Talk:Arno Rafael Minkkinen

"an historic conceptual photographer"

In this edit, the article changed to start with the assertion that Minkkinen was "an historical conceptual photographer". I don't fully understand what that means, but it was sourced to Rosenblum's monster history of photography.

The index of that work has one page reference for Minkkinen: 565. This page has a single sentence about Minkkinen, quoted in its entirety elsewhere in the article. On that page, Rosenblum doesn't write anything that I can interpret as meaning "historic conceptual photographer". I'm therefore removing the assertion. -- Hoary (talk) 08:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The assertion IS not WAS. Minkkinen is an historic photographer (one who is still living and working) and he is a Conceptual Photographer (a media specific subset form of art known as Conceptual Art). The Rosenblum text is the industry standard of academia. If your name is in there, it is so...but for the sake of argument he is referred to as an historic photographer in Nude Photography: The Art and the Craft by Pascal Baetens. DK Publishing (October 15, 2007) ISBN-10: 0756631769 and is described as a "legend" at http://www.bostonphotographyfocus.org/tag/arno-minkkinen/ I'm sure i can find many more references as such at the library. Vivisect30 (talk) 18:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

(Please add a comment below what you are commenting on. Thank you.)

If book X says A, and book Y says B, then in principle the article can attribute A to X and B to Y -- but, surely, not A and B to book Z).

However, "legendary" strikes me as a gushy word better limited to pop music fan publications and the like (unless of course it means "pertaining to legend").

(Small point: in my lect of English [indeed, I'd thought in all lects of English], the phenomenon of "backshift" licenses the past tense. Thus if Vivisect30 says "The Rosenblum text is the industry standard", it's perfectly normal for Hoary then to say "Vivisect30 said that the Rosenblum text was the industry standard", without any implication that Vivisect30 was implying that the status of the text had since changed.) --

In regard to that last comment, if you don't have anything relevant to the conversation beyond grammar, syntax, etc...please refrain. The term "legendary" pertaining to a more pop music fan publication is irrelevant as well, most artists since Andy Warhol and the Pop Art movement have tried for exactly that kind of "Rock Star" status. Jackson Pollock and many others would be called "legendary" Note that I have not changed it back to the original statement. however, given the Rosenblum reference, the Baetens reference (ignoring the legendary status) and take the reference in chapter 118 The history of photography in Upton, London and Stone's book Photography 9th ed. ISBN 0-13-175201-4 you still end up with the fact you have three verifiable, independent books, that classify Minkkinen as a part of the history of photography. Vivisect30 (talk) 16:56, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, well, sorry about the grammar note; but it was in direct response to your own stern The assertion IS not WAS. ¶ most artists since Andy Warhol and the Pop Art movement have tried for exactly that kind of "Rock Star" status: I've a horrible feeling that you're right; however, I wouldn't want to besmirch Minkkinen (who produces genuinely interesting work) by association with the dreary Warhol and Warhol wannabes. ¶ Minkkinen is part of the history of photography, and we have evidence for this. (Thank you for amplifying it.) However it seems to me that although "historic" does indeed have the literal meaning of "occupies a place in the relevant history", it's rarely used in this way. Consider Cartier-Bresson: it's almost unthinkable that any history of photography not written by a madman wouldn't accord him an important status; yet to me it sounds strange to say that he is or was a "historic photographer". This or that achievement of his was historic, yes; him historic, I dunno. But maybe my own English is odd here. -- Hoary (talk) 01:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing Minkkinen's achievements to Minkkinen

The article says:

Minkkinen's work is included in over 55 major museum/institutional collections including the [[Helsinki Museum of Photography]], and the [[Museum of Fine Arts, Boston]].<ref>''Saga: The Journey of Arno Rafael Minkkinen, Thirty-five Years of Photographs.'' San Francisco: Chronicle Books, 2005 ISBN 0-8118-5146-X. p.166</ref>

I haven't seen Saga. Of course Chronicle is a reputable publisher, but elsewhere in the article the book is attributed to Minkkinen himself (as if normal, as Minkkinen is a living photographer). This would imply that its content is written by Minkkinen himself. And if this is so, then the sentence above means no more than In his book Saga, Minkkinen states that his work is included in over 55 major museum/institutional collections [...]. Now, Minkkinen is not only a respected photographer but also a tenured professor at a reputable university. All the same, a claim about his achievements should be sourced to an authority other than himself. -- Hoary (talk) 22:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Notable photographs

The article has a list of notable photographs. We read that they're all included in one of Minkkinen's books. However, no evidence is given for their notability. Let's have some. -- Hoary (talk) 22:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Though ironically not on the list of notable images... his self-portrait, santa fe, 2000 is the cover of the book The Dead Father by Donald Barthelme and Donald Antrim and His self-portrait, prague, 1989 was reproduced in a Peter Gabriel cd. (I've seen it but not sure which album it is anymore) Vivisect30 (talk) 17:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

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