Talk:2010 League of Ireland Premier Division

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Limerick FC[edit]

The year of formation for Limerick FC was given as 1937 but this is a mistake. The current Limerick FC was founded in 2007 as Limerick 37 and later changed its name to Limerick FC the name of a previous Limerick club, but they are two different clubs. I have updated this error as it was factually incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.198.151.37 (talk) 12:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Year of formation for Derry City given incorrectly. It's 2010 (maybe 2009). The FAI acknowledge that the current Derry city is a brand new club. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.198.151.37 (talk) 05:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/electric-launch-to-new-season-2082480.html?

Top Scorers[edit]

Any reason why we shouln't have a list of top goal scorers.Gero13 (talk) 15:56, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editing[edit]

could someone please put statistics for the season at the end of the page and put club personel and sponsers where club info is —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.12.218 (talk) 20:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cork City FORAS Co-op[edit]

Cork City FORAS Co-op competed in the League of Ireland in 2010. This will remain a fact regardless of any future name change. Onetonycousins (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cork City FORAS Co-op is the temporary name under which Cork City Footbal Club compete. Fact. --Hsetne (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's opinion, not fact. Let's see an FAI reference. Regardless, this article deals with the 2010 season and the name Cork City FORAS Co-op will be used, similar to the use of Ambrosiana instead of Internazionale in the Serie A season articles of the time. Although they didn't let their club die, it was just an enforced name change, the precedent stands. Onetonycousins (talk) 21:22, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an opinion, it is fact. While our first team competed under this temporary name (disputing the name is temporary is like disputing the earth is round), our youth teams owned by FORAS continued to compete under the name Cork City Football Club. Since we're allowed to trade as Cork City Football Club and own all the intellectual property of Cork City Football Club this isn't an issue. Also, "Cork City" and "Cork City FC" are acceptable short names for Cork City Football Club, and for our temporary name Cork City FORAS Co-op. --Hsetne (talk) 22:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You've completely ignored the precedent and the reasoning behind the name Cork City FORAS Co-op being used on this page and continue to make the same edit which is not supported by the references on the page. You're obviously determined to pretend that you didn't let your club die and rewrite history. You should be banned for vandalism. Onetonycousins (talk) 00:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not vandalism, Cork City FORAS Co-op is the temporary name, and "Cork City" and "Cork City FC" are acceptable short names for Cork City Football Club, and for our temporary name Cork City FORAS Co-op.
The club purchased the rights to the name "Cork City Football Club" from the liquidators and will compete under this name next season.[1]
Cork City FC never ceased to exist as the former holding company Cork City Investments Fc Ltd was still in existence during its liquidation period when the name and intellectual property were purchased, and the underage teams continued to exist under the name while owned and funded by the fans.[2]
It's clear the fans of other football clubs have agendas against Cork City, Derry City, and Limerick, and have taken out their frustrations on wiki. Having sly digs claiming the club died is factually wrong, the former holding company was wound up, this has happened many times in League of Ireland football as anyone who has an interest knows. From the references above, the club is allowed to trade as Cork City Football Club. --Hsetne (talk) 06:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The last update edit summary should read "entered factually correct information". Typo. --Hsetne (talk) 06:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That Ambrosiana-Inter precedent hasn't been ignored. "Cork City" and "Cork City FC" are acceptable short names for Cork City Football Club, and for our temporary name Cork City FORAS Co-op. --Hsetne (talk) 06:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, while discussing, stop edit warring about the facts in question. Not only it is not helpful and significantly hampers the finding of a consensus, it is also bad etiquette, disrupts the encyclopaedia and thus is a punishable offence. Per Wikipedia best practice, I have restored a version resembling the status quo prior to the content dispute. Please sort out your dispute first before altering the article any further, and refrain from edit warring in order to avoid a block.
On topic: All reliable sources for the 2010 season, including the League of Ireland official website and RTÉ, call the club "Cork City FORAS Co-op", so this is what the club should be referred as for this season; anything else is misleading and factually incorrect. Further, and as a general note, any name changes for clubs will be mentioned in the season articles where the change will first be applied. For example, if the club from Cork has plans to enter the same team under a different name in 2011, this fact will be mentioned in the "Teams" section of the 2011 League of Ireland article, not this one. Hsetne, I would also like to point you to WP:NPOV, especially if you are referring to the Cork football team as "we".
As for the founding dates of certain teams, WP:FOOTY has a clear-cut consensus on this matter, but I am currently not able to recall it. It would thus be helpful for your dispute if you raise the question at WT:FOOTY. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 09:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those sources are of course trumped by the club's own website, which largely refers to itself as just Cork City (see the main banner, and perhaps more relevant to this page, the league table here) and Wikipedia should follow the same pattern. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The club website trumps all other sources. It was noted in the previous version of this article that this season the temporary name of the team competing in the LoI is Cork City FORAS Co-op, but it's grand to call the club Cork City FC or Cork City, referring to the club by these names is not factually incorrect. While the club temporarily doesn't compete under the name Cork City Football Club in the LoI, it's not factually incorrect to call the club Cork City Football Club because the club can trade using this name. As for founding dates of certain teams, why has the Limerick founding date only been changed in this article? There is no reason why the previous version of this article which referred to Cork City FORAS Co-op as Cork City FC or Cork City, which also used the full version of the temporary name (Cork City FORAS Co-op in one of the paragraphs) shouldn't be allowed. Soccerway.com, one of the sources for the league tables and stats on this page uses Cork City, as does the official club website, which is CorkCityFC.net, and the address of the club starts with "Cork City FC". Can anyone explain why they think the official website of Cork City is completely wrong and the club can't be called Cork City FC or Cork City? --Loitid (talk) 12:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone explain to me why the club's website (a biased source) should "trump" all other sources? Soccer-holic has clearly explained the procedure for dealing with this. Onetonycousins (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because the official club website of any football club is an official source of information about the club. Official club websites give information straight from the horses mouth so to speak. Biased? Well almost every source can be biased to some extent. There are lots of items that only appear on club websites because other media aren't interested in publishing it. The League of Ireland, and in particular the First Division, gets very little media attention, and even then the media sometimes get things wrong. As said above, Soccerway.com, one of the sources for the league tables and stats on this page uses Cork City. Not every media outlet has gotten around to changing this.
Here's a few examples of Cork City being called Cork City in the media:
Referred to as Cork City on the BBC website, 01/10/10: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/9053792.stm
Referred to as Cork City on the BBC website, 13/08/10: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8913617.stm
Referred to as Cork City in the Derry Journal, 01/10/10: http://www.derryjournal.com/derry/Kenny-to-keep-the-faith.6561275.jp
Referred to as Cork City in The Westmeath Independent, 01/10/10:
http://www.westmeathindependent.ie/sport/roundup/articles/2010/09/23/4000279-athlone-town-wont-renew-places-contract-next-season/
Referred to as Cork City on Athlone Town FC's official website, 06/09/10: http://www.athlonetownfc.ie/?p=2373
Referred to as Cork City on football-livescore.co.uk, 01/10/10: http://football-livescore.co.uk/games/2010_10_01/577907a0/ireland-2nd-division/shelbourne-cork-city-livestream-watch-online
Referred to as Cork City FC here: http://www.betbrain.com/football/ireland/1-division/
Referred to as Cork City FC here: http://fussball.wettpoint.com/en/games/756433.html
--Hsetne (talk) 21:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The name "Cork City FORAS Co-op" is actually mentioned in the article as it currently stands too, if you're really that concerned about the full version of the temporary name being present. --Hsetne (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Finn Harps also refer to the club as Cork City on their official website, http://www.finnharps.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=246&Itemid=161 and http://www.finnharps.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=155 and in their match reports here http://www.finnharps.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=303:harps-beaten-in-cork&catid=69:senior-team-match-reports&Itemid=157 --Hsetne (talk) 21:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The League of Ireland (official website) refers to the club as Cork City Foras Co-op and states that it was founded in 2009.[1] Your edits completely contradict this and the references in the article. They are misleading and stink of desperation. Onetonycousins (talk) 00:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The League of Ireland website refers to the club as Cork City FORAS Co-op, this is the full version of the temporary name. While the league website currently says 2009, the official website of the club has the history dating back to 1984. It's not misleading, it is explained in the article, if necessary a more detailed explanation could be put on the page. There is absolutely no problem calling the club Cork City FC or Cork City, which has been done in this article. --Hsetne (talk) 05:15, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Can someone explain to me why the club's website (a biased source) should "trump" all other sources?" Because the club's official website is the definitve resource for establishing what the club's name actually is. In this context, calling it biased is a nonsense. пﮟოьεԻ 57 08:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see Onetonycousins has two issues; 1. The Name; 2. The Year. I think the name issue has been more than adequately dealt with in the discussion, it's clear from reading this article that the team currently competes as Cork City FORAS Co-op, and I don't see any problem with calling the team Cork City or Cork City FC. The year issue, it has been documented that the club bought the name, etc., and now the history on the club website dates back to 1984. I fail to see any problem with the revised article. --Loitid (talk) 13:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The explanations given here are incredibly weak and desperate but I'm tired of wasting time on such a nothing club, so I'll edit the more outrageous aspect of Hsetne's change and leave the desperation changes (statistics, league table, etc.). I'll also refer the above user/users to Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. Onetonycousins (talk) 20:42, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The changes were supported by the official club website. Nothing outrageous, although people who are fans of this league are used to a bit of madness. It's smacks of desperation to claim that the official website is wrong (or that short names for the club are being used) in this situation, complemented by explanations for your reverts, saying "the club died" is factually incorrect, and calling the club "a nothing club" says more about the league really since this club has one of the highest average attendances across both divisions this season despite being 6th in the First Division currently. --Hsetne (talk) 05:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You should be very careful to link an username to an existing person, unless you have a definite prove that the two are the same. It is also bad style to allege any bad attitude towards the one or other club, regardless of who did it. I am still assuming good faith here, thinking that the mishaps came from the heat of the argument, but nevertheless, please stay WP:CIVIL.
On topic: After having read the history of Cork City (and assuming that there are no publicly accessible documents that prove the opposite), and several of the sources given in the preseason section, can it safely be assumed that only the business company behind the club was liquidated back in February 2010, but the club itself continued to exist? If so, the founding date of Cork City (1984) remains intact, as opposite to these of Limerick F.C. (the current club was founded as Limerick 37 in 2007 before being renamed to Limerick F.C. in 2009) and Derry City (the current club was founded in 2010 and, although sharing the name with its predecessor, is a completely different entity). The article should be corrected accordingly.
As for the name, "Cork City FORAS Co-op" seems to be under what the team has been registered at the League of Ireland. Since league organizations in general usually use the names registered to them at the start of a given season in any form of communication, the LoI subsequently uses this name on its homepage, from where it has spread to other reliable sources such as RTÉ. Subsequently, as almost all league season articles are primarily based upon the sources of the governing body and other reliable sources such as well-established media pages, the "Cork City FORAS Co-op" name should be used for this article. This is also backed up by the current crest of the club.
As for the argument "Soccerway does not list the FORAS part" – yes, the page indeed omits that part, but so it does for nearly any form of corporate sponsorship, e.g. for the Greek club Skoda Xanthi [2] or even the Austrian club Red Bull Salzburg [3] where the company name can be considered a legit, distinctive and well-known part of the club name. Soccerway, as a reliable source, thus is an exception from the rule mentioned above due to their own naming policies.
So, to sum it all up, the name "Cork City FORAS Co-op" should be used because this article deals with the league season, not with the history of the club, and the name is the offically registered name of the team at the League of Ireland. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 09:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "Cork City FORAS Co-op" name is used in the article, as are the short versions. I didn't intend to suggest they are the same person, I will delete that comment as it may be seen as that, and as such, inappropriate. The club continued to exist, things were essentially transferred from the old holding company to the new. I think Onetonycousins made the last edit in relation to this and I'm happy to leave things the way they are currently. --Hsetne (talk) 11:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, not quite. My compromise proposal would be as following: Let this season article (and this season article only) read "Cork City FORAS Co-op" whereever it is required, as this is the name under which the team is registered, but nevertheless, link it to the Cork City F.C. article. In other words, replace every occurance of [[Cork City F.C.|Cork City]] with [[Cork City F.C.|Cork City FORAS Co-op]]. This would possibly satisfy both involved parties, especially as the articles on Cork City F.C. and Cork City FORAS Co-op are eventually to be merged, with the latter becoming a redirect to the former. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 11:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll go along with that. Competing under the name Cork City FORAS Co-op is a major event in the clubs history as it's the first time the team competed in the League of Ireland under fans ownership so for this season's article (and this season's article only) I'll change "Cork City" or "Cork City FC" to Cork City FORAS Co-op. All the more reason to merge the other articles. --Hsetne (talk) 14:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cork City FORAS Co-op's year of formation is mistakenly given as 1984. It is 2010. This is acknowledged by the FAI. http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/electric-launch-to-new-season-2082480.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.198.151.36 (talk) 00:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


In relation to the edits by Number 57 being undone, should "Football Club" or "Association Football Club" be added to all the club names in the article since short names are being used for some clubs but not others? Or can short names be used for all clubs? Hsetne (talk) 10:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, the FC/AFC abbreviations are omitted, except in cases where they are needed to distinguish two different clubs.--Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 12:35, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If that's the case then using "Cork City" should be fine as per Number 57's revision. Hsetne (talk) 12:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Where exactly is "FORAS Co-op" the same as "FC"? The FORAS Co-op part is an integral part of the name of this team for this season and thus must not be left out. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 12:48, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"FORAS Co-op" occupied the same part of the old crest as "Football Club" on the new one. "Cork City" was/is the short name for the club (or with the abbreviation "FC" added to it). Hsetne (talk) 12:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly is it "integral"? It takes up the latter two words, like Football Club would (or latter three, in the case of Assoication Football Club). The Cork City part was quite clearly the most important part of the name and it's absurd to think that the club ever intended Foras Co-op to be held in equal importance. As can be clearly surmised, Foras Co-op was chosen as it had the same initials as Football Club, but was the least likely to lead to legal complications, as Foras is the name of the company that owns CCFC. Throughout the season, the club referred itself as Cork City or Cork City FC more often than not in its publications. It was really only the beginning of the season that it referred to itself with its full name - again, to avoid any potential legal issues. Therefore, I see little reason as to why the superfluous Cork City Foras Co-op cannot be shortened to the equally legitimate Cork City. Paz-CCFC (talk) 22:52, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Corkcityfc.net - News - 1 June 2010
  2. ^ Defeat for Cork City FC Youths in Final - 26 April 2010

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