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References

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I'm having trouble with citing references in my edits (this is my first created page). Grateful for any assistance in adding these. Metabaronic (talk) 23:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CITE is the definitive resource. 98.248.32.178 (talk) 23:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative Names (Citation)

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Not sure what should be cited here - the possible names of the founder of Birmingham would all need to be separately cited, which would just be a list of unsubstantiated guesses by various people, while citing the evidentiary link between names and place names seems redundant. The name Breme is linked to the Brom- prefix in place names, while Ber- and Bir- prefixes tend to be a contraction of Beor. At a stretch I could quote Margaret Gelling's "Some notes on the place-names of Birmingham and the surrounding district", Transactions & Proceedings, Birmingham Archaeological Society (72): 14-17, ISSN 01404202, 1956, but a) I haven't read it and b) some things are self-evident. Metabaronic (talk) 00:12, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

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A proposed to change to the pronunciation to (/ˈbɜrmə/,[1]) has raised the issue of how this name is pronounced.

The name of Birmingham's founder is rarely used, and is only in common use in three contexts: In Birmingham University, where it is used in relation to a bar there, in relation to the Beorma Quarter, an upcoming development, and in relation to Beorma founding Birmingham in the Digbeth/Highgate area. In all instances the local pronunciation is used, and is always Bey-orma, rather than Bur-ma, which has been offered up in relation to the name Birm, which is covered under alternate names and not under Beorma. There is not, to my understanding, any evidence of an international context, as IPA should not apply to an exclusively local word.Metabaronic (talk) 18:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The IPA is readily used for local pronunciations.
The present link gives "berma" as the pronunciation. It may be wrong. However, the other (reverted) pronunciation is impossible, both in Old and in Modern English.
What exactly is the pronunciation you've heard in those other contexts? "bey-orma" doesn't give enough info for me to transcribe it: which syllable is stressed? I assume the 'a' is a schwa?
(Looks like there's a similar mistranscription at beormingas. Maybe we can get both resolved?) — kwami (talk) 00:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't very clear. IPA of course applies, which is why I transcribed it in the first place. What I meant was that there is unlikely to be any evidence for another way of pronouncing it other than the local way. I was assuming your change was based on the same arguments put forward under Worcester and stressing that the word is not in common enough use to be interpreted differently abroad.

As far as I can tell, the accepted etymology for Birmingham changed in the 1950s, and was uncertain because local dialect offered two conflicting pronunciations (birm- and brom-), based on two conflicting etymologies resulting in over a hundred different ways of spelling Birmingham.

Based on modern pronunciation, which is consistent in all cases, the choices were beɪ.ɔːmə, beɪ.ɔrmə or beɪ.ɔərmə. "b" as in bad, "ey" as in whey, "or" as in oar, and "m" as in man and the "ə" schwa as in about. I based the presentation of this on the entry for beowulf. I'm no specialist in phonetics, so bow to those who are, but in modern usage the ˈbɜrmə pronunciation is never given, even if it may have accurately been the original pronunciation. This begs the question - do we present the pronunciation as spoken, as historically defined by the etymology, or both?

I won't revert edit the name until this is resolved, because this isn't about point scoring - I'd rather we got it right than keep reverting. However I have removed the reference because there is better out there for your argument, and the site you're using seems to be original research. Metabaronic (talk) 06:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that site could simply have explained it as having the vowel of "BIRM-ingham" because they expected people to be confused by the odd spelling, and they were trying to establish a connection. I assume that your sources are superior. The problem here is that I still don't understand which syllable is stressed: is it /'beɪ.ɔrmə/ or /beɪ'ɔrmə/? The next question is whether it's the HORSE vowel or the HOARSE vowel; since that distinction is hardly made any more, that may be difficult to answer. Given that born had a similar diphthong in OE, I'd expect the HORSE vowel, /beɪ.ɔrmə/, but I'm not informed enough to judge. Then there's the question of whether we transcribe an /r/ or not. It would certainly be valid to just leave it with a local pronunciation; on the other hand, there was historically an /r/ and there's little doubt that if it were said in a rhotic accent, it would have one. But I don't feel strongly either way. (Though if we go the local dialect route, we've got that to consider for HORSE/HOARSE as well.)
Since my transcription is most likely more incorrect than the worst of these, I'm deleting it. — kwami (talk) 07:55, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The HORSE/HOARSE distinction is a fine one, and it may be too close to call. In my experience the HOARSE vowel is more common, but that may lend as much to the circles I move in (undergraduates, planners, architects etc) whereas pronunciation by local Brummies is likely to be closer to the HORSE vowel. Regarding the stress on syllables I picked /'beɪ.ɔrmə/ because there is a clear break, but again that seems to be more pronounced when the HOARSE vowel is used Metabaronic (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"I picked /'beɪ.ɔrmə/ because there is a clear break". I don't follow why that would matter. You could have either /'beɪ.ɔrmə/ or /beɪ.'ɔrmə/ with a clear break. I'll put it back now, since I'm the one who was contesting it. I used the HORSE vowel, since that's the last one you used, but change back to HOARSE if you like.
What caught my attention originally was that the ma was stressed, which isn't possible in English. I then "corrected" to the only pronunciation I could find a cite for. The way you describe it, it was simply a matter of deleting the stress mark on the ma.
What about beormingas? — kwami (talk) 18:20, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that was probably a misinterpretation on my part then. I'll talk through beormingas with you on that page.Metabaronic (talk) 05:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Birmingham: the City Center
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