Talk:Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

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WikiProject United States / September 11, 2001 (Rated Start-class, Low-importance)
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'False' claims[edit]

Throughout the article the words 'false claims' keep appearing repeatedly. Also the statement "the organization claims X but it has been proven Y" appears every few lines as if this article was intended to inform readers that this particular organization and their claims are irrelevant. Furthermore, these said proofs are from media opinion pieces which in turn found their assertion on one or two people who are opposed to the organization in question. Such opinion wars are common with any organization that takes an unpopular stand and the article must ideally reflect this fact along with all the quoted 'proofs'.

1. The points and counterpoints need not be presented here as this is an article about the organization and not the veracity of their claims.
2. The 'false-ness' of their claims have not been indisputably proven by any major organization other than the ones that are in some way related to the US government; which the organization is opposed to.
3. Many sections use turns of phrase and wording intended to ridicule this particular organizations claim. This particular content along with proofs maybe added as a separate section (if needed)
4. The "near free-fall collapse was disproved by a member of the organization" statement appears three times in the article which appears to be un-necessary. A single mention would be sufficient for the purposes of the article.

In interest of neutrality, this article needs a rewrite where 'false' claims are turned over to 'claims' or 'disputed claims' at best. I made some edits in the lead section but all the sections seem to have been thoroughly doctored via a concentrated effort. It might be best if this article is shortened down to a level where it speaks only about the organization and the "claimed-countered" argument is left for another article. Scalebelow (talk) 06:23, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Painting in France[edit]

What does this story have to do with a AE911?. It's like saying an ostrich was seen burying her head in the sand so we should not look past the official explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.232.222 (talk) 16:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposed FAQ[edit]

I've started a discussion for a FAQ for 9-11 Conspiracy web pages.

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 11:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Correction Edit, and New Information Added[edit]

I have renamed the introductory mention of "explosive demolition" to "controlled demolition", and changed the reference link from "World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories" to "Building_implosion", because it is neither accurate, proper, nor correct to generally characterize the controlled, explosive demolition of buildings as a "conspiracy theory", when in reality an entire legitimate industry exists to perform such services for the construction and development communities. Directly linking readers who are curious as to the meaning of "explosive demolition" or "controlled demolition" to an article about "conspiracy theories" instead of "Building_implosion" is not only innacurate, but absolutely dishonest, and clearly crosses the line into the realm of POV.

I have also moved all criticism of AE9/11Truth into its own section in order to consolidate it, and make the article flow more smoothly, as the repetition of very similar criticisms, sprinkled throughout the otherwise neutral descriptions of the activities and policies of this organization made the article read more like a POV hit piece than an objective encyclopedic analysis.

I have added a paragraph mentioning the launching of a "Third Light Beam" into the New York City night skyline in 2010, and an additional paragraph on the release of another 2 hour documentary by the group in 2011.

I have also made a few minor edits in order to improve clarity and/or general readability.

Sorry - Forgot to sign. Am doing it now 72.215.148.50 (talk)

Try a sequence of smaller edits, if you want to add this content and we'll go the WP:BRD route. TippyGoomba (talk) 22:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)


Suggested Edit[edit]

The sentence at the end of the second paragraph is misleading according to the references given. The statement "the scientific and engineering community has generally rejected the position taken by the group[6]" does not appear in the source. Rather, the source states that the general scientific community has accepted another explanation. No judgement whatsoever was made on the "position taken by the group". I recommend rewording this phrase to state:

the scientific and engineering community has not generally accepted the position taken by the group[6]

Following this, when the article states: "several NIST-independent analyses published in peer-reviewed scientific journals provide evidence arguing against the 'blast hypothesis'.[7][8][9]" it is not well referenced. It needs to either be changed, or better references should be found. Source number 7 is a weekly newspaper, not a peer-reviewed journal and it also does not describe any peer-reviewed articles independently agreeing with NIST, so is not a source for this statement. Source number 8 seems independent upon a short inspection. Source number 9 seemed legit to me at first, until I used Google and found that head author Therese P. McAllister works at NIST "From 2002-2008, she was the Co-Leader for the Structural Fire Response and Collapse of WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 of the NIST World Trade Center Investigation." Second author Fahim Sadek works there as well! "Dr. Sadek led the project 'Baseline Structural Performance and Aircraft Impact Damage Analysis' as part of the NIST investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings." And certainly third author John Gross is not independent! "Dr. Gross was awarded the Department of Commerce Gold Medal in 2005 and Special Act Award in 2008 for his contributions to the World Trade Center failure investigation." So we are left with only one valid source, yet the sentence says "several". Because I am not aware of any other papers, I suggest changing this phrase to: "a NIST-independent analysis published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal provides evidence arguing against the 'blast hypothesis'.[8]"

Therefore the entire change would be:

Despite their petition to Congress bearing the signature of over 2000 architectural and engineering professionals, the scientific and engineering community has not generally accepted the position taken by the group,[6] and a NIST-independent analysis published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal provides evidence arguing against the "blast hypothesis".[8]

Smitty121981 (talk) 21:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I think these are well-intentioned changes but ultimately inappropriate. The weekly magazine is a secondary source and is necessary to establish that the material should be included in the first place. I see no particular indication that it is unreliable. I'm not sure why you reject the paper by McAllister et al on the grounds that she works at NIST - who else is going to write up NIST's findings? The paper was published in what seems to be a peer-reviewed journal, so I see no reason to exclude it. I've reverted your edits per WP:BRD, step 2. I kept the "not generally accepted" wording in place, as that seems like a reasonable change. The "several NIST-independent" wording probably comes from the MetroActive source:
"NIST, supported by a number of independent building and explosives professionals who are critical of AE911, also stands behind its theory that the impact of the upper floors crushed the lower ones."
The sentence in the lede seems like a reasonable summary of this statement in the article. I think the next step is to determine whether or not MetroActive is a reliable source. I'm guessing it is, based on its Wikipedia article, but I could be wrong. 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 17:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I accept MetroActive as a reliable source, however I do not accept that it supports the statement in the article. The MetroActive quote you gave just talks about professionals who are critical of AE911 - it says nothing at all about them publishing these critiques in peer-reviewed scientific journals, as the wiki article currently claims. This is quite a substantial difference! As for the McAllister paper, again, yes this is a reliable source by wikipedia standards, and again, it does not support the current sentence in the wiki article. I see absolutely no way that you can rationally argue that this paper was a "NIST-independent analysis" when the first 3 authors not only worked at NIST at the time of writing, but all three actually had key leadership roles in the NIST WTC investigation itself!
Therefore we are left with only three options: The easy route proposed by myself earlier, where we change the sentence to be singular rather than plural. The hard route, to totally rewrite the sentence to reflect the current sources. And the long route, to scour the internet for another source(s) that actually verifies the statement. Are you up to doing either of the latter? If not, I'd like to make my change. Thanks! Smitty121981 (talk) 22:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
ArtifexMayhem's edits may have made this moot, but to clarify, we don't need to verify MetroActive's sources, MetroActive is supposed to verify the facts for us. The two sources published by NIST are the primary sources (the reports themselves), and the source for the statement is MetroActive, which, if reliable, is presumptively accurate unless in conflict with another reliable source. I get the impression that NIST is summarizing the work of independent contractors who independently verified their results in the papers that you removed, but I could be wrong.0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 14:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I've removed all but the first sentence per WP:SYNTH. The text in question made it seem like there is some debate in the engineering community when there is none. The NIST reports are the mainstream account of what happened. AE911's views are WP:FRINGE. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:31, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Can you clarify why this is WP:SYNTH? It seemed like an accurate summary of the sole secondary source placed in the appropriate context here. If anything the current wording is more in line with the fringe position. The closest thing I see to a fringe position in the text you removed was "Despite their petition to Congress bearing the signature of over 2000 architectural and engineering professionals, the scientific and engineering community has not generally accepted the position taken by the group", since that's a non-sequitur and makes it sound as if Congress has some ability to make engineers agree with them. I think that probably needs to be toned down a bit, but overall the removed section was I think important in framing how this group is perceived. 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 14:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Removing the sentence works for me! It was synthesis because it took the "several NIST-independent" from the MetroActive source and combined it with the "independent peer-reviewed paper" by Bazant, and the "peer-reviewed" paper by McAllister, and synthesized the incorrect conclusion that there are "several NIST-independent peer-reviewed papers..."
However I disagree with ArtifexMayhem that there is "no debate" on the subject. One excellent example of engineers debating the topic is the back and forth between James Gourley and Zdenek Bazant, published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics in 2007. Smitty121981 (talk) 14:48, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure that's what he meant, we could easily just change the wording. That said, it says that there were "several NIST-independent analyses published in peer-reviewed scientific journals". That doesn't mean that the publication was independent of NIST, just that the analysis was independent of NIST and that it was published in peer-reviewed journals. I don't see anything in the MetroActive source talking about where the analyses were published, though, so that particular wording is probably inaccurate.
I think it may be a little naive of you to suggest that this is not a fringe topic, though. There is no mainstream debate on this topic, that's for sure. I really do think the lede should reflect that these people are not really taken seriously. I doubt it will be difficult to find reliable sources to this effect, or to craft a new sentence from the MetroActive source. 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 15:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Like I said before, you are more than welcome to find batter sources for the current wording, or to reword it to reflect the current sources. However, until such an occurrence, I support ArtifexMayhem's solution. And sure, that would have been naive to suggest that this doesn't qualify as fringe, had that actually been what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth - I made a clear statement backed by a reference, nothing more. Smitty121981 (talk) 15:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I removed the sentence primarily per WP:SYNTH, but it could have also been removed per the WP:GEVAL (a.k.a., giving "equal validity" can create a false balance) section of WP:NPOV, which states in part, "Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible, but currently unaccepted, theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship", or removed per WP:V generally. There are no reliable sources that show the "blast hypothesis" has any mainstream support. In fact — per the sources provided, and contrary to the unsourced claim that "the scientific and engineering community has not generally accepted the position taken by the group" — the universally accepted explanation of collapse (among those qualified to comment on the matter) is the one given by the NIST. Similarly the statement that "NIST-independent analyses published in peer-reviewed scientific journals provide evidence arguing against the "blast hypothesis" infers that (1) the NIST is not "independent" and therefore cannot be trusted (no non-primary sources support this claim), and (2) that there is evidence for the "blast hypothesis" (also not supported by non-primary sources). — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 09:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Hm... Looking at the MetroActive source a bit more closely, I found this quote:

Newman acknowledges that NIST's response that it sees "no need" to test dust for any form of thermite won't satisfy critics, and adds: "We don't try to debate or argue with these folks because they have their opinions and what they believe is evidence, but to us it is counterproductive to engage in debate.

"We'd rather let the body of evidence we presented stand on its own merits. We feel this is a very good piece of work—in many ways pushing investigations way beyond what's gone before. Our work is to help strengthen buildings, and proof of the validity of our research is that most all our recommendations for changing building codes have been accepted by the international organization that models building codes. That wouldn't have happened if they doubted our findings."

So I'm going to have to agree with your assessment here. That said, I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that evidence provided by non-NIST sources is a valid consideration, since this organization is apparently devoted to critiquing NIST's report. Saying that NIST-independent contractors agreed with NIST is not saying that NIST is not is somehow biased. It's also bizarre to think that because there's evidence against the blast hypothesis that a statement to that effect implies that there is evidence for it.
Honestly, I'm mainly concerned that the way it is now, the article doesn't reflect the fact that no one agrees with these guys. Maybe we could salvage something from the above quoted statement, or poke around looking for a source to determine if there's been any coverage of any explicit response. It seems like at least this one NIST guy has explicitly said that they haven't responded to this petition or whatever because the AE9/11 folks aren't providing any actual evidence to justify further investigation. There's almost certainly a reliable source out there to at least support inclusing of a statement similar to the "Their position has not generally been accepted by [engineers/the engineering community/etc]." 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 12:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I share your concerns that this article does not reflect the fact that the conspiracy theories supported by this group are just, well, conspiracy theories. The article is currently just a soapbox of the views of Richard Gage, and is rife with his beliefs presented has if they had any merit outside of the "truth movement" e.g., "free fall". It's not that the groups positions have not been generally accepted, it's that they have been universally rejected by the community of professionals that are qualified to comment. Cutting out all of the "fan cruft" cited to primary sources might be a good place to start. It's almost alway better to cut from an article such as this than it is to add "debunking." — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I also agree that the article is now lacking an opposing viewpoint, and I will gladly accept any properly referenced NPOV statements. However, ArtifexMayhem, your comments here in the talk section are "rife" with personal bias not backed by any sources and I will be watching this article closely. I will remind you now of what it says on the WP:FRINGE page to which you linked me: "a lack of consideration or acceptance does not necessarily imply rejection, either; ideas should not be portrayed as rejected or labeled with pejoratives such as pseudoscience unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources." Smitty121981 (talk) 15:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi 0x0077BE, you said "There's almost certainly a reliable source out there to at least support inclusing of a statement similar to the 'Their position has not generally been accepted by [engineers/the engineering community/etc].'" and I agree that this should be included. In fact, this statement is still in the article, just farther down (third paragraph of 'advocacy'), and the excellent reference given for the statement is currently #43 (Bazant). I will support you adding a statement such as this to the opening of the article, as long as NPOV is maintained. Smitty121981 (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2014 (UTC)