfanion 12:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]