Talk:Bağlama

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WikiProject Turkey (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
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WikiProject Musical Instruments (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Musical Instruments, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of musical instruments on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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Comment[edit]

There is nothing in History of Greece about why one might want to hide a musical instrument. Can someone add some information so that this article isn't such a tease? - Molinari 07:55 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous cross-reference. The history of baglamas belongs here. Not on History of Greece or History of music. Here. --Menchi 08:00 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Do you know anything of the instrument's history? - Molinari 08:03 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
No, I just passed by randomly and saw your comment. After checking out that article as is, it shocked me with its very illogical x-ref, so offered my support. Never heard of it. --Menchi 08:39 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)


Sorry about the goofiness with naming, I'm only familiar with the Turkish bağlama, and Wikipedia is weird about diacritics in titles.

When you order a baglama from a Greek luthier, they ask whether you want the bowl carved or made from staves, it can be either. I did a bit of a re-write of the Greek baglama section, and added a better picture for the Greek baglama. I hope the author of the previous picture is not too offended! The instrument shown is mine, and was made by Karolos Tsakirian. The Real Walrus 08:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, history baglama is basicly based on Central Asian countries, there are many similar instruments like in Kyrgyzyztan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan etc. Kopuz, dutar, dumbra, tanbur and tar (etc.) are the such insturments which are so similar to baglama. Probably Turks has taken that instrument from chinese people or maybe turkic people invented it earlier. here on the following, there is a site about a uzbek musician: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/awards2005/profile_sevaranazarkhan.shtml - Cem

Since they are such different instruments, maybe there should be separate pages for the Greek baglama and the other kinds? Just a thought, and it needs a more experienced editor than I am... The Real Walrus 10:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

They are not such different instruments at all, just Greeks like to disassociate anything remotely connected with a Turkish heritage, such as the Zeybek dance, too. The derivative is the same. They are variations of the same instrument that have developed in different cultures. But as most the editors, and Wikipedia for that matter, are biased towards anything Greek and dance to nationalist hellene tunes, anything is possible. 82.145.231.214 20:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

What a pointless talk, I don't understand the Greeks, they already have a wealthy culture but still they are trying to steal from other countries... I'm sorry but adding a letter, particularly "-s", at the end of every Turkish name doesn't work :D (sinan4360)

This discussion seems less about maintaining the article, and more about Turkish-Greek relations. Please remain mindful of WP:NOTFORUM. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Turkish Baglama Strings[edit]

I was given a Turkish Baglama Saz that has 7 strings. The courses are (from left to right) 2, 2, and 3 strings. I don't think it has the right type of strings. What is the right order and type of strings to make this beautiful instrument sing? Perhaps a place where to buy them? Edgardpedia 23:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


Comments by 130.37.210.210 (see [1])[edit]

After my opinion the section about the baglama should we rewritten and based on scientific research and not political/ideological ideas.

Some points: 1. There is no relationship between the kopuz and saz/baglama. See article of Tamila Djani-Zade: Die organologische und ikonographische Gestalt der türkischen Lauten. Über das historische Zupfinstrument qâpâz-i ôz. Also see Walter Feldman: Music of the Ottoman Court and sections about the baglama, saz and tanbur in the New Grove Dictionary. It is generally accepted that the baglama belonges to the tanbur family. 2. Jean-Benjamin de Laborde never travelled to Turkey. In his Essai sur la music ancienne et modern from 1780 he describes the baglama as a small type of lute. In Anatolia the traditional baglama also belonged to the smaller saz instruments. His sources for the baglama are still unknown. 3. The genesis of the baglama is more complex as is suggested by the item about this instrument in Wikipedia. 4. The rise of the modern baglama and baglama family is a recent development. 5. The foundation of the Republic in 1923 was of great influence on the folk music of Anatolia and its lute culture. 130.37.210.210

Infobox[edit]

Discussion of the infobox that just showed up is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Instruments. __Just plain Bill (talk) 23:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Aegean folk music agir zeybek.ogg[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg

Image:Aegean folk music agir zeybek.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Measurements[edit]

Hi! I was just doing a bit of editing to your article, and I was wondering what the units of measurement were (English or metric). Thanks. Ronaldomundo (talk) 15:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I cannot compare my measurements with this table to determine what specific model is in my hand, the table is useless unless you specify the unit. --Rejetto (talk) 13:11, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Merging with saz?[edit]

I am against this merge. It is true that "saz" and "baglama" are sometimes used interchangeably in Turkey, but it is also understood that "saz" refers to a larger family of instruments, while baglama is the instrument shown in the picture. The confusion here may be due to the use of the same picture in both articles. It might be a good idea to replace the picture in "saz" with one that is more representative of the "saz" family (although I think the current one is fine unless one finds a picture with more than one instrument in it), while also mentioning the varied use of the word in the different countries/languages mentioned in the article. I think the "saz" article should be longer with references to individual instruments often classified under it (sorry I have no time to do this). Any opinions will be valued. Dburak (talk) 16:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Saz (in Persian ساز) means Musical instrument in Persian language. But I heard Azeri iranians who use Bağlama and just call it Saz. I think Saz as a musical instrument can be Baglama, dotar or Tanbur. In persian language all these instruments are under Tanbur familly! but in Turkish language it is not like this. I found a good article in a Turkish website [2]. Tanbur is thousand year old I thought maybe we should merge Saz with Tanbur article. Mmehdi.g (talk) 16:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
please review Gopuz article too. Mmehdi.g (talk) 19:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I see. In fact, I know some instances which could be understood as the use of "saz" in Turkish as simply meaning "instrument". It is of course logical that a given people will call their main folk instrument "the instrument", and in these cases, "saz" [I am not sure if a similar logic is possible for the Iranian use of Tanbur]. This suggests to me that the only way to make sense of the "saz" article is to mention that it means "instrument", make a reference to the originating language, mention that the word is used synonymously for a different number of instruments in a variety of languages, and include links to the pages of those instruments. That would make it seem like a dictionary article, but it sounds OK to me. It would also make it easier for people looking for a given instrument, baglama or tanbur, by their common naming as "saz". I would be against merging "saz" with "tanbur" for the same reason I am against the current one. I don't understand the reference to the age of Tanbur, as the issue seems irrelevant. Dburak (talk) 14:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This is a Persian word: sâz "apparatus; (musical) instrument," from sâzidan, sâxtan "to build, make, fashion; to adapt, adjust, be fit" (from Middle Persian. sâxtan, sâz-, Manichean Parthian s'c'dn "to prepare, to form;" Av. sak- "to understand, to mark," sâcaya- (causative) "to teach")[3]. I dont know enough about other languages maybe people think this is a special musical instrument like Baglama. --Mmehdi.g (talk) 14:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
All right then. Can I take it that you agree with me on the "saz" article? May be we should make a reference to the "saz" article and edit it accordingly?Dburak (talk) 16:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
In persian language it is not a group of instrument. for example saxophone, guitar, piano, .. all of them are Saz, but in persian. I dont know how should this word be in an english encyclopedia because all these meaning are in Persian. If you speak Turkish or Azeri or a central asian language maybe you can help to clarify if it means a special group of instrument in these regions. I don't know if it means like this. plus I'm not goot enough in write an english article. Mmehdi.g (talk) 13:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be absurd to merge the Greek baglama article with the Turkish saz article, as they are compltely different instruments. One might as well merge an article about the trombone with one about bicycles, as they both have metal tubes. The Real Walrus (talk) 17:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, stating that the term is used sometimes interchangeably is wrong. There might be a minority whom may refer to this instrument as a 'saz', however as a Turk and living in Turkey attending social gatherings where the baglama is played like clockwork, I can guarantee that not one person refereed to this instrument as a saz. Now I do not care if this is a Persian world that encompasses a variety of instruments. You cannot apply this same logic throughout. It is known as a baglama (thin necked saz), saz ( more or less a guitar). We do not say "Hey look how he plays that (thin necked) saz. Saz, or bağlama, a Turkish stringed instrument on wikis disambegilation page. No sir! Totally differant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.174.12 (talk) 10:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Top down tuning?[edit]

I dont know who wrote about Baglama tuning, and I am not happy abot it has to be Baglama and not Saz it stans for sazlar=muzik

it sounds to poilitical I am sick of turkish devide Turkish.

My main thing is Baglama is tuned from bottom up who invented the top down.

and for a quastion on a page about strings Baglama isnt a banjo but big banjo strings may fit.

Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.189.1.75 (talk) 19:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Saz is one form of instrument in Turkey. You cannot say that sazlar=muzik. Totally absurd. Music=Muzik , song=sarki , closes thing for saz would be guitar. You might feel obliged to compare one cultures definition to the next, but please try to refrain as doing so misguides readers.--220.244.174.12 (talk) 11:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The whole "top down" or "bottom up" is confusing. Does "bottom up" mean from lowest to highest frequency? Or does it mean from the string that is closest to the ground when you play it to the one that highest from the ground? And Some of the double or triple strings are in octaves. I would like to see a good explanation in musical notes, rather than just letters, which don't tell you anything about which octave they are in. Eijkhout (talk) 15:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

How to translate a language like this ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.65.183.218 (talk) 15:04, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Clarification Needed[edit]

1) What units are the given measurements in? Inches? Centimeters? Millimeters? 2) When tunings are given -- for example: A - D - G -- does that mean the instrument is tuned from lowest pitch to highest pitch in fourths, or it is tuned from lowest pitch to highest pitch in fifths (G-D-A)? Note that /standard convention/ for stringed instrument tunings always places the -lowest- pitch courses first. 3) When courses are multi-strung in octaves, which strings are tuned to the lower octave, and which to the higher? Giving tunings in actualy musical staff notation would solve much of this confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.174.105 (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Bağlama scale[edit]

The section on the Bağlama scale contains several obvious errors:

  1. . The ratios stated don't make mathematical or musical sense - in some cases the numerator is larger than the denominator, in some cases the reverse.
  2. . The ratios are are missing at the upper end of the range - not even a complete octave is given, only up to the 7th fret out of 15
  3. . The ratios for up to the seventh fret imply that "extra" frets (my term i.e. sub-semitone) are between the 7th and 15th frets. This contradicts the cited reference, which clearly shows diagrams of "extra" frets before the 7th
  4. . The cited reference (to just intonation) contains no information to support the assertion that the fret ratios are based on just intonation

The scale section cannot be supported by references, is obviously inconsistent and should be deleted unless it can be completed and justified. I've looked this up in Grove but there is nothing there to support the just intonation theory. I can't find any other references on the open web suggesting this theory either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.151.159 (talk) 22:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Chart[edit]

The information provided in the chart, while interesting, is decidedly non-standard for reference works on stringed instruments. "Wire length" is not normally given, but scale -- the distance from nut to bridge saddle -- is a standard measurement, and is missing from this chart. The number of strings and courses, also standard information, is also missing from the chart.

Also, giving a single frequency is unusual, and not all that useful. Rather, the standard or common tuning should be given for each string, with octave designations.

Instruments resembling today's bağlama have been found in archaeological excavations of Sumerian and Hittite mounds in Anatolia dating before Common Era, and in ancient Greek works[edit]

This is a cheap attempt to try and cover up the origin of this instrument. The prototypical form of this instrument is still played in Turkey, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan. The above quote is apparently from the website of a Turkish musician and this claim cannot be found on the website. It is also in stark contrast to actual origin of the Baglama as explained in the article (it's a fringe claim). A musician's website is also not a reliable source of information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.135.242 (talk) 17:46, 13 August 2015 (UTC)