Talk:Bella and the Bulldogs

Controversy

Archived at Talk:Bella and the Bulldogs/Controversy

Newbie QB is a single episode

The first episode that starts the series "Newbie QB" is a 44 minute special episode. It is not parted on presentation, it has one set of credits and it is sold as a single 44 minute episode

• Amazon
• iTunes

Listing it a 2 parter is adding false info to the article and doesn't match what actually was created, broadcast and is currently being sold. What goes into making an episode, in this case that it used two production slots, is interesting info for the article but we should still emphasis the finished product. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:19, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. The fact that it used two production slots is the studio's business. It was created as a 1 hour episode and aired as one. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. As I mentioned elsewhere, there are times when two episodes that are actually two separate episodes are aired as one episode for one reason or another—the finale of Digimon Tamers, for example, aired as a one-hour special when it first premiered, but later reruns showed it as two separate episodes—but they still have two sets of credits. In cases like Henry Danger, Bella and the Bulldogs, 100 Things to Do Before High School, etc., the first episodes are one episode with one set of credits, not two episodes put together. Amaury (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Episode Split

Now that this show's second season is also coming up, I feel that an episode split is appropriate now, but I will of course wait to see if there are any objections. Amaury (talk) 03:29, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I think a split is warranted as there is now a season 2 table in the episode section. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

That is the General Rule regarding this subject. Once a show goes into its second season and if there's any indication that it will go on for longer, it should be split. But first wait and see how the second season progresses first. If it continues to run strong, split it. Rhatsa26X (talk) 02:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Background removal

@Geraldo Perez: in special:diff/708317812 I don't understand why mentioning the previous Nickelodeon projects the creators worked on prior to this is 'too much info' considering this is also a Nickelodeon project. I could possibly see exporting that their article if they had them but since they don't it's the only way people can be made aware of this.

I also disagree that end credits are the only authoritative sources for names. If we have other reliable sources that give it in more detail so we can disambiguate from others, that is useful. Otherwise people might assume that musician Jonathan Butler does writing on the side or something.

Why should we think the January 2015 article from TelevisionWorthWatching is unreliable?

Bianculli, David (17 January 2015). "Bella and the Bulldogs". Archived from the original on 4 March 2016. The creators of this new series, Jonathan C. Butler and Gabriel Garza, both emerged from the internal talent-development engine known as Nickelodeon Writing Program. And the star of this new series, Brec Bassinger, emerges from Nickelodeon as well – from a recurring role on The Haunted Hathaways. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

We already know that a Jonathan Corban Butler worked with Nickelodeon in 2011 on Fanboy & Chum Chum from this statement directly from the show's creator:

Robles, Eric (25 April 2011). "Schoolhouse Lock". Frederator Studios. Archived from the original on 26 April 2012. Jonathan Corban Butler wrote the episode {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

Do you think 2 distinct Jonathan Butlers worked as writers for Nickelodeon shows from 2011-2015? If so then which one do you think worked with Gabriel Garza to write "Haunted Doll" in 2013? Which one wrote "Dust Busters" in 2014? If there had been multiple Jon Butlers writing for Nick then I think they probably would have insisted on a middle initial to distinguish between them. The absence of a disambiguator indicates it's the same writer in 2011/2013/2014/2015 (unaware of any 2012 projects).

For balance, we could add some more info about Garza's work with Nick too. Was planning on adding that later anyway. He wrote 9 eps of Monsters versus Aliens in 13-14 and 7 eps of Penguins of Madagascar in 11-12. This would balance the count between mentioning 2 individual works from each creator and 1 shared work. That the shared work happened to be a series featuring Bulldogs' star as a recurring character is also a notable observation for the background. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 05:50, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

The actual credits displayed in the show itself are authoritative. That is the name he himself chooses to use professionally on this project and that is his official credit. Likely his current name as registered with WGA as well. Any other reference is superseded by what was displayed in the show itself. Any other name also goes against his own wishes as to how he wants to be credited, we should honor his wishes and not try to "correct" what he himself desires. How he wishes to be credited on other shows is irrelevant to how he wants to be credited on this one. If there is an article created for Jonathon Butler (writer) other names used in other projects can be redirected to that article. Of course the name he is most commonly credited as should be the name of his article if created per WP:COMMONNAME. We can solve the problems with other Jonathon Butlers with proper disambiguators in article titles, hatnotes, and disambiguation pages as is common for people with the same name - this happens a lot.

As for information about him in this show. Too much was added and it does not add to the description of what this show is about. It is too much about him and not this show. If you feel you have enough well-referenced non-trivial secondary sources that can support a bio article on Butler, that is where that belongs. This article is not a WP:COATRACK to create a bio article about Butler. Geraldo Perez (talk) 06:19, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Also see Butler's IMDb page and note name used there. It looks like he changed his official credit to "Jonathon Butler" circa 2013. Geraldo Perez (talk) 06:46, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

@Geraldo Perez: due to Brin-Jonathan Butler also being a writer (Boxing Writers Association journalist, film-writer, book-writer) the link you proposed might better serve as a disambiguation also. Given that his middle name is used by Chum Chum creator and his middle initial as seen in the second batch of sources, also used by his university:

"Success: Student Wins Nickelodeon Writing Fellowship". UCLA Extension. 28 April 2010. Archived from the original on 9 July 2015. Jonathan C. Butler, who has taken many courses at the Writers' Program, was chosen as one of three Nickelodeon Writing Fellows for 2009-2010. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

"Nickelodeon Names Participants of 11th Annual Fellowship for Diverse Writers". Viacom. 20 December 2010. Archived from the original on 5 March 2016. Jonathan Butler ('09-'10): Fanboy and Chum Chum
Gabriel Garza ('09-'10): The Penguins of Madagascar {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

Weisman, Jon (20 December 2010). "Nickelodeon names three fellows". Variety (magazine). Archived from the original on 5 March 2016. Two fellows from 2009-10 have been placed on staff on Nickelodeon series: Jonathan Butler ("Fanboy and Chum Chum") and Gabriel Garza ("The Penguins of Madagascar"). {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)</ref>

It serves as a natural disambiguation, bypassing the need for a parenthesis, for which one unique to just him does not appear apparent due to Brin. Not to mention that Jonathan Kenneth Butler is also a songwriter, also making him a writer.

I also think if it's possible to locate this information for Garza that we should do this as well, since a Gabriel Garza page should probably be a disambig for him and Gabriel Garza Hoth. Garza is possibly more deserving of his own page right now since the writing work he did for MvA/Penguins (9/7) is more extensive than what Butler did for Chum/FOP (2/1) in terms of having a past with Nick.

Seeing as how you brought up IMDB, while "C." doesn't specifically appear, "Corban" certainly does appear for Fanboy & Chum Chum, it says next to it the two eps he wrote:

• (segment "Kids in the Hall", as Jonathan Corban Butler)
• (writer - as Jonathan Corban Butler)

So since you introduced IMDB as a source to rely on, it supports the introduction of Corban (or C. to save on characters) for him, and it makes sense to use this to avoid confusion with others sharing the name. Should someone ever change the name into a link, they would think an article was already made about him, even though it's about the musician.

Credits being briefer doesn't indicate a legal name change or anything it just means they're being more concise, perhaps for aesthetics in how lists appear at the end, or to diminish how much of the screen is blocked during start credits. It still doesn't negate the need to disambiguate them from the Jonathan Butler living in the article space. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 06:49, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

What is in the credits is pretty much his legal name. If he wanted to use his full name they would have shown that in the credits - it is his choice on how he is credited. I used IMDb as they usually get writing credits correct. Nobody "deserves" a page name, it is either the primary topic based on number of sources covering topic and somewhat how current a topic. Also page hits if looking at multiple pages vying for primarytopic. Otherwise the root name will be a disambiguation page. Most of Butler's credits are after 2013 when he started to go by "Jonathon Butler". If (writer) is not sufficient (television producer) would also work. Or his full name as he did use it for some credited work. My preference would be current name used with some parenthetical disambiguation. Brin-Jonathan Butler is not ambiguous and would likely go in a "See also" section in a disambig page for Jonathon Butler. Since he is credited both in episodes as a writer and as creator/producer as Jonathon Butler we would need to pipe the link to bypass any disambiguation pages or hatnotes. People linking without checking is a strong argument for the root name to be a disambiguation page so this gets caught fast. Geraldo Perez (talk) 07:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

It looks like you have sufficient sources to meet WP:GNG for an article. You should be able to create a draft article and go through the WP:AFC process if you don't want to register for a user name. Geraldo Perez (talk) 07:36, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

I guess Jonathan Butler (television producer) could work, that seems specific enough to exclude what I know of the other JB's works. I'm not sure if there is enough for an article yet. I remember with actors they need to be the star of 2 works which have articles, so I figure the equiv with writers is they need to be the creators of 2 works with articles. Although both creators have worked on 4 notable works all which have articles, they are only the creators of the most recent one. I don't know if doing episode writing for the other works could collectively qualify as a second notable work or not. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 08:35, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Cast and character names

Why does the character Bella Dawson get a last name, but none of the others do?

Someone added them, which was then reverted by cluebot (probably because some of the names are similar to insults). I reverted cluebot (and submitted a false positive report), but was subsequently reverted myself without explanation. Is there some guideline on this? The episodes themselves do not seem to list the character names. In my opinion, either all or none of the names should include the last name, with inclusion being preferred. Dunditschia (talk) 13:50, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Names in the article are as credited since we want an out-of-universe experience. Amaury (talk) 14:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Dunditschia: If character names are not listed in the actual show's credits (as is the case for main cast in most series), we usually use the names listed in the press release by the network (for this series, see here). If another character's last/full name is revealed later on, it's usually OK to add it to the description with an episode reference using {{cite episode}}, like this:

In "Episode Name", it was revealed that his/her last name is "Smith".

– nyuszika7h (talk) 14:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. Dunditschia (talk) 16:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Also related, there is a large amount of character name corruption (most not good faith) particularly for kid shows where people either make up extended names for characters or presume to know what a formal name for a supposed nickname is. It is very difficult to verify that a name enhancement is correct without a reference that is easier to verify than "it was shown in some episode of the series, but I'm not going to tell you which one". Keeping names to what is credited maintains the out-of-universe perspective we should be striving for in all articles about fiction and gives a way to verify correctness. Also applies to character names mentioned in actor bio articles for credits list. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that happens with Violetta, many names turned out to be mentioned in the show but some are either never mentioned or the actual revealed full name is different. nyuszika7h (talk) 15:39, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

References

Potential series finale

I did a Google search and did find this and this which are from Brec's official and confirmed Twitter. However, I'm not sure if by last episode she's referring to the last episode of the series or last episode as in literally the last episode that aired—as in, "Hey, Tom! Did you like last night's episode? I can't wait for next week's episode!" Then in the other tweet, she mentions the Bella and the Bulldogs finale, but doesn't specify whether the series or season, and from experience, networks have done things like that before, where they will say things like, "Tonight is the [show name] finale! Don't miss it!" but they do indeed only mean the current season as there's another season on the way. Then there's this, however, that does specify and mention season two finale.

Anyway, as I mentioned to GP here, shows are usually renewed for another season midway through their current season, but that is not always the case. If memory serves, Austin & Ally wasn't renewed for a fourth season until after the third season had ended.

So, as it stands, we can add the season two end date, but I vote on keeping the series' end date as present until we have something more definite or a year's gone by with no announcement.

Geraldo Perez, MPFitz1968, Nyuszika7H, IJBall

Amaury (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

She doesn't speak for the network. In no way is anything she says a reliable source of info about anything that is not about herself. The most we can add to the article is a quote about what she says without any interpretation of what she means and we don't change key article info based on anything she says. Otherwise wait for a reliable source we can use. Until we get official word series is over, or a year has passed after airing the last episode with no renewal info we keep the end date as saying "present". Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:05, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

@Geraldo Perez: Got it! Also, while I'm in complete agreement, GP, is the reason we don't include season renewals or similar announcements from confirmed actors' social media sites because it can always change? For example, hypothetically speaking, let's say Brec was very specific that the show was likely canceled. However, a few weeks later, we learn that it has been renewed for a third season.

That then leads to another question: are there some exceptions to what we can use confirmed actors' social media sites as sources for? Like, for example, I know we were able to use Ben's Twitter to source the director and writer credits for Girl Meets World season three's Girl Meets Triangle episode. Amaury (talk) 18:17, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

@Amaury: WP:SOCIALMEDIA describes the policy. One point is "it does not involve claims about third parties". Basically anything actors say about themselves we can use in the actor's article. Things they say about others, including other actors they know can't be used. It is a primary source as well so we can't do any interpretation on what we think they meant. We generally take what the show runner says about his show as authoritative as an expert in the topic. Actors are just employees and don't speak for their employer. I think a direct quote from an actor is OK in an article as additional info but we can't treat the info as an official statement that changes other article content. For cancellation info we should have either a network press release or some reliable secondary source as a reference. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I suspect this one is going to be one of those cases where the network just "quietly" cancels the show without any notice or press coverage. (See also: I Didn't Do It and Make It Pop.) I suggest doing as Geraldo Perez indicates: add a sentence quoting the lead actress' Tweet (i.e. the first one listed above, and source it to the tweet using {{Cite tweet}}), but don't list it as "officially" cancelled unless and until a WP:RS is produced confirming that... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:19, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree. If we are pretty certain the show is over but we can't find a reliable source to officially confirm it, I'd be OK with dropping "last_aired = present" from the infobox, without adding an end date, even if this does not conform to the MOS for TV series. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:33, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

A separable question related, is the last episode the finale ep of season 2 as is being added to the list of episodes table. I don't see any reliable source showing that either and the tweet is still not sufficient to show that. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:26, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

@Geraldo Perez: If you watch or are able to watch Biggest. Game. Ever., you can definitely sense, at the very least, a season finale feeling. Obviously, that's not enough and there are no other sources other than Brec's tweet which, of course, we can't use. Amaury (talk) 17:34, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

We are missing a good reference but it does look like it really is the season final ep. We could add the info and tag it with {{cn}} for now. This is different than tagging the series as being over. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:17, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

@Geraldo Perez:  Done. Amaury (talk) 18:23, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'd add the tweet as a reference and tag it with {{better source needed}}. nyuszika7h (talk) 18:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

That works too. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:26, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2016

needs to say that it ended June 2016 198.52.13.15 (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

 Not done. Nope. Amaury (talk | contribs) 19:19, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

See discussion in section just above this one that goes into a lot of the reasoning as to why there is not a date there yet. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:21, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Cancellation

Why hasn't anyone updated the status of the show to cancelled? Brec has already stated that the show was cancelled. AlrightOkTyler (talk) 10:34, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

See the "Potential series finale" discussion above. Brec does not speak for the series, and even so, her statement was ambiguous as to whether she meant the season or series finale. If there is no official announcement by a year from when the last episode aired—in this case, a year will be June 25, 2017, since the last episode aired on June 25, 2016—then it will automatically apply the end date to the series. Amaury (talk | contribs) 15:12, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2017

Lucyverlac (talk) 21:16, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Change date of show ending, which still says present, to June 25, 2016.

Here is a source:

https://twitter.com/Brecbassinger/status/746939133461831680?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Not done for now: See the three talk page sections above this one. Grayfell (talk) 21:25, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Update: We can probably tell it is cancelled by now.68.224.116.208 (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Per above, if no announcement has been made by one year from the latest episode airing, we can safely stick a fork in it. That's June 25, 2017, which is coming right up. This may seem fussy, but TV is a weird industry, so who know? Any reason to rush it? Grayfell (talk) 20:45, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Oh, also, I briefly searched for new sources, but found nothing specific. Grayfell (talk) 20:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Update 2: Now it's one day away.68.224.116.208 (talk) 22:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC) Update 3: The page is unprotected now. I have removed the protection mark.68.224.116.208 (talk) 15:59, 22 July 2017 (UTC)