Talk:Boston Beer Company/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Popular Culture

Not sure if this is worth mentioning or not, but Peter Griffin, the fictional main character of the animated series Family Guy, often drinks a beer called "Pawtucket Patriot Ale" with a revolutionary war soldier on the can. It's clearly an obviously a homage to Samuel Adams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.192.5 (talk) 17:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Name

I was bold and moved the page to Samuel Adams (beer), as the company is much better known as Samuel Adams than "Boston Beer Company".--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I reverted this a little over a year and a half later. The article is primarily about the company, not one of their lines of beers. Samuel Adams (beer) now redirects. jheiv ^{talk contribs} 03:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Isn't this a case of WP:COMMONNAME? And I would argue that the article appears to be as much or more about the beer line as the company itself. --Fru1tbat (talk) 04:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so -- articles about companies are, for the most part, titled using name of the company itself, even if it has one product that stands out as flagship (e.g. H. J. Heinz Company, The J.M. Smucker Co.). In all honesty, I haven't read the article in a few months so I may be hazy on the focus -- but as a craft-beer enthusiast (including beers formerly known as craft), I'll work on adding content, rounding out the article about the company. jheiv ^{talk contribs} 05:29, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and reverted it back (the move also caused some mess with the talk page archives). I think this is pretty clearly a case of common name. "Samuel Adams" is the best known name for the company and the brand, not to mention the beer itself (have they ever made a beer without the Sam Adams name?), even by the company itself. The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Beer confirms, "[Jim Koch's] beers are better known by the Samuel Adams name" (p. 143).--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Please use the history

Please, people, use the history when reverting vandalism to make sure that you know what it is you're supposed to be fixing. 24.128.180.171 vandalised [[White Ale]] to [ Noble Piles]; some would-be do-gooder came along and blithely "fixed" it to [ Noble Pils]. Still not a link, still with an unnecessary leading space, still not correct. To top it off, the Boston Beer Company does not yet offer a "Noble Pils" (it won't debut until Winter 2010), and the section in question is about beers that are already available. If you aren't going to bother to verify the original pre-vandalised text, any change you make is no better than the vandalism you're failing to correct. 98.211.124.111 (talk) 19:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Descriptions

Many of the beer descriptions are direct quotations off the bottles. For instance, the description of "Coastal Wheat" is found on the neck of Coastal Wheat bottles, and is a direct quotation of the cited publicity materials. Is this proper? I'm not very clear on citation guidelines, but I feel like direct quotation of a company's promotional material is not exactly what Wikipedia is about. If nothing else, it is not clearly marked as a quotation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.5.137.223 (talk) 05:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Lambic criticism

Unfortunately for the criticism section, the Lambic article itself admits that most of the yeast is located within the fermenting vessels. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 16:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Whether it comes from the air or from the vessels, the yeast that ferments Belgian lambic is "wild", that is, it is not added in regulated doses, nor is a specific strain chosen. In contrast, the Boston Brewing Company adds a specific strain of yeast in controlled doses in order to start fermentation at a prescribed time and for a prescribed interval. This would be the opposite of the intent of Belgian lambic brewers. The Boston Beer Company admits the product is not a Belgian lambic. (See Grant Woods quotation in article.) Guinness323 (talk) 16:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Possibly, but did you actually read what the Lambic article says? It actually cites the primary yeast strains. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 20:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Just because we know the primary yeast strains doing the work and where they reside does not mean that Belgian brewers can count upon the same proportion of each, or indeed any of them at all. Depending on how much yeast from each strain decides to work, and what type of airborne yeast falls into the wort, there is a goodly amount of uncertainty about how each batch will taste. In contrast, the Boston Brewing Company brewer knows exactly how each batch of Cranberry "Lambic" will taste: exactly the same as the previous batch. Guinness323 (talk) 21:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Utopias: "The Worlds Strongest Beer"

I take issue with the freeze distillation used by many of the brewers claiming "strongest beer in the world." I tracked down a reference and cleaned up the section. In principle, anybody could freeze and refreeze Bud Light until it's in excess of 27% alcohol. It's my understanding that Sam Adams actually bred yeast to withstand that higher alcohol content. Stardude82 (talk) 20:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Ignoring the argument on whether freeze distillation is or is not exceptable the beer listed as 57% is not longer the worlds strongest, can someone find out who is at 60% and find an article to verifyDwarvenbierschneeman (talk) 05:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Triple Bock Date

I have not edited this article but I think the commentary could be slightly improved in accuracy.

I do not believe that the Triple Bock was *originally* released in 1994. I had the beer in the spring of 1993 in College Station when a promotional sales person in Dudley's Draw offered them for sale in 12 oz bottles for two dollars each. The price later dropped to $1 each and a couple free by the end of the evening. The bottle was labeled as "malt liquor", oddly enough, but I had no idea of the alcohol content as I had several and woke a few hours later in my apartment with only a hazy memory of having left the bar under my own power. I never found the Triple Bock in 12 oz bottles but suspect the same or very similar beer was what I drank as what is now sold as the Triple Bock in the smaller bottles. I don't seem to recall that the beer was not carbonated but it had the feel of light carbonation. It was extremely potent, to say the least so I wasn't surprised when I saw it sold in smaller bottles as an apertif rather than as a regular beer.

The Sam Adams website confirms the 1993 brew date, as the inauguration of their extreme beer brewing.

Can anyone shed some light on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.12.205.82 (talk) 19:44, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Missing beers

Don't they have more beers than this? I can think of a few off of the top of my head: Bonfire Ale (or something similar); Chocolate Bock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.48.159.183 (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

What about Angry Orchard also? Didn't they acquire Angry Orchard in like 2012 or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.218.206.127 (talk) 06:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Craft beer?

Can they be considered a craft beer? this somewhat reliable source says they are the #1 craft brewer in the us.(mercurywoodrose)99.31.165.157 (talk) 16:38, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Marketing material removed from article

The article contained a section called Current family of beers consisting of marketing prose lifted from Sam Adams (e.g "The dark roasty, and slightly sweet flavors of a stout are blended with the unique, spicy and sour character of our Kosmic Mother Funk (KMF), an ale that's been aged in oak tuns for up to a year") and elsewhere (e.g. "Intense and full bodied with a deep roasted flavor, subtle sweetness, and earthy smokiness from the peat smoked malt.") from a marketing document.

Marketing material removed from article

Current family of beers Core beers Beer title Year introduced Style Description Boston Lager 1984 Pre-Prohibition amber lager This deep amber color lager is brewed using only four ingredients and traditional brewing methods for a full, smooth body. The Noble hop varieties of Hallertau Mittelfrueh and Tettnang Tettnanger add a wide range of floral, piney and citrus notes, which are present from the aroma, through the taste, and all the way to the lingering smooth finish. It has been awarded a Grand Gold Medal by Monde Selection in 2011. Light 2001 Brewed using only two-row malted barley and Bavarian Noble hops, Sam Adams Light has a malt character that is balanced with the citrus fruit notes of the Noble hops. Boston Ale 1987 Red ale First brewed to celebrate the opening of the Boston brewery. Classic English ale hops, East Kent Goldings, and Fuggles are added to the beer. Its red amber color and glow come from the two-row Harrington and crystal malts. Pale Ale 1999 Pale ale Brewed in the classic style with English ale hops and roasted specialty malts. Fuggles and East Kent Goldings hops impart a dry finish to this ale. Noble Pils 2010 Pilsner A pilsner brewed with 5 Noble hop varieties. It is golden in color, clear, and in the style of a Bohemian Pilsner. Brewed with all 5 Noble hops for a distinct hop character and fresh taste. Deep golden in color with a citrusy hop aroma, Samuel Adams Noble Pils is a traditional Bohemian Pilsner. Cherry Wheat 1995 Weissbier Combines Michigan cherries with a large portion of wheat malt. A small amount of honey enhances the natural sweetness of cherries. Cream Stout 1993 Cream stout The Samuel Adams brewers use roasted chocolate and caramel malts as well as unroasted barley. It received a Grand Gold Medal by Monde Selection in 2011. Scotch Ale 1994 Scotch ale This ale is brewed with three special malts, including rare peat-smoked malt that is kilned in Scotland and used in Scotch whiskies. This malt gives Scotch Ale a subtle, smoky flavor and a deep amber hue. Hefeweizen (Retired) 2003 Hefeweizen This fruity wheat ale is cloudy because it is unfiltered, retaining a natural haze from the malt proteins. Bavarian Spalt Noble hops give the beer a smooth aftertaste. *This beer is no longer brewed. Black Lager 2005 Schwarzbier This Black Lager is a Schwarzbier, a traditional style from Eastern Germany. The two-row Munich, Harrington, and deep roasted Carafa malts create the layers of roasted, malty flavors in this beer. Noble hops from the Spalt region of Bavaria are also added. Brown Ale (Retired) 2006 English Brown ale This traditional ale is brewed with a malted barley blend, imparting notes of toasted malt, biscuit, nut and caramel. *This beer is no longer brewed. Honey Porter 1994 Porter An English porter with a substantial roasted malt character offering a sweet finish. This beer is brewed with traditional English Ale hops and is dry-hopped with English Goldings. Irish Red 2008 Irish red ale This ale has a deep red color and distinctive caramel flavor. It is brewed using two-row Harrington and Metcalfe as well as Caramel malts. The hop bitterness balances the sweetness of this medium bodied ale. The beer finishes with an earthy note from the East Kent Goldings hops. The Irish Red Ale has been awarded by Monde Selection with a Grand Gold Medal in 2011. Dunkelweizen 2009 Dunkelweizen This "dark wheat" is a traditional German ale with a dark amber-brown in color. This unfiltered ale is brewed with Bavarian yeast, which imparts a wide spectrum of flavors and aromas. Coastal Wheat 2009 Modified Hefeweizen This wheat beer is a twist on the Hefeweizen style. Brewed with Eureka and Lisbon varieties of lemon that balance the character of the malt blend, resulting in a crisp wheat beer with subtle lemon aroma and flavor. Blackberry Witbier 2009 Witbier This witbier features Oregon Marion Blackberries, with coriander and orange notes. Latitude 48 2009 India Pale Ale A unique IPA brewed with a select blend of hops from top German, English, and American growing regions all located close to the 48th latitude within the “hop belt” of the Northern Hemisphere. Revolutionary Rye Ale 2010 Rye ale Roasted malt sweetness and a spicy rye character. German and American hops add light pine and citrus notes to this medium-bodied brew. Seasonal beers Beer title Year introduced Style Description Samuel Adams Boston 26.2 Brew 2012 A light beer with a slightly lower alcohol level than many other Samuel Adams beers. It will be available exclusively at Boston Marathon-related events, and select pubs and restaurants along the marathon route and around Greater Boston. East-West Kölsch 2011 Kölsch Fragrant and complex, brewed with Spalt Spalter and Strisselspalt hops, with a slight lemon citrus taste from Alsatian hops. This beer also contains a special ingredient: Jasmine Sambac, a Southeast Asian flower, gives the beer a floral aroma and flavor. Rustic Saison 2011 Saison An incredibly complex yet refreshing beer in the classic style of Belgian farmhouse ales. These blonde ales were traditionally brewed to quench the thirst of farmers throughout the summer months. The unique character of this brew comes from its Belgian yeast that imparts floral, fruity, and spicy flavors. Harvest Pumpkin Ale 2010 Pumpkin ale Smooth and roasty, real pumpkin adds to a full body and sweetness while deep roasted malts lend a toasty finish to this subtly spiced brew. This beer is exclusive to the Harvest collection mix pack in the fall and recently in limited release 6 packs. Alpine Spring 2011 Lager Brewed especially for the season, this bright citrusy unfiltered lager is both satisfying and refreshing. It's the perfect transition from winter’s heavier brews to the lighter beers of summer. Borne of our brewers' many trips to Germany, Alpine Spring features a unique blend of lager attributes: the balanced maltiness and hoppiness of a Helles, the smoothness and slightly higher alcohol of a traditional spring bock, and the unfiltered appearance of a Kellerbier. The beer is brewed with Tettnang Noble hops to add a unique, bright orange-citrusy aroma and flavor. It replaced Noble Pils as the Spring seasonal. Available late January through March. Summer Ale 1996 Ale Brewed with wheat malt, lemon zest, and Grains of Paradise, a West African spice, to add a peppery, citrus note that enhances the taste of lemon peel and notes of tropical fruits. Available April through August. Octoberfest 1989 Amber lager Brewed to celebrate the arrival of autumn with an amber hue. This beer contains a blend of four malts – Harrington, Caramel, Munich, and Moravian – to create sweet flavors. The sweetness is balanced by the bitterness imparted by the Noble Bavarian hops. Available Early-August through October. Winter Lager 1989 Lager Brewed in the tradition of celebrating winter. Made with winter spices that include orange zest, cinnamon, and fresh ginger. Available November through Mid-January. Cranberry Lambic 1990 Lambic Samuel Adams Cranberry Lambic is a fruit beer that draws its flavor not just from the cranberries it's brewed with, but also from the unique fermentation character imparted by the weissbier yeast in the primary fermentation. Available November through January. Holiday Porter 2004 Porter A traditional, British style. Robust and full bodied. Available November through January. Old Fezziwig Ale 1995 Spiced ale Spicy and bold, a big Christmas cookie of a beer. Samuel Adams Old Fezziwig Ale is bursting with spices of the season. Available November through January. Dunkelweizen 2009 Dunkelweizen Brewed with authentic Bavarian wheat beer yeast, which imparts a wide spectrum of flavors and aromas from spicy clove and nutmeg to tropical fruit and banana. Available August through October. White Ale 1997 Brewed with 10 exotic spices: orange and lemon peel, dried plum, Grains of Paradise, coriander, anise, hibiscus, rose hips, tamarind, and vanilla. Available late January through March; was formerly the Spring seasonal beer. Extreme beers Beer title Year introduced Description Triple Bock 1994 Noncarbonated and ruby-black - this Triple Bock should be sipped from a small crystal glass in a two-ounce serving. Triple Bock was brewed exclusively in 1994, 1995, and 1997 only. Millennium 2000 A 40-proof beer brewed for celebrations at the Millennium. Brewed exclusively in 2000 only. Utopias 2001 Made from a precise aging process and all-natural ingredients. Samuel Adams Utopias is an uncarbonated and extraordinarily strong beer with 24 to 27 percent alcohol by volume. Chocolate Bock 2003 A dark beer that has malty character, combined with the sweetness of chocolate. The chocolatiers at Scharffen Berger crafted an exclusive blend of chocolate for Samuel Adams made with cocoa beans from Ghana called forastero. As the beer matured, the fruity, tart, earthy, and chocolate aromas were infused into the liquid. Chocolate Bock can be found in the Brewmasters' Variety Box. Hallertau Imperial Pilsner 2005 A beer using large quantities of Hallertau Mittelfrueh hops selected from the Bavarian hops harvest. The intensity of deep citrus, spicy Noble hops flavor is balanced with the sweetness from the malt. Infinium 2010 (limited holiday release) A collaboration from the Boston beer company and Weihenstephan (the world's oldest brewery). Infinium is a champagne style beer made with only the four essential ingredients, malted barley, hops, water and yeast. Infinium is a light and dry beer with a crisp clean malt character, and delicate fruit and spice notes. 10.3% ABV. Imperial beers Beer title Year introduced Style Description Imperial Stout 2009 Russian Imperial stout Huge roasted malt character with smoky, chocolate, and coffee aromas and flavors balanced by an earthy English hop bitterness. Imperial White 2009 Witbier All of the characteristics of a refreshing witbier, but with more flavor and body. This beer delivers new and exciting flavors with every sip Double Bock 1988 Doppelbock Strong malt and caramel character; very smooth, full bodied, low to medium bitterness Wee Heavy 2011 Scotch strong ale Intense and full bodied with a deep roasted flavor, subtle sweetness, and earthy smokiness from the peat smoked malt. Barrel Room Collection beers Beer title Year introduced Style Description New Tripel World 2009 Tripel Pale gold in color, this ale is big, flavorful and complex. A special Belgian yeast strain adds tropical fruit and spice notes to the crisp dry ale, while Saaz hops add a subtle herbal note. (~10% ABV) American Kriek 2009 Kriek lambic The intense black cherry character in this beer comes from Balaton cherries, which were discovered in Hungary and are now grown in Michigan. These special cherries are prized for their depth of flavor. The tartness from the cherries is balanced by a rich, malty character with toasted oak notes added from the barrel aging. (~7% ABV) Stony Brook Red 2009 This unique brew defies traditional beer style definition. The rich, malty brew combines notes of tart fruit from the yeast with a toasty oak character from the barrel aging. The long dry finish is almost wine-like. This is a beer that is satisfying on its own and also pairs well with many foods such as braised or roasted meats, beef stews and strong salty cheeses. (9% ABV) Thirteenth Hour 2011 The combination of 7 different malts creates a brilliant black brew that's full bodied and smooth with rich notes of coffee, chocolate, and dark fruits like raisins and plums. The dark roasty, and slightly sweet flavors of a stout are blended with the unique, spicy and sour character of our Kosmic Mother Funk (KMF), an ale that's been aged in oak tuns for up to a year. The KMF gives the beer an added complexity with notes of black pepper, oak, vanilla, and a hint of acidity. (~8% ABV)

I have moved all of this egregious commercial material into the green collapsible box above in case anyone who is interested can find a way of listing the products without including the brown-nosing bullshit. I am not interested in going to the trouble of re-coding the tables as text or lists. None of the material should be restored to the article unless reliable third party sources can be provided to support its inclusion in the article – the entire section was unreferenced. — O'Dea (talk) 08:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Several Costcos in Washington have a small quantity of this brew as of December 5, 2013. This likely because of the passage of I-1183 which allows spirits -- considered drinks above 15% ABV -- to be sold in certain retail establishments in the state. Removed Washington from the list of states where this drink is banned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.2.80 (talk) 07:34, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Jim Koch and his lone founding partner Rhonda Kallman

Please be aware that your history of founders at Boston Beer is complete fabrication. Jim Koch started Boston Beer with his partner Rhonda Kallman ( my wife)who headed up sales and marketting until 2000 when she retired after the company went public. Both Mr Rubin and Mr. lamadrid were some of the early investors who had zero input on day to day operations or input of product names ect,that they are mentioned at all is a complete outrage. Should you like to confirm I would be happy to put you in touch with Jim Koch. Regards, Matt Shanley

• I'm not insensitive to your claim, however, I don't think you need to be outraged either. Wikipedia requires valid independent sources of information. While I have no doubt you are telling the truth about being related and have an inside view of events, the fact is that 1) you are by definition not a neutral source of information and 2) there are independent sources which indicate Lamadrid and Rubin were co-founders (I've added one from CBS). On this basis, it seems fair to leave Rubin and Lamadrid in the article. If you feel that strongly about it, I suppose we could have a subtopic in the article which addresses this controversy surrounding the founding of the company, but that seems to give undue weight to an otherwise reasonably well sourced fact. ButtonwoodTree (talk) 14:40, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I see no reason for controversy; Boston Beer Company's own website clearly states who founded the company. Early small investors are not mentioned as founders.. 65.96.42.245 (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I've reverted the edits again. The website doesn't say that Kallman was a founder. It says that in the first few years "Jim Koch and his partner, Rhonda Kallman, were the only employees." There's no mention of her as a founder. Is there an independent source that claims she is a "founder" of the company? Prof. Mc (talk) 21:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you a friend of Mr. Rubin or his PR agent??, I see you defending him in some of your other posts. Your attempts at altering Boston Beer history by including 2 individuals who had nothing to do with running or founding the company is pathetic. Would you like to join me in a conference call with Jim Koch so HE can tell you who HIS founding partner was?? Stop spreading mis information and compromising Wikipidia.Beachisland (talk) 11:40, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

@Beachisland:Hi! I've reverted your edits again. This time your edits resulted in code being displayed in the text of the main body. You might want to take some time to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's editing policy, the links to which I see have been posted to your talk page already. (For example, when replying to someone, put your paragraph directly under the one to which you're replying, and indent using a : to indent.) With regard to the conference call, that's generous (and more on that in a few lines), but you might want to review WP:CITEHOW first. Given how important this obviously is to you [this page is the only one you've edited using this account, and you continue to repeat the same edits despite the reverts and the advice you've been given], I would think that you'd take a step back and figure out how to achieve your goals within the given parameters.

For example, a quick Internet search turns up an interview at Business Insider [1] in which Koch says:

Though Koch himself has a prestigious background — including an MBA and a JD from Harvard and six years spent at the mega-competitive Boston Consulting Group — Boston Beer was brewed by salt of the earth. His founding partner was Rhonda Kallman, a 23-year-old secretary at BCG. "Had I picked as my partner one of those high-powered MBAs, I would never have gotten the energy, the drive, the creativity that Rhonda brought," Koch says. "She had a different experience set than I did. She knew people, she knew bars, she knew what it was like to be at the bottom of the totem pole." To this day, Koch says his first hire was his best hire.

That interview leads to another page where the claim is more or less repeated. Given that other sources cite other founders, we now have a few different sources that make some different claims, using different language, about the "founders" and early "employees."

Here's your chance. Don't just try to alter the article in a way that calls into question your neutrality (WP:COI, WP:NPOV). Take some time to actually make the Sam Adams article better. Write a bit more. As @ButtonwoodTree: suggested, start a subtopic. Put it on this talk page under a new sub-header and get some advice on how to write it in a way that keeps the prose POV-neutral. I know that's more work than you probably want to do, but it will be a very good contribution to this article, and will make it better. And after all, that's what you want, right? This is about improving the article, and not just ensuring that your wife's name is on the front page, right?

Now, as to the conference call with Koch. I'll be happy to participate. I usually get to talk to him at the GABF, and have had the pleasure of him serving Utopias from a keg for me, but any chance to talk with him would be fun. It wouldn't have any bearing on this topic. But still.

For now, can you please take a break from introducing the same edits in the same manner? If they're unsourced and violate WP:NPOV and WP:COI they're going to get reverted, and at some point it becomes disruptive. You've been given some pretty good advice--more than most people get who are doing what you're doing--on how to improve the page and include the information that you have. So, there's a path for you here. Please consider taking it. I think you'll be surprised at how much people are willing to welcome you, and to help you improve the Sam Adams article. Prof. Mc (talk) 13:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

When I saw the edit reversions this morning, I didn't know anything about who founded Boston Beer Co. However, by coincidence, an hour later I watched Beer Wars, a 2009 documentary in which Rhonda Kallman plays a prominent role. Jim Koch is also interviewed, and states that at the beginning, it was only him and Rhonda Kallman. That made me curious about this whole issue, so I started to look around for sources backing up either the "Rhonda Kallman" version or the "Rubin/Lamadrid" version.

Rubin/Lamadrid: I have only been able to find two sources mentioning either Rubin or Lamadrid being a part of Boston Beer Co.:

a) the CBS Boston article used as the only source of this info for this wiki (http://boston.cbslocal.com/top-lists/5-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-history-of-bostons-craft-beer-revolution/) states "He [Koch] teamed up with Harry Rubin and Lorenzo Lamadrid to found Samuel Adams Boston Lager..." It does not say anything about the role of Rubin and Lamadrid;

b) Rubin's profile at Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/profile/harry-rubin/) mentions that he was a founding partner of Boston Beer Co. (Interestingly, Lorenzo Lamadrid's Forbes profile does not mention any involvement with Boston Beer Co.)

Kallman: I have found a number of very recent sources that indicate the company originally was only Koch and Kallman:

a) The Craft Beer Revolution (Steve Hindy, 2014, Palgrave MacMillan, New York, p.48): "In the beginning, the Boston Beer Company consisted of two people, Koch and Rhonda Kallman, a smart executive secretary from BCG. She left the security of BCG to join Koch in a humble office in Boston. To entice Kallman to join him, Koch told her, 'I've never failed at anything that was really important to me and this is really important to me.'"

b) Q&A: Jim Koch on story behind the rise of Samuel Adams beer (Washington Post, 29 June 2014, http://www.concordmonitor.com/news/work/business/12577515-95/qa-jim-koch-on-story-behind-the-rise-of-samuel-adams-beer): "Q: Did you go it alone? A: Originally, the team was me and a woman named Rhonda Kallman who had been my secretary at Boston Management Consulting. She loved bars, that was really her natural habitat, and she would bartend at night. I knew how to make beer, and she knew bars. We made a great team."

c) History of Samuel Adams (http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/the-boston-beer-company-inc-history/):

"1983: C. James Koch starts The Boston Beer Company with Rhonda L. Kallman.

1985: Koch and Kallman sell the first cases of Samuel Adams Boston Lager."

It is clear from the sources that Kallman played a central role in the company, albeit as its first employee, and I would suggest that a sentence be inserted into the article to indicate this.

However, I can find no sources that indicate that Rubin and Lamadrid were anything other than two of the original investors. No sources have been provided for the statements that Rubin handled the "financial and business management role", that Rubin and Lamadrid helped with recipe optimization, or that they helped choose the name "Samuel Adams" for the first beer. Indeed, in several of the sources quoted above, Koch indicates that choosing the name "Samuel Adams" was his decision alone. In light of the lack of supporting sources, I would suggest that references to Rubin and Lamadrid as anything other than investors be removed unless anyone can bring forward sources supporting a more central role in the early company. Guinness323 (talk) 19:20, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I think a number of us have probably seen the Kallman information. As I noted earlier, if people feel this issue is that controversial, then let's start a subtopic. As for the sources, the fact is that there are sources for both versions and I see no reason to give greater credence to the Kallman sources versus the others. ButtonwoodTree (talk) 11:13, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Although the original post of this subsection made the issue "Kallman vs Rubin/Lamadrid", I don't believe this is a "either/or" issue. The involvement of these parties in the early company are two separate issues, and should each be resolved on their own merits. As suggested by ButtonwoodTree (talk), I have broken the two issues out into separate subtopics.Guinness323 (talk) 16:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Rhonda Kallman as first employee

The issue has arisen as to whether Rhonda Kallman should be mentioned in this article. As I mentioned above, several credible secondary sources have taken the time to earmark her as central to the early successes of the company. Was she an original investor? The sources do not confirm this. Was she the first -- and for some time, the only -- employee? Yes, several of the sources note that Koch lured her from her job at BMC. A sentence indicating her central role in the early company should be added to the article, using the sources I have mentioned or any others that are germane. Guinness323 (talk) 16:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Rubin and Lamadrid: Early investors or early company management?

The article currently states that Rubin and Lamadrid helped with company management, branding decisions and product development. However, the only source used simply indicates that they were original investors. Statements about their further involvement have no references. I have not been able to find any other sources to support these statements. Unless someone else is able to provide corroborating sources, those statements about their close involvement in the early days of the company should be removed. Guinness323 (talk) 16:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)