Talk:2022 Chornobaivka attacks

Merging Kherson airport airstrike to here

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merging Kherson airport airstrike into 2022 Chornobaivka attacks, which has already been done in this article without objections for some time, making the other a fork. EkoGraf (talk) 16:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

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The article on the Kherson airport airstrike, which was actually not in Kherson proper, is just one of the 12 incidents that have occurred in Chornobayivka since the start of the war. The article is short and its contents can be very easily integrated here. Thus, I am proposing a merge. Super Ψ Dro 21:30, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support, per above. This article provides much broader coverage of the surrounding conflict in relation to the airport airstrike, which doesn't seem notable as a standalone article. Buttons0603 (talk) 22:09, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support, per above. But rename article title since there has not been any actually "Battle of...", but instead a series of missile and air-strikes. Suggestion - "Chornobayivka attacks". EkoGraf (talk) 23:02, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support  Not sure what name is preferable. There was an initial armed occupation of the airport, but unclear if that involved an assault battle. The Kherson Airport is closest to the village but outside of it.[1] Anyway, something that covers all of the separate actions is preferable to the current. —Michael Z. 00:15, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
• Limited airstrikes are not a part of any battle, so these should not be included in the main prose. However, a Prelude section as exist in countless other articles in the sphere would be appropriate and would be something I would support. The ground battle itself is definitely notable, but is clearly separate from the airstrikes. In sum, oppose if the airstrikes are to be classified as part of the battle, support if they are considered a prelude to the battle, which they certainly are. Curbon7 (talk) 05:50, 30 March 2022 (UTC) Striking, the page is a poor translation of the French Wikipedia page, so I misunderstood the prose. Curbon7 (talk) 05:53, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Not sure if I understood what you meant but this page was created before the French one. Super Ψ Dro 13:13, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose on merit why not just expand the Kherson airport airstrike article to include all of the airstrikes. No notable physical ground battle has occurred here yet, and limited airstrikes are not considered a battle, just a strike. This way, the article's title is accurate (Kherson airport airstrikes) and we are able have a better quality article to serve as a base. i.e. a reverse of the proposal: merging this article to that one. Curbon7 (talk) 05:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Disagreed. Russia have attempted to take control of Chornobayivka village on twelve seperate occasions and each time have been ultimately repelled (even if on some occasions they managed to hold it for a few days at a time) - I would argue this constitutes a battle in itself, even if it isn't a particularly intense one. Buttons0603 (talk) 08:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Support alternate proposal as well by Curbon7. The strikes on the airport have been much more notable while any clashes over the village I would say fail notability to warrant an article. Striking. Content from Kherson airport attack has already been merged into this one. EkoGraf (talk) 12:33, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Noting that the title here was always provisional. The engagements at Chornobayivka were not a battle but I titled this page as such to decide the issue posterioly. I opened a thread at the invasion's talk page regarding this [2]. Consensus here should not be decided around whether the article is called a battle or not because this is going to change in the future. By the way, just like I said at the invasion's talk page, I welcome anyone to open a RM here with potential title ideas for this article. I also want to note that Chornobayivka has gotten high popularity and many sources have referred to the town in itself. Relegating this article to "aistrikes that happened on Kherson" (when so many others must have happened too at the proper battle) is something I oppose. Super Ψ Dro 13:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Support but needs clarification whether there is a battle or actually there are raids on Kherson Airport. Sgnpkd (talk) 20:01, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Notable enough on it's own; and the airstrike isn't necessarily part of the battle. Dawsongfg (talk) 19:39, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Dawsongfg, the article is only three paragraphs long (one is background) and, as I've said in this talk page and as evidenced by the RM request below, this "Battle" title is provisional. This article covers precisely the strikes that happened in the Kherson International Airport at Chornobaivka. Would it be sensible to give each of the 15 strikes its own article? There's at least one as notable as the one that currently has a page, as a Russian general was also reported to have been killed on it. Super Ψ Dro 20:18, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Then could you fit all of that here? Dawsongfg (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

If you mean if the article can fit all 15 strikes, yes, that's the current state of the article, and if you mean if the article can fit all the info in that other page here, yes as well, it's not too much. By the way, I want to note that the article that has been proposed for merge hasn't been edited by anyone other than bots or myself (my last edit was for proposing the merge) since 30 March. The attack was on 16 March and we're on 17 April, so it's quite forgotten. Super Ψ Dro 21:24, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

...half of the Wikipedia pages are quite forgotten, as is at least half of the Russian bombardments on military locations and the Millerovo base attack.. Dawsongfg (talk) 21:34, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

The content of the Kherson airport attack article has already been merged into this one for quite some time. EkoGraf (talk) 16:13, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

• I've moved the article. Now it isn't titled as a "battle" anymore. Super Ψ Dro 16:57, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Spelling

Please see Talk:Chornobayivka#Requested move 29 March 2022, which may affect the spelling of this article’s title. —Michael Z. 00:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 1 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - Absent any consensus on a new name in addition to the unresolved merge suggestion above, this title should be discussed outside the RM process first. Once there is general agreement on a proposed title and the merge by knowledgable editors, a new RM would be appropriate. Mike Cline (talk) 12:25, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

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Battle of Chornobaivka → ? – I don't think we can qualify this as a battle. As I have understood it, what has happened at Chornobayivka are Ukrainian raids and attacks into the Russian-controlled aerodrome of the village, not direct clashes between Russians and Ukrainians. A new title is needed but I don't know which could be it. Super Ψ Dro 18:18, 1 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 07:11, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Support Kherson airport airstrikes. (plural) EkoGraf (talk) 11:38, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I again express my opposition to leaving Chornobayivka out of the title, for starters because the airport is not actually in Kherson. Many sources that talked about these strikes gave Chornobayivka as the location, often something like "Chornobayivka, near Kherson", "Chornobayivka, near Kherson airport" or "Chornobayivka, just north of Kherson" [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]. Furthermore, it is Chornobayivka the one that has gotten a lot of fame (you can read about this on this page's Reaction section, although it is short) during the invasion exactly for these repeated successful attacks on the Russian forces, not Kherson itself nor the Kherson International Airport. Super Ψ Dro 18:52, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Super Dromaeosaurus, per WP:COMMONNAME this is mostly being reported as Kherson Airport, so I think that would be more applicable [10]. However, as I agree that the name needs to be changed ASAP, I won't be a roadblock on this for the moment. Curbon7 (talk) 20:32, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

That's only one of the attacks. There are other 13 (yes, they're now 14 in total), and still, Chornobayivka and not Kherson or the airport itself is the one that gained a lot of presence in popular culture for its resistance [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]. There are even "other Chornobayivkas" all over Ukraine [16] [17]. To ignore all of this by effectively presenting these attacks as just something else that happened in Kherson where a whole battle was already fought strips away a lot of notability from them. Super Ψ Dro 20:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the edit conflict by the way, I realized a couple of those links were bad. Curbon7 (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

No problem, sorry about it too. Super Ψ Dro 20:52, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Curbon7, both proposals seem to have stagnated a bit. Do you still hold on your stance here and at the merge proposal? I don't believe that WP:COMMONNAME qualifies here nor that we have a way to precisely know which ("Chornobayivka something" or "Kherson something") is being used the most so far, but I still believe we should title this article with Chornobayivka as it is that town and not Kherson nor the airport the one of which jokes, memes and songs have been made. Your rationale on the merge proposal was based on the fact that these engagements were not a battle but just strikes, which is true. However, since a RM has been proposed and the title might change, I believe this loses strength for opposing the merge proposal. Super Ψ Dro 20:17, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Reconfirming. Support merger of airport airstrike article to this one per Super Dromaeosaurus. Support name change to Kherson airport airstrikes, in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME per Curbon7, since virtually all of the attacks took place at the airport. However, if other editors show expressing an opinion we should stick with Chornobaivka (instead of "Kherson airport") I won't argue further. EkoGraf (talk) 18:51, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

• Chornobaivka airstrikes or Kherson airport airstrikes would work. Some of them were not airstrikes, but artillery attacks. Not sure. My very best wishes (talk) 00:08, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Maybe Chornobaivka attacks? 2022 Chornobaivka attacks? Super Ψ Dro 08:47, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

2022 Chornobaivka attacks or 2022 Kherson airport attacks. Without the "air" as My very best wishes has noted not all were airstrikes (artillery included). Also would be in line with existing 2022 Vinnytsia attacks. Also maybe without the "2022" at beginning, since there have not been any other attacks there in history I think. EkoGraf (talk) 18:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 07:12, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Ukraine has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 07:12, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move justification

Even though the RM above ended in no consensus, nobody defended the "battle" title. In the discussion, although it had low participation, it was agreed that the title could be "Chornobaivka attacks" something or "Kherson airport attacks" something. Thus, as both represent an improvement, I've moved it to the former proposal as that's the one I believe is the most appropriate. Now, this article is consistent with other articles such as 2022 Vinnytsia attacks or 2022 Zhytomyr attacks. However, I am 100% open to further discussion if other editors believe including "Kherson airport" in the title may be better. Super Ψ Dro 16:57, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Those are against multiple targets, this is mainly the airport. 64.82.204.2 (talk) 15:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

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why Dawsongfg (talk) 19:23, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Is this page simply repeating propaganda claims of a Ukrainian official?

This page relies extensively on the assertions of one Ukrainian official, not exactly known for his neutrality, and prone to exaggeration, Oleksiy Arestovych. He can claim whatever he wants in his daily briefings, and the Ukrainian media will publish it. Particularly if it has viral potential, like this meme about Chornobaivka (as this Wiki article itself notes). The task of this article should be to piece together the truth of the attacks against the airbase, as opposed to simply repeating the propaganda claims of one side in the conflict.

Toadchavay (talk) 00:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is a problem. But it is also a problem that independent reporting is lacking, reporters stay away from the front. --Baxbox (talk) 06:33, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Don't forget the people who use Russian propaganda on the English Wikipedia as well....... Dawsongfg (talk) 22:30, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why should we doubt Arestovych's words here. Most of the times, what's cited from him is that another attack happened at Chornobaivka, that some Russians died and some things were destroyed, and his ironic comments. Imprecise general information. Not sure why he would make up attacks. If he had done so, someone would have called him out for that. Maybe that's yet to come. If so, we can't do anything in Wikipedia without the proof to doubt any of his claims. By the way, as Baxbox noted, Arestovych is in many times the only possible source for a given attack here. Although recently the Operational Command South has been giving the news on Chornobaivka. I guess Arestovych ran out of sarcasm. Super Ψ Dro 21:05, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

then again there's news of random things (such as one time of flares being lit up but nothing came out of it) Dawsongfg (talk) 01:42, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Over?

The Chornobaivka attacks are over, as Ukrainian forces recaptured the airport today, on November 10th. 96.242.227.52 (talk) 21:41, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes. They're over. Slava Ukraini! Super Ψ Dro 14:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

"able to simply drive their people to slaughter"

Is Zelensky saying that the Russian command are able to make the Russian army commit acts of slaughter and war crimes, or is he saying that Russians soldiers are being sent to die, or both? The translation in the article is kind of unclear, and I haven’t been able to figure it out on my own via online translation tools and Wiktionary. HappyWith (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

It's the second. I hadn't thought about the sentence possibly being ambiguous. I think the context, criticizing the Russian high ranks and calling them incompetent, indicates that he is referring to a lack of importance of them towards their subordinates. Also, this is after all an article about a continued massacre of Russians at the same airfield throughout months. That further indicates the second interpretation. Here is a Ukrainian English-language source from the government [18]. It uses a pretty similar wording (it's not citogenesis/circular sourcing).

I think someone might only get the first meaning if they single out that sentence and read it. An user reading the article from top to bottom will probably understand the second interpretation. I am open to rewriting suggestions but the possibilities seem limited. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

"able to simply drive their people to be slaughtered", maybe? HappyWith (talk) 14:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

How do you see this [19]? Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:26, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

That works well too, yeah. We could also put "their" in brackets to show it's an editing choice. HappyWith (talk) 14:28, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I did think of doing that. Done. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:36, 31 August 2023 (UTC)