Talk:Civil parishes in Cornwall
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Wolfe Rock Lighthouse Extra-Parochial Area
[edit]I want to query the following sentence:
- The former Wolfe Rock Lighthouse Extra-Parochial Area is unparished
This only makes sense if the Wolfe Rock Lighthouse Extra-Parochial Area is being used as a proper noun. And the capitalisation of E-P A also suggests this. But I can find no reference to an organisation, or other formal entity, called that.
The other reading is that the capitalisation of E-P A is a mistake, and this is simply a reference to an area that is extra-parochial. But then I don't understand the former, as the area is still unparished and hence extra-parochial. I'm strongly tempted to rewrite this paragraph as something like:
- The Wolfe Rock is unparished
but I may be getting it wrong. For now, I will content myself with adding a fact tag. If noone comes up with an explanatory reference in a reasonable timescale, I will reconsider. -- Starbois (talk) 13:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- Later. I also note that both the WP article and Trinity House spell it as Wolf Rock. Perhaps we are talking about a different place. Even more reason for a reference. -- Starbois (talk) 13:44, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- Extra-parochial areas existed in the United Kingdom until local government reorganisation in 1974, although almost all had been abolished in the 19th century. They were legally defined and named. Why Wolfe Rock was used rather than Wolf Rock remains a mystery (perhaps the spelling in everyday language has changed over the years?). There again, it could just be an error on the Vision of Britain website. However, it is the only citation we have, unless you know someone with access to Local Administrative Units: Southern England by F Youngs, published by the Royal Historical Society in 1979, which appears to be the original source of the information. The details of this legal entity, which was included in West Penwith Rural District can be found at Vision of Britain. The name and phrase format is in common with all the other sub-pages of List of civil parishes in England, such as The former Exeter County Borough is unparished. Since local government reorganisation in 1974, such areas have been referred to as unparished areas and the number has increased considerably, as most larger urban districts, municipal boroughs and county boroughs also became unparished areas.
- There is a similar anomaly in the East Riding of Yorkshire, where the former civil parish of Bull Fort vanished after 1974, and is now technically an unparished area. Like Wolfe/Wolf Rock, it has no population. Quite why these two outposts at sea had a legal existence, when others like Eddystone didn't, I have never been able to fathom. To be honest, I wouldn't have any strong objection to references to both being removed. I don't think they are particularly useful, and there are other forts, rocks, lighthouses which are unparished, but which never get a mention anywhere in local government terms. However, I suppose someone is going to stumble across them on Vision of Britain some day and wonder what happened to them, so there may also be an argument to keep them. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Discussion on structure of civil parishes list
[edit]Zangar (talk) 15:01, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009) has been cut-and-paste from List of civil parishes in Cornwall, which is now occupied by an article which is largely duplicating this page. The new title (List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009)) is misleading, as the list includes the new parishes created after 2009, and did so at the time of the move. This appears to be a clear case of content forking. The only new information added at List of civil parishes in Cornwall is whether there is a parish council or parish meeting; and a break-up of the list by alphabetical letters; both of which could have been included as an edit to the original.
It would be better to move this page back to its original position (where it formed one of the sub-pages of List of civil parishes in England. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
A recent history merge
[edit]- See also discussion in User talk:Skinsmoke#List of civil parishes in Cornwall.
- Hi, I see you [= User:Anthony Appleyard] merged List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009) into List of civil parishes in Cornwall after a request from Skinsmoke. Unfortunately I don't think this was the correct move and was a little hasty. Although it was a content fork, there was no real new/different content there, so no need for a merge - I think a better course of action would be to either delete List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009) or keep it, ensuring the new civil parishes were not included. Also, after much discussion at WikiProject Cornwall the original version at List of civil parishes in Cornwall was the most up-to-date and should remain on that page. Would you be able to revert List of civil parishes in Cornwall back to the its state as it was before the merging please? We can then always assess the need to delete the pre-2009 article. Cheers Zangar (talk) 12:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- At 22:31 on 25 May 2010 User:Andy F cut-and-pasted List of civil parishes in Cornwall to List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009), and started a new page in List of civil parishes in Cornwall. This histmerge had be repaired: I moved the (edits of List of civil parishes in Cornwall after this cut-and-paste) to List of civil parishes in Cornwall/version 2 and then history-merged List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009) into List of civil parishes in Cornwall. Restoring the complerte status-quo would need splitting a valid continuous running edit history. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Hadn't it been agreed that the two lists both had their place? DuncanHill (talk) 15:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cornwall/Archive_3#Updating_parishes_and_local_councils. DuncanHill (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have to say, the speed with which two editors decided to ignore the discussion at the Wikiproject, and produce as a result an incorrect redirect is not good. Please can we have the pre-2009 list back, and maybe an attempt at allowing debate to go on for more than a few hours before any more such changes? DuncanHill (talk) 16:01, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: I think the problem is the method in which the changes were made (cut-and-paste), not the changes themselves. Anthony Appleyard: If we had originally moved List of civil parishes in Cornwall to List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009) (ignoring the actual content of it, as Skinsmoke has pointed out it wasn't entirely correct) and then Andy F had copied and pasted his new version into the List of civil parishes in Cornwall article from his sandbox, would this have been acceptable? Zangar (talk) 16:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- The two lists are at List of civil parishes in Cornwall and List of civil parishes in Cornwall/version 2. It would have been better if at 22:31, 25 May 2010 User:Andy F had created his new list in a new article name, and had asked me to perform any needed obstructed page moves. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- So Anthony could you please do that now? Because we've been left with an incorrect redirect, the loss of Andy's hard work, and histories that a lot of us can't understand. DuncanHill (talk) 16:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- My histmerge has put the files to as if Andy had put his new list in List of civil parishes in Cornwall/version 2. What seems to be now needed may be List of civil parishes in Cornwall to somewhere and then List of civil parishes in Cornwall/version 2 to List of civil parishes in Cornwall. The history of List of civil parishes in Cornwall is now complete continuous with no breaks caused by deleting and overwriting. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 18:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks Anthony, although the histories do seem a little confusing. But before we do any more moving around of article histories I think it maybe worth upgrading this list to a sortable wikitable, keeping with the upgrades that are being rolled out across List of civil parishes in x articles for England and Wales. I have discussed this with Skinsmoke here at User talk:Skinsmoke#List of civil parishes in Cornwall. What do people think? Zangar (talk) 22:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Discussions copied from other locations regarding October 2010 article upgrade
[edit]All discussions below are closed, if you wish to contribute, please start a new topic
Copied from User talk:Skinsmoke/Sandbox/Civil parishes/Kernow
[edit]Text from Skinsmoke's sandbox talk page
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Former Districts[edit]The table needs a column for the pre-2009 districts/boroughs. DuncanHill (talk) 11:53, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Skinsmoke (talk) 11:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC) Alphabetical order[edit]All the "St"s should sort before Saltash, (i comes before l in the alphabet). DuncanHill (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:DuncanHill, but belongs here[edit]
I'll just say I really don't have a preference here (come on guys, why does it really matter anyway?) as long as whatever is done is consistent. One thing of relevance (and probably should be incorporated into the table) is the ONS code available here. The ONS codes for parishes are assigned (with a few exceptions) in alphabetic order, so Advent is 00HE001, Altarnun is 00HE002 etc. South Petherwin is 00HE126 and St Agnes 00HE128, so Cornwall sorts St as St not Sa. However, in other counties with St X parishes the generally preferred sort location is Sa not St (the ratio is 4:1), for example Roborough is 18UK049, St Giles in the Wood 18UK050 and Shebbear 18UK052. It must be said that Cornwall has more "St X" parishes than the others combined (I think). Also the names according to the ONS are typically "St. X" with the exception of St Ives, Cambs and St Annes-on-Sea both of which are written as "Saint", this may or may not reflect a legislative distinction.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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Copied from User talk:Skinsmoke
[edit]
Hi, I noticed that on your request that List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009) was merged into List of civil parishes in Cornwall. Although I agree fully with your above statement that the pre-2009 article was not fit for purpose, after discussion at WikiProject Cornwall we agreed that original version at List of civil parishes in Cornwall was the most up-to-date and should remain on that page. I have asked the admin who carried out the merging to see if they can revert it and then I think a better course of action would be to consider whether we either improve or delete the pre-2009 article. One of the main problems we had with how the information was presented on the (now) pre-2009 article was the inclusion of the former Municipal Borough and Rural/Urban Districts in the Notes section - as Cornwall became a unitary authority, people might assume these were the former District Councils that the UA replaced - therefore a split would be needed to preserve this info. (Sorry if that all seems confusing, after the merge it's hard to be clear about which version/page I'm talking about, please ask if you need clarification) On another note I agree that a common format would be good for the List of civil parishes in x for England and Wales. I see that there have been some discussions on various Users' talk pages on this - would it be best to have a discussion on this in a centralised location so all editors of List of civil parishes in x could contribute and be aware of it, if it ever gets rolled out? Perhaps on Talk:List of civil parishes in England? Cheers, Zangar (talk) 14:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
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Copied from User talk:Zangar
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Hi Zander. Thanks for your comments. I've replied at some length, with suggestions on how to incorporate your additions, on my Talk page. Please let me know there what you think. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Ah good! Nilfanion has been creating a whole load of new maps for the UK. His location maps are here: commons:User:Nilfanion/Maps/Location maps and county-based maps (where I found the civil parishes one) here: commons:User:Nilfanion/Maps/Counties. That might help others in future. That makes sense about Wolf Rock. Zangar (talk) 11:05, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
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Old list article moved to subpage here
[edit]I've moved List of civil parishes in Cornwall/version 2 out of article space to Talk:Civil parishes in Cornwall/List of civil parishes in Cornwall (version 2), a subpage of this page. We shouldn't have subpages in article space (see WP:Subpages) and the list seems to be substantially the same as the one in the current version of the article. It contains some edit history, so I reckon it ought to be preserved as an archive. —SMALLJIM 12:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- A sensible idea. We can also host the page over at WikiProject Cornwall, if we later don't want this in talk space. Cheers, Zangar (talk) 17:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
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