Talk:Papal Mass

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Papal Mass restored?

I have just completed extensive editing of this page (9/6/10). I found many things wrong with it, from spelling of words, incorrect grammar, to the assumption that the Papal High Mass is a thing of the past. This is a incorrect perspective. The situation is much like that of the Tridentine Mass, having fallen out of use for many years, and now is making a comeback. Also, no part of the Papal Mass has ever been taken off the books. True, it hasn't been celebrated in its full capacity in quite some time, but this is no reason at all to word things as if it no longer happens. For example, regard what Benedict XVI has been doing. He has been celebrating the Papal Mass with a few exceptions in much the way Pius the XII celebrated it. Vatican II did nothing whatsoever to change the Papal High Mass, just as it didn't do anything regarding the use of the Papal Tiara. Please consult cannon law before assuming things again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.108.232.74 (talk) 03:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Suppositions about what may happen in the future are an invalid ground for presenting them as present reality. The Papal Mass as described in the article is not a present reality. It is now decades since a Pope has celebrated Mass with the ceremonial indicated in the article. As for the argument that that ceremonial was never formally abolished, the situation is the same as that of the papal tiara, which the Popes wore (in the past - past tense) but do not wear (now - present tense). Esoglou (talk) 06:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I take it that you are new to Wikipedia. Perhaps you have not yet learned that material in Wikipedia must have the support of reliable external sources. Please read WP:OR. Reliable sources do state that the ceremonies described in this article were observed in the first half of the last century. There is no reliable source that states that those ceremonies are still observed. Unless you cite a reliable source that states it, you cannot edit the Wikipedia article to say, for instance, that "The pope's solemn entry into St. Peter's Basilica is accompanied by a fanfare of silver trumpets". You yourself have admitted that the sedia gestatoria and the tiara are not now in use, but you have edited the article to make it say on the contrary that the papal tiara is placed on the Pope's head and that the Pope is carried into the basilica on the sedia gestatoria. Insistence on inserting such unsourced statements without even discussing the question here on the discussion page would be a form of vandalism, in which you surely do not wish to indulge. Happy editing. Esoglou (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Esoglou: I don't mean to cause I problem, however, I must insist that some of the points I have made are valid. You are correct, it was my mistake to say that the pope IS carried in on the sedia gestatoria. But back to your assumption that the mass no longer exists. This is false. If you want, I could find the provision in the Code of Cannon Law that specifically talks about its existence. I agree with you, the mass, exactly as described, hasn't been celebrated for half a century. But it would be inappropriate to then assume that it simply no longer exists and write about in the past tense. The sweeping reforms of the 60's did END some traditions (such as a Cardinal's right to wear a Galero); in that case, one would write: 'Cardinals once wore a Galero' because the CCL was modified to longer give them that right; thus making the Galero for Cardinals a thing of the past. Another example would be the winter cappa magna with ermine. This was specificity forbade after the reforms of the 60's, though some Cardinals are now, technically in violation of CL, starting to wear it again, such as H.E. Cardinal Rode.

So, in talking about the tiara. I would say that it is a element of the papal regalia. Pope's wear it. Sure, they haven't recently, but they still wear it. You are right, it is not proper to speculate about what may happen and present it as a reality. But this isn't what I am trying to do. I admit that the currents Popes haven't worn the tiara, but Popes still (may) wear it. Until is officially said that they may not, you may not assume otherwise. The Church is 2000 years old. Isn't a little fool-hardy to assume that something that hasn't been used for the past thirty years (tiara) or sixty years (Papal High Mass) simply is a thing of the past? Past is a VERY relative term, and in the eye's of the Church, 60 years is absolutely nothing.

A example of this might be this: We explore the moon. Does NASA currently have any 'real' plans to send any more probes to the moon? No, but we would never say that it was a thing of the past. It is just like that in the case of the Church.

I am new to editing wikipeida. If you insist I can try to find sources. Aside from CCL (which obviously won't talk about current events) what do you want? I mean, what could I provide? News articles? I, and I'm sure you consider them a terrible source of information, particularly about the Church. Think of the abuse scandal!

In watching masses, and in having visited Rome once, I can tell you that many of the traditions are being brought back by the current Pope. I'm sure that anecdotal accounts aren't worth much, but that's where I come from here.

My point is simply this: the Papal Mass may still be celebrated at anytime (virtually speaking of course), and has been within the past 60 years. 60 years is nothing in the eyes of the Church. Why assume that it is a thing of the past? Wouldn't it be better to say something like, it has fallen out of use, and that Pope Benedict is bring back parts of it slowly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.108.232.74 (talk) 23:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

In the papal Mass a cardinal-bishop acts as assistant priest; this honor falls on the most solemn occasions to the Cardinal-bishop of Ostia, the Dean of the College of Cardinals. Cardinal-deacons are assistant deacons and deacon of the Mass, an auditor of the Sacra Rota serves as subdeacon. There is also a Greek-Catholic deacon and subdeacon, vested according to the Byzantine Rite. The other offices are filled by the assistants to the pontifical throne, the members of the prelatical colleges, etc

The Papal Mass is not a thing of the past. Papal Masses are celebrated regularly. But not with the ceremonies of a century ago. At some few of them, there is a Greek-Catholic deacon. There is never any subdeacon, Latin or Greek, nor anybody "serving as subdeacon". You won't find the word "subdeacon" anywhere in the Code of Canon Law, which on the contrary states: "Per receptum diaconatum aliquis fit clericus" (canon 266 §1 - in English: "By the reception of the diaconate a person becomes a cleric"). You can say "there was" or "there used to be" a subdeacon at Papal Masses, you can say "there may be again", perhaps even say "there will be", but you can't say "there is" a subdeacon at Papal Masses. The same holds for the papal tiara, the silver trumpets, and all the other now disused objects and ceremonies.

I trust we can reach agreement on this matter. That is, largely, what the Wikipedia discussion pages are for. And I hope that, using them whenever necessary, you will make valuable contributions to this encyclopedia. Esoglou (talk) 07:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Pontifical High Mass which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:45, 3 July 2019 (UTC)