Talk:A History of English Food
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The Guardian
[edit]Of course they disliked the book. They dislike anything written by a Tory. Similar arguments for the praise reviews. Is there no unbiased review? 108.161.29.68 (talk) 23:09, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
- A talk page is not a forum and is therefore not a place for personal views. However, the mix of reviews clearly shows a range of opinions, not only positive and negative but also de Bono's third category, "interesting". Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:52, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Pineapples
[edit]John Tradescant the Younger grew the first pineapples in England.
This statement will likely surprise a lot of people because pineapples do not grow well in colder climates. I think it is obvious that John Tradescant the Younger grew pineapples indoors in a greenhouse, but the text does not say anything about this. This could be a candidate for a footnote if information about growing pineapples in England can be found elsewhere. Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not just a greenhouse, a hothouse with plentiful rotting manure to keep it hot all year. Chiswick Chap (talk) 01:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Great job! Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 04:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Chiswick Chap: I only just learned we have an article on the topic: pineapple pit, also known as a pinery. Viriditas (talk) 18:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Of course we did. Linked. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Chiswick Chap: Thanks for doing such a great job on this. I am pursuing matters related to the history of pineapple cultivation elsewhere. I have run into some issues on other articles which I am both writing about and attempting to fix. In regards to John Tradescant the Younger (1608–1662), his lifetime (if those years are correct) falls outside the normal timeline for pineapple cultivation in Britain. I only bring this to your attention as I am in the process of reviewing the sources on this subject and only just noticed this issue. It turns out that John Tradescant the Younger may not have cultivated pineapple or grown it in a hothouse at this time, as his fellow country-people would eventually do this much later in the 1720s. It seems that he had, instead, obtained a famous specimen of a pineapple which he exhibited indoors at a museum he ran called "The Ark" in south London (Lambeth). There is a list of plants that he grew in pots, but I don't think pineapple was one of them, as the technology for doing so (pineapple pits) and the cultivation techniques were still very much unknown or in their infancy. On the other hand, there is a slim chance that Tradescant the Younger did obtain a live specimen and attempted to grow it at this early stage (which is not out of the ordinary considering the Dutch were already doing this), so the fact remains that part of this tale may still be rooted in actual occurrences. I am still looking into this, but I did want to bring you an update on what I've found so far. To summarize, my concerns are two-fold: 1) the sources in this article may have easily misinterpreted the possession of a dried pineapple sample in the museum as one that he was cultivating; this is not unusual considering he was growing other plants besides pineapple. 2) the alleged cultivation of pineapple in Britain by Tradescant the Younger falls outside the known timeline. Interestingly, the literature is replete with several origin stories for British cultivation of the first pineapple, many of which appear to be shrouded in mist or just outright misinterpretations. In one story, for example, it is said that John Rose, the royal gardener for Charles II, grew the first regional pineapple for the King. However, aside from this painting, there is little evidence this is true. In fact, the painting is considered an allegory, in which either the pineapple is said to represent the duchess (who the king referred to as "my pineapple"), or alternatively, is seen as a rare, imported gift for the king. In any event, aside from the Dutch, there is no evidence that the British and the French, for example, were able to successfully cultivate pineapple until the early to mid 18th century. Viriditas (talk) 22:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Update: the first pineapple cultivated in Britain occurred in 1714, but it was by a Dutchman. Viriditas (talk) 04:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- We're straying into WP:NOTFORUM territory here. This article is about a book and so about its author's (many) opinions, not about external truth, whatever that might be. Further, and crucially, the statement is part of a brief summary of the book's "Contents", so it is in any case not in Wikipedia's voice, beyond the basic claim "the book says this". I've added an "is reported to have" to the text for you, but really we shouldn't be picking and choosing like this, the "Contents" summary should be a completely flat reportage of what the book says. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I apologize if you feel stressed by this discussion, but I see our role as editors as also correcting obvious errors. How we deal with those errors is the subject of this discussion. I run into errors like this all the time. The way I deal with it is by not perpetuating the error, first and foremost. I will often add an explanatory footnote to add clarity in addition to leaving out the erroneous bits. What I now know, is that regardless of "reporting", the author appears to have misunderstood that the person in question only had a dried sample of pineapple, as the fruit was not cultivated until sixty years later. Again, I apologize this is stressful for you. I am currently working on two articles related to the history of pineapple, which is why this has drawn my interest. I suggest leaving this be for the moment, as I will ask disinterested editors for help and leave you out of it. I find this is best when we are heavily invested in a subject. So please, don’t worry about this at all, as I will ask for help from others. Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks for your concern, but this isn't about me. Clearly we don't want to spread error; at the same time, a summary must describe a book's contents. I think we can simply leave Tradescant's name out of this, though I'm taking your unseen researches on trust; sources would have been better. I'll do that now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- You’re right of course. One of the most comprehensive is Fran Beauman’s book, The Pineapple: The King of Fruits (2005). Viriditas (talk) 08:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks for your concern, but this isn't about me. Clearly we don't want to spread error; at the same time, a summary must describe a book's contents. I think we can simply leave Tradescant's name out of this, though I'm taking your unseen researches on trust; sources would have been better. I'll do that now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I apologize if you feel stressed by this discussion, but I see our role as editors as also correcting obvious errors. How we deal with those errors is the subject of this discussion. I run into errors like this all the time. The way I deal with it is by not perpetuating the error, first and foremost. I will often add an explanatory footnote to add clarity in addition to leaving out the erroneous bits. What I now know, is that regardless of "reporting", the author appears to have misunderstood that the person in question only had a dried sample of pineapple, as the fruit was not cultivated until sixty years later. Again, I apologize this is stressful for you. I am currently working on two articles related to the history of pineapple, which is why this has drawn my interest. I suggest leaving this be for the moment, as I will ask disinterested editors for help and leave you out of it. I find this is best when we are heavily invested in a subject. So please, don’t worry about this at all, as I will ask for help from others. Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- We're straying into WP:NOTFORUM territory here. This article is about a book and so about its author's (many) opinions, not about external truth, whatever that might be. Further, and crucially, the statement is part of a brief summary of the book's "Contents", so it is in any case not in Wikipedia's voice, beyond the basic claim "the book says this". I've added an "is reported to have" to the text for you, but really we shouldn't be picking and choosing like this, the "Contents" summary should be a completely flat reportage of what the book says. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Update: the first pineapple cultivated in Britain occurred in 1714, but it was by a Dutchman. Viriditas (talk) 04:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Chiswick Chap: Thanks for doing such a great job on this. I am pursuing matters related to the history of pineapple cultivation elsewhere. I have run into some issues on other articles which I am both writing about and attempting to fix. In regards to John Tradescant the Younger (1608–1662), his lifetime (if those years are correct) falls outside the normal timeline for pineapple cultivation in Britain. I only bring this to your attention as I am in the process of reviewing the sources on this subject and only just noticed this issue. It turns out that John Tradescant the Younger may not have cultivated pineapple or grown it in a hothouse at this time, as his fellow country-people would eventually do this much later in the 1720s. It seems that he had, instead, obtained a famous specimen of a pineapple which he exhibited indoors at a museum he ran called "The Ark" in south London (Lambeth). There is a list of plants that he grew in pots, but I don't think pineapple was one of them, as the technology for doing so (pineapple pits) and the cultivation techniques were still very much unknown or in their infancy. On the other hand, there is a slim chance that Tradescant the Younger did obtain a live specimen and attempted to grow it at this early stage (which is not out of the ordinary considering the Dutch were already doing this), so the fact remains that part of this tale may still be rooted in actual occurrences. I am still looking into this, but I did want to bring you an update on what I've found so far. To summarize, my concerns are two-fold: 1) the sources in this article may have easily misinterpreted the possession of a dried pineapple sample in the museum as one that he was cultivating; this is not unusual considering he was growing other plants besides pineapple. 2) the alleged cultivation of pineapple in Britain by Tradescant the Younger falls outside the known timeline. Interestingly, the literature is replete with several origin stories for British cultivation of the first pineapple, many of which appear to be shrouded in mist or just outright misinterpretations. In one story, for example, it is said that John Rose, the royal gardener for Charles II, grew the first regional pineapple for the King. However, aside from this painting, there is little evidence this is true. In fact, the painting is considered an allegory, in which either the pineapple is said to represent the duchess (who the king referred to as "my pineapple"), or alternatively, is seen as a rare, imported gift for the king. In any event, aside from the Dutch, there is no evidence that the British and the French, for example, were able to successfully cultivate pineapple until the early to mid 18th century. Viriditas (talk) 22:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Of course we did. Linked. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Chiswick Chap: I only just learned we have an article on the topic: pineapple pit, also known as a pinery. Viriditas (talk) 18:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
