Talk:World War II in Albania
|WikiProject Albania||(Rated Start-class, Top-importance)|
I do not understand what this means in the article: "While Albanian writers never tired of pointing out that the communists liberated Albania without a single Soviet soldier setting foot on its territory, they often neglected to mention that the communist forces in Albania were organized by the Yugoslavs and armed by the West or that the Axis retreat from Albania was in response to military defeats outside the country". 1.Did the writer expect Albanians to fight the Italians and Germans until Rome or Berlin? 2.As I learned the history the communists in Albania were not organized by Yugoslavs (if so how can it be explained that the relationships were broken 3 years after the war?).Nervi modest 20:13, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- "Forced to flee Albania, Kelmendi fought in the Garibaldi International Brigade during the Spanish Civil War and later moved to France, where together with other communists, including a student named Enver Hoxha, he published a newspaper."
- According to the article about Enver Hoxha, Hoxha was a student in France in 1930 and soon he dropped out. From 1936 to 1939 Hoxha was a teacher on Albania. Something seems to be wrong. Andres 16:34, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Additionally, according to this article http://www.kosovo.com/sk/history/kosovo_saga/saga12.html "Ali Kelmendi and his few collaborators were forced to leave Albania in 1936. He took part in the Spanish Civil War and in 1939 died in France."
- According to the biography you are citing Enver Hoxha could be called a student from 1930 to 1936 and he met Kelmendi in 1936, leaving France in the same year. So they could cooperate only in 1936. Kelmendi had another, short period in France after his participation in the Spanish civil war and before his death on February 11, 1939. Hoxha seems not to have been to France at his time. Probably the author of the report (and thus our article) confounds Kelmendi's two periods in France. Andres 18:15, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I am planning to move the paragraph about the early Communist movement to the article about Albania between the wars and delete the information about Hoxha's and Shehu's earlier years and add to their biographies what still isn't there. Andres 07:35, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
According to the article, the the name 'Balli Kombetar' translates into National Union. Now, I have a very limited understanding of Albanian, but I do believe that 'Balli' means something like either the head or forehead, but Kombetar (Komtar, in the dialect that I'm familiar with) does mean soemthing like nation. So, if my knowledge of Albanian is correct, Balli Kombetar means something like 'Head of the Nation', not 'National Union'.
I guess, though, that the meanings of various words could be different in the different dialects of Albanian, so that could cause some confusion. --Stamford 00:20, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Greek irredentist movement of Northern Epirus Liberation Front (for highly POV and no veracity claims see talk page here ) has no place here. Maybe you can place it to Greek Resistance article, in the end it claims to be a branch of EDES. Aigest (talk) 13:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Your are simply confusing time periods inventing weird star-trek time travel arguments. I will make it simple:
- NELF was a anti-axis ressistance group in 1942-1943/4, operating in parts of the country's south. The terorist organization NELF -or MAVI- appeared in the '90s. This is a wwii period article and it's obvious by its title.
- It was active in Albanian soil. For example Albanian organizations/battalions participated in Greek resistance (Keshila -an irredentist Albanian-, Ali Demi -a resistance Albanian battalion-) and they are included in the Greek WWII template: Template:Greece during World War II.
- I will give two simple and widely known sources (Petiffer and Vickers) that clearly state that this organization was active in 1942-1943 in Albania:
- The name is adopted from the wartime Northern Epirot organisation which fought as a separate resistance group against the Axis in 1943. It was destroyed in vicious fighting with the German occupiers and the Albanian nationalist forces of the Balli Kombetar, and it played no part in the final liberation of the country.[]
- ...vicious fighting firstly against the Axis occupiers, and secondly in 1944 between the Greek nationalist Northern Epirus Liberation Front and the Albanian nationalist Balli Kombetar partisan fighters." [].
- Quite clear, it should be added. See every nation's WWii era templates/userboxes, apart from Greece. Actually NELF should be deleted from the Greek resistance template and added in the box here.Alexikoua (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- The main problems with NELF came 1. From veracity claim on NELF (see article tags Northern Epirus Liberation Front debates here  and author used as reference of that article accused of POV and not WP:RS here ) 2. From its particular position (according to Ruches he fought even against partisan communists. The main goal being the Liberation of Northern Epirus including from Albanians also, that's why fought with BK and Communist, (if they fought, see above?!) I find it difficult to place it to the Albanian resistance. So no enemy nor ally for both sides, where to place it among belligerents? It does not belong to classical European resistance understanding. While Keshilla could be declared collaborationist, Ali demi was under EAM, so resistance, while NOF fought alongside EAM could be described as resistance movement Ohrana battalions can be classified as collaborationist. In this case MAVI fighting with anybody (according to Ruches) is neither Albanian resistance, neither Albanian collaborator. These are two big problems with it, that's why giving this special case its aim, ethnicity and mostly its activity, I proposed to put it to Greek Resistance, although even there it has its problems Aigest (talk) 13:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- Just calm down. Nelf fought against FNC? It was not a direct conflict (according to Ruches, there was a proposed british agreement between them but problematic), but why you wanna make things complicated? Since it was ideologically branch of EDES it was de facto in the allied side. But, ok, I understand its a bit complicated. How about adding the Thanasis Zikos guys? These were for sure in NFC's side and worth to mention.Alexikoua (talk) 13:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Of course for Zikos' battalion. Maybe a Greeks participation on NFC (or smth like that) article can be created. I am getting other materials on that topic, maybe there was another battalion apart "Thanas Ziko" called "Lefter Talo battalion" I am not sure it was 100% of Greeks, the references point more to a mixed battalion. Also some others have fought under different partisan brigades. Anyway the materials are more memories than scientific work. As soon as I will find smth more RS i will bring it here. Aigest (talk) 13:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- Suppose you are ok adding it in the box right? I know there might were 1-2 more battalions like Zikos, but its tough to find.Alexikoua (talk) 17:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hm, I don't know about the box, nothing against them, on the contrary:) but the point is they were part of the partisan army led by Spiro Moisiu and Enver Hoxha under their direct command. If we were to create a separate article on them would have been better. Then the reference of that article would go here as a section describing the role of the Greek population in Albanian Resistance. Another article would have been the collaboration FNC-EAM. Sometimes there were mutual actions against Nazi forces especially in border areas where close collaboration was more possible. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 07:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
- May be we should not include them, although their actions are to be highly praised, in the end they were just units under the central command EAM/ELAS FNC/UNC whose commanders are on the userboxes. Giving more importance to them (mentioning in userboxes) than to other thousands of resistance fighters who also sacrificed their life against invaders, would be not fair toward their memory, don't you think? They could have their own article however Aigest (talk) 06:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Who moved the page?
- "Albanian partisans liberated...Montenegro and southern Bosnia and Herzegowina"
- Utterly wrong. There is no proof whatsoever of engagement of Albanian Partisans in these parts.
- This edit [] used a wrong edit summary (Balli was anti-Italian and anti-Communist). Since B.C. was anti-communist this isn't a reason to add it together with the communists. Anyway, as per article and bibliography this organization should be placed on both sides of the box.Alexikoua (talk) 10:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the first comment, the article actually says that Albanian Partisans asisted the Yugoslav ones in the liberation of Montenegro and southern Bosnia. However, the article does say that Albanian Partisans liberated Kosovo. This is a big fact and it could/should be better sourced. FkpCascais (talk) 06:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Balli Kombetar as a third faction
- Yep, they were quite inconsistent in their fighting, but so were the communists too. Feel free to make any changes and then discuss them in the talk page. Remember to be bold, we really need to work on WWII articles because they are very little sourced. --Let's talk 14:46, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I believe non of you who discuss here have any real knowledge about WW2 in Albania. Read more books (not only from foreign writers) then start editing pages on Wikipedia. You all are a shame to Albanian history. by Dasius. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 14:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Please feel free to contribute and make something better. --Sulmues (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Saving of Albanian Jews?
The article states: "During the Nazi occupation most Jews in Albania proper were saved, although others in the Kosovo region were deported and killed." and doesn't address the question any further, surely this merits some more in-depth discussion, the main Wiki article on the Holocaust states that Albania actually had more Jews at the end of the war than at the beginning, since Jewish escapees from other parts of Europe were given false papers and allowed to survive. Especially as Albania is/was a Muslim country, this should be treated more prominently (I realize this is an article on Albanian resistance which is not precisely the right header but there doesn't seem to be a general history of Albania during World War Two [I know that means I should create one myself you don't have to remind me.].Historian932 (talk) 02:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Feel free to contribute,just find some proper sources first and add information.The "Holocaust in Albania" article though contains thorough information. Nixious6
Proposition to add an "Italian invasion" heading
There is very little information regarding the background,I propose to add a new heading about the Italian invasion and the local resistance leading to the communist and nationalist resistance.Anyone disagree? Nixious6 —Preceding undated comment added 12:10, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I want to add a section in the article about Kosovo and Macedonia including information about the Vulnetari and the Balli Kombetar's activity there.Any objections? Euripides ψ (talk) 21:31, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Provided that there will be no severe pov-pushing like the current information the article offers, this sound a fine proposal. For example I wonder why Fischer, an expert in WWII Albanian topics is completely absent in this article. For example the following statements should be an integrall part of the article:
So despite later mythology, Hoxha and his Partisans did only very limited damage to the Germans. They were rarely able to hold fixed positions if those positions threatened German lines of communications or German security in general. The large areas which Partisans controlled by late 1944 were generally ones in which the Germans had little interest. The largest battle took place in late October 1944 when the Germans had all but withdrawn from Albania.
Although the pacification of Albania through the construction of an independent regime with prestige and its own military authority largely eluded the Germans, they were able to hold the strategic points in Albania with a small number of troops, a number which steadily declined throughout the course of 1944. And the German army was able to withdraw, essentially unmolested with only moderate losses (about 2,400 with another 1,000 unaccounted for) over the period of the entire occupation.
The Germans could spare only about one third of the troops Italy had found it necessary to station in Albania — approximately 36,000 mostly garrison troops many of whom had been prisoners of war before being persuaded to join the German army.
To begin with the infobox the numbers are clearly out of reality. Pearson as a tertiary journal is widely critized for his way to be based on partisan material. To make a brief comparison there is a claim of 600,000 occupation troops, while Fischer offers a limited number of 36,000 German troops which equalals one third of the Italian troops: doing the math we habe a total of 158k German&Italian occupation troops in contrast to the extraordinary 600k.
A similar discrepancy is evident in the casaulties infobox field: we 3,4000 German losses (included non-recorded) per Fischer as opposed to the supposed 26,595 total Axis loses by the Albanian resistance in the current article.Alexikoua (talk) 08:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Merge Liberation of Tirana
There was an article that was created that has no background information and seems as if it might be good to merge into this article.
One problem is that the only source is a blog, so it likely would need to be properly sourced and rewritten a bit.
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