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Talk:Casatiello

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Casatiéllo
Casatiéllo
  • ... that the first mention of Casatiello (pictured) is in the 17th-century Neapolitan fairy tale La gatta cenerentola? Source: "È sicuro invece che nel Seicento il casatiello faceva parte della cucina napoletana. Anche se ignoriamo da quanto tempo...la fonte di questa certezza è Lo cunto de li cunti di Giambattista Basile" ([1])
    • ALT1: ... that the ring shape of Casatiello (pictured) represents the crown of thorns of the crucifix? Source: "Il casatiello ha anche una simbologia cristiana, ovvero rappresenta la corona di spine del crocifisso." ([2])

Created by Alessandro57 (talk). Self-nominated at 17:27, 5 November 2021 (UTC).[reply]

  • @Alessandro57: Nominated on the same day it was created, and is about 3300 bytes, satisfying date and length criteria. The phrase "typical of the Neapolitan cuisine" appears to be a literal translation of "tipico della cucina Napoletana", which does not quite mean the same thing; per definition 1b (search for 'cucina t.') at Treccani, the Italian phrase means "di una regione o località", so a better translation may be "originating from Naples" or some such. (That is, the English word "typical" does not have the same meaning as the Italian "tipico" in this sense.) A similar issue arises with "typical of Easter". This ref is used to support the claim "preferably in a wood-fired oven", but wood-fired ovens are not mentioned there. I am assuming good faith for two offline sources (de Bourcard and AA.VV.). Although correct, I would change "...the eggs are placed whole..." (or maybe one of the other mention of eggs) to mention they are whole raw eggs. (I base this on The Vanity Fair article, which states "Cospargete di strutto la superficie del casatiello e sormontatela, qui e là, di uova crude, fuoriuscenti dalla ciambella...", but I notice other refs state they are hard-boiled eggs, such as this ref which says "Le uova sode infatti vengono posizionate anche come decorazione...".) The text states "...at around 160-170 C for about 60-75 minutes...", but the Vanity Fair article says "... Cuocete in forno (statico) a 160° per 45/50 minuti. ..."; is there a reason for the discrepancy (the time difference seems quite significant). Not necessary for DYK, but the variants section can be rephrased to dispense with the parentheticals. I cannot find mention of Caserta or "coastal Vesuvian area" in the cited source (ref 13). I think you used an incorrect URL for ref 15, as it is the same as ref 14. QPQ forthcoming. The image is fine at that size, but not particularly compelling to depict the subject. The other image in the article is suitable for DYK (albeit, it doesn't depict the shape). Other freely-licenced photos include Casatiello in Rome 2017.jpg, those in Category:Casatiello, or even these images on Flickr.
  • So, there are a number of issues to fix, but they are mostly straightforward. Mindmatrix 14:47, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Mindmatrix: thank you very much for the extremely detailed and useful review. I think I have corrected all the points you pointed out. Regarding the image, you're right, Casatiello In Rome is better: if only they had cleaned the tablecloth... :-) But maybe I can ask the Photographic Lab to do something about it. One question about flickr images: in order to use them, should I first upload them into Commons? As soon as I find a decent article for the QPQ, I'll ping you again! Thanks again, Alex2006 (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Alessandro57: Regarding the Flickr images, yes, please upload them to Commons first. I've uploaded a batch (from this set) to Category:Preparation of Casatiello (though those photos are not of the traditional bread; it is boule-shaped and omits the eggs). I use Flickr2Commons to copy appropriately-licenced files, and it adds the necessary attribution. The current image (with dirty tablecloth replaced by a neutral background) looks good. The changes you've made address the issues I raised above. Is Giallo Zafferano a reliable source? It seems that it has dedicated blogs (such as Cuochinprogress used in this article), but I can't find information about the author or any editorial review. (When I click on the author name, I get only a list of recipes.) The ref itself does not cite its sources.
  • I failed to mention earlier that the hook is short enough and sourced. Two minor points: should the heading "way of saying" perhaps be retitled "In popular culture", and is the literal translation "The cat Cinderella" accurate? I've read (from this) the passage starting at "La nova matreia..." and can follow it up to "...seta e d’oro", and can understand some of the subsequent words, but I'm trying to figure out what is meant by "...da Zezolla fu chiammata Gatta Cennerentola", because I translate that as "was called by Zezolla 'Cennerentola the cat'"; I though Zezolla was Cinderella, so is she referring to herself here? Does 'gatta' have a better, non-literal translation, for example in the same way that the idiomatic expression cool cat is used in English? If not, would "Cinderella the cat" be more suitable?
  • Also, as a complete aside, somebody needs to add pesantone to Wiktionary. Mindmatrix 16:38, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Mindmatrix: thank you very much again for your review! About your questions: GialloZafferano is the most popular recipe website in Italy, but you are right, the article is actually an anonymous blog contribution, so I added two other references. About Cinderella the cat, this was the new name of Zezolla after she fell into disgrace: so "Cinderella the cat" is correct! Thanks again and cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 06:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Mindmatrix:, this is a good point: actually a crucifix is not a cross, but denotes Jesus on the cross, so I think that it is correct. If you want we can substitute "crucifix" with "Jesus on the cross", maybe is clearer (now I have inserted a link). "Jesus on the crucifix" is definitively wrong, that would mean that we have two Jesuses. For the moment we have managed to have two popes, but to have two Jesuses there is still a long way to go... :-) Alex2006 (talk) 16:43, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT1 to T:DYK/P6 without image

Casatiéllo or Casatiello

[edit]

Which is it? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:53, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Depends, @The Rambling Man: :-) If you are Neapolitan, possibly you don't need the accent (they know how to pronounce it), otherwise it is better to have it. Alex2006 (talk) 11:12, 28 November 2021 (UTC) P.S. About the mask, I agree 100% with you, although in my case it didn't help much. :-([reply]
The correct spelling is "casatiello" because in the Italian language graphic accent only goes on the last letter, but if there's a talk among linguists we can write "casatiéllo" when we want to highlight the tonic accent (or "stress"), since È and É are pronounced very differently in Italian. That's a sort of primitive IPA, lol. —Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 01:05, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Treccani is not a source for the neapolitan language is apodyctical. Then bring a neapolitan source. "è" is open, and in neapolitan the word is pronouncecd open. Alex2006 (talk) 05:48, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Alessandro57: Not at all. I am Neapolitan, we pronounce it "casatiéllo". I'm a linguist, but I never heard "casatièllo" in my life. You clearly don't know the rules about accents in Italian and Neapolitan, but I already told you that graphic accent only goes on the last letter of a word, so stop edi t warring. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 05:52, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you are neapolitan does nor exempt you to bring a source. Bring a source and change the article, until then it remains as it is, thanks. Alex2006 (talk) 05:54, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Alessandro57: No, you don't make the rules of Italian language. Just Google "Graphic accent in Italian". For transparency, I talked about this issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Italy#Casatiello. Regards, Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 06:01, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
About accents in Italian:
Additional sources about the tonic accent on casatiéllo:
Native Wikipedias:
I hope that helps you understand, Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 06:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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