Talk:Closer (baseball)

Careful with closer links

not all relief pitchers are closers, but all closers are relief pitchers. Many links here should be to Relief Pitcher not closer. The closer role came into exisitance in the 1970s, so any pitcher playing before that cannot be called a closer.

Reduce list?

Could we reduce the list of notable closers? It's very long...

Jarfingle 01:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's longish, but until a couple of weeks ago it didn't even inlcude John Wetteland, who was (remarkably) the World Series MVP as well as Reliever of the Year (1996)! So the list may need just a little finessing. Pinkville 03:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

We could remove a lot of the more recent ones. Seriously, Chad Cordero? Danny Graves? Danys Baez? B.J. Ryan? Huston Street? Woodshed 09:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Editing Details

well Woodshed, i think that adding details about the pitchers (mvp, cy youngs) is not something that should be under "Closers" because what the article should be basically saying is what a closer is, not their accomplishments. Personally i don't think their names should be included either but well, i think it's okay if they prefer to add names. And yeah, you are right, if i removed mvps and cy youngs i should have also removed the historical records. At the moment i thought that (and i still think) that was relevant because is an article about MLB closers and the save record is 100% related to that, when Mariano Rivera winning the mvp award is not 100% related to closers in general, that's Mariano's accomplishment. I didn't like how it looked, it was just a mess. I don't think the information was relevant, again, the article is about closers not closers awards or accomplishments. --CesarCossio 05:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

When a closer wins a major award like an MVP or a Cy, it's a rarity. But I have no problem with its current status. Woodshed 07:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Woodshed. There should be a mention of these rare feats. Since the old version did look cluttered, why don't we add a Trivia section or Awards section and list the awards. For example, "Closers who have won Cy Youngs", "Closers who have won World Series MVP's", etc.Ags412 08:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

that's a very good idea Ags412, someone should do that. Excellent idea again. what do you think about that Woodshed? --CesarCossio 16:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Another possible way to sperate the list of closers, maybe we can first have a list of "300 Save" closers and maybe a list of a few other notable closers without 300 saves and then have lastly have an "Active Closers" list later on.Ags412 16:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a good idea by Ags412. As far as the "300 saves" thing, I don't really know that the save stat has a widely remembered plateau, like "300 wins", "500 homers", "3000 hits", etc. etc. But 300 saves is a good number since it encompasses about 20 guys -- same as 300 wins and 500 HRs.

I don't know about having an "active closers" list, since that's bound to change frequently given the revolving door of closers. I just don't know if we want this article to undergo constant edits when closers get promoted/demoted, to say nothing of teams that use 2 closers. (I would rather have it be a more static "established closers" list -- like Hoffman, Rivera, Wagner, Gagne, Izzy, etc. etc. But who knows if relative newcomers like Cordero, Ryan, Papelbon, Fuentes, Jenks, Turnbow, will be around in 3 years?)

But if we are going to do an active list, why not do active closers by team? That would keep the list devoid of the roaming "current established closers" who aren't closing at the moment -- those middling "guys who used to be closers and maybe could be again, but for now get the occasional save" like, say, Tom Gordon for the past few years. Woodshed 22:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea by Ages412 again. I also like the idea of a closer list by teams. The only thing i'm worried about is that the page is going to get pretty big because all the things you want to add (cy young, mvp, current closers, established closers, closers from the past, etc) that's a pretty long list of people. How about setting like a minimum number of saves for those people to be in the list, like, i don't know, 200, 300. If they have at least 200 saves that means they closed for at least 4 years and that way we don't have names like "papelbon and street or cordero for that matter (i'm not sure about that (if he has more that 200 saves) BUT he is not a closer anymore (although he might start doing it again" I don't know, that's just an idea. If we add all the things you guys said the page will be big and i wouldn't mind as long as it is organized (which was not the case before with all the "2000 cy young winner" or "2000 world series mvp winner") If anyone finds a way to get all that information in there without the page becoming a mess i wouldn't mind at all. You could add minor league closers if you want as long as it is organized (i'm exagerating a little) --CesarCossio 07:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

My only concern with this article containing a list of the 200+ save guys: Shouldn't that be under save (sport)? We could just refer to that. That article's list isn't very extensive, but it could be expanded over there. I'm not sure what the WP policy on repeating info is.

I went ahead added some charts. Lemme know what you think, or change 'em into something better! Woodshed 11:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice job on the charts, especially the current closers one. We'll have to keep watch on this one of course, as it could change any day. Also, Hoyt Wilhelm should be on the HOF closers list.Ags412 12:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so I added Wilhelm and somehow screwed up the alignment of the column. Can someone help fix it?Ags412 12:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Added some links, screwed up the alignment again. Please help. Thanks.Ags412 12:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I fixed it. Looks like you killed a couple of |} things that close the tables. I added Jim Konstanty too, though I'm sure someone will eventually take issue with that given his era. Woodshed 18:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the alignments. Is there a wikipage where I can become more familiar with the codes? Good job by Woodshed and anyone else who helped fix up this page. This is a very good looking page now. Lots of interesting and well-organized information.Ags412 22:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

All I know is Wikipedia:How to use tables and more generally, Wikipedia:How to edit a page. Woodshed 03:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Dude Wooshed, good job on editing the page. It looks pretty nice, and thanks to Ages412 for the idea too.--CesarCossio 17:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed images

Why was Rollie Fingers' picture and the team logos removed from this page? Was there a copyright violation or something? If not, I think those graphics added to the page significantly and should be returned.Ags412 08:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not worth really going into in length. Suffice it to say that Ed g2s, the mod who made those changes, is part of the "fair use" police here on WP. There's some disagreement about the stringent nature of WP's fair use policy -- as a law student, I can tell you that most people on WP are pretty clueless on the subject -- but it is what it is. According to the powers that be, the Fingers picture is only licensed for the Rollie Fingers page, not any others. And as for the logos, that's apparently not allowed for that same reason, as well as some nebulous and subjective idea they are "unnecessary" and "purely decorative" (I'd guess Ed g2s has never seen a WP soccer tournament page). It appears to be official policy, so I don't think edit warring over it is necessary or worth doing here. If you want to read up on some of these past debates, see Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use/Fair_use_images_in_lists, Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fair_use.

(I cleaned up the current closers chart to better streamline it from the state Ed left it in.) Woodshed 09:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Woodshed

ok, i just finished watching the 18-inning Astros' game and Brad Lidge was still the closer so how come you changed that right now?? --CesarCossio 09:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"I'm going to take him out of the closer's role," Garner said. [1] [2] Woodshed 09:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

oh wow, you are fast. I wasn't saying that you were wrong or anything, i just wanted to know 'cause i didn't watch the news or read any articles so yeah, well thanks :-D --CesarCossio 09:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as he has been closing as of late and the depth chart[3] says he is the closer, I put him back on. --Rabbethan

He hasn't been closing "of late"; he hasn't been brought in in a save situation since his demotion. Also, Dan Wheeler has a 17-inning scoreless streak. Woodshed 06:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

You spoke to soon good sir, as in the 9th inning of a 7-4 game against the Pirates, Brad Lidge came in and got the S. Also, weather or not Wheeler has a scoreless streak, he is not the closer. The article you provided as "proof" that Lidge was no longer the closer states that there is no closer on the team, so until there is some proof that Wheeler is designated the closer by the Astros, I will continue to use the Astros Depth Chart previously linked and this last game as a basis for putting Lidge as the closer. --Rabbethan 10:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying I was right when I posted that (and your edit was premature)? And then he subsequently regained the role? Thanks for the clarification, I think.

In other news, the MLB.com depth charts are often outdated or erroneous. (For example, David DeJesus is the starting left AND center fielder for the Royals. Amazing!) Woodshed 00:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I am saying that while you may have been right about Lidge losing his starting spot, you had no reason to replace him with Dan Wheeler. And I'm not doing this because I am some kind of Lidge fan, his blown saves kill me just as they do any Astro fan, I just know that you were wrong, but maybe I was too. Maybe we should have put "Closer by Commitee" or something of that sort.

I think it was pretty obvious that Lidge wasn't the closer. That makes Wheeler the de facto closer in my book. YMMV. Woodshed 02:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Your book obviously needs a new editor. Rabbethan 23:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL. Woodshed 01:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Evolution of the Closer

Fredandasta edited the Closer page to reflect, "More clearly defined details of how a 'save' is measured. There are several more important factors that go into closing a game that weren't mentioned here."

I do not disagree with everything he said, and perhaps this article does need some fixing, but I don't think his edit met some wikipedia standards. To point out a few, I mentioned that his edit included "personal opinion (i.e. save is bad measure), original research (i.e. the evolution of the closer), and everything is unsourced".

I would be interested in other's opinions on the article. Does his edit fit? Is there a way we can fix his edit? Please discuss.Ags412 01:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverted Edits

Fredandasta edited the Closer page with edits that seemed to reflect original research and opinions, and his only sources were putting "(baseball-reference)" - which is not a proper source. Also note that a very clear definition of what constitutes a save is on the Save (baseball statistics) page. Re-writing it here is redundant considering the link to that page.

Fredandasta, I am not trying to criticize your edits, but you should discuss major edits on this page and ask other's opinions before adding possibly opinionated edits.Ags412 05:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Moved

Why was this moved from Closer (baseball) with no discussion?--Rabbethan 03:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC) This was deleted while I fixed a botched move. Restored by me. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes I feel it should return to Closer (baseball) as that is the link from the Closer disambiguation page. I have never in my life heard of the term "Closing pitcher". Kraikk 07:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, closing pitcher is a term I've seen used. "CP" is the abbreviation listed when defining the roles for the bullpen on a roster. (Refering to an unofficial roster like in a video game or something, not an official MLB roster which doesn't differentiate different roles of pitchers.) Either way, I think "Closer (baseball)" is the way to go.Ags412 (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Gossage

I don't know how to edit the tables, but someone should add Gossage to the HOF closers list.

History of the Term 'Closer'?

I don't know when the term 'closer' surfaced, but I'm pretty sure I never heard it before 1979. After several years overseas without access to baseball, I returned to the U.S. and the term was pretty well commonplace. Does anyone know when this term, and in fact this role became prominent. It used to be the case that a manager would bring in his 'ace' reliever anytime the situation was dire. I don't recall any pitcher being saved specifically until the final inning before the '80's...

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ags412 (talk • contribs) 19:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC) 

Hoffman - Rivera?

Just thinking: shouldn't there be a picture of Hoffman instead of or in addition to Rivera? No offence ment to Mariano, but after all Hoffman is the all-time saves leader, though I do admit he's not the archetypal flame-throwing fastball pitcher you'd usually think of when hearing the word "closer" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.20.97 (talk) 08:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Hoffman doesn't have the extensive post season experience and credentials, and for most of his career pitched in a fairly weak division. He's an excellent pitcher, don't get me wrong, nasty changeup, but I don't think I've heard even the most ardent Yankee hater claim that Hoffman is a better reliever than Mariano.--65.184.186.72 (talk) 07:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Rivera is by far the most prominent of any of the current closers. Whether or not you think it's subjective or not, it's true - when people make the analogy of someone being a "closer" in another sport, Mariano Rivera is always the person being compared to. In any case, if you need a more objective criteria, I think it's more appropriate to go by the longest tenured closer, in which case, Rivera by far exceeds any other closer. Hoffman has the most saves, but his save total isn't the most relevant criteria to including a photo in this article. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Saying Rivera is the most prominent closer is subjective. Longest tenure with a single team doesn't make someone a more prominent closer. Hoffman has had a longer career than Rivera. Why is being with one team longer better than having a longer career? Beats me. Nobody can answer that questions. Because of that, the entire thing is subjective and WP:OR. Using the most career saves and most single-season saves leaders for photos in this article is an objective way to go. — X96lee15 (talk) 17:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Well-known closers

It's pretty clear per WP:OR that the list of "well-known" closers should be removed unless properly sourced. The source given (which is a list of fantasy baseball projections, not even a real article) says nothing about the people on the list being well-known. I don't want to get in an edit war, so I thought I'd solicit other opinions here. — X96lee15 (talk) 02:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

As of now, where does it say well-known? Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Trails blazed)} 02:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purplebackpackonthetrail (talk • contribs)

LOL, it doesn't since you changed it. Regardless, "well-known" or "current", it's the same problem. What criteria was used to generate that list of players? The same problem of OR still exists. — X96lee15 (talk) 02:50, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The criteria is simple: the top three-four closers according to the fantasy sites; plus Hoffman because he's save leader. Also, Lee, there's a precedent for such list on many other sports positions. They contain lists of people who play the position, usually without a source for a list. If you want to question them as well, we may need a bigger room Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 04:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Criteria selected by WP users is still WP:OR. If other articles do the same thing, then they should also be changed. — X96lee15 (talk) 04:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

You may want to bring up a discussion of the topic on Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball and also Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 06:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

What happen to half the article?

Let me be on record that I do not approve of Lee's interpretation of OR to extend to deleting half the WikiText in this article Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 04:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Everything I removed had been tagged as original research since May 2009. There was ten months where it could have been addressed. I'm all for adding it back, but it needs to be sourced. — X96lee15 (talk) 04:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I can't believe that an entire article can be written about the position of "closer" without a single mention of Mariano Rivera! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.208.220 (talk) 02:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction

"The concept of the closing pitcher, a player specifically designated to pitch no earlier than the eighth and generally not until the ninth inning, did not exist in the modern sense prior to the 1980s."

If this is so, then how can Joe Black and Jim Konstanty be listed as closers who won the Cy Young, since they won the Cy in the early 1950s? Kansan (talk) 00:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Organize the history

It looks like some info was added, and then the chronology resets as Tony La Russa subs Dennis Eckersley in save situations, mentioning a 2008 record, but then mentioning a 1989 term of fireman. Very confusing. MMetro (talk) 11:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Qualifying Smoltz

Can we leave a note by Smoltz inclusion of "Hall of Famers" to include that he spent almost his entire career as a starting pitcher as well? It would help educate people who may be coming to this article to learn more about the game and positions, although he did play closer for a few years and obtain saves, he's truly going to be remembered for his contributions as a SP. WalterWalrus3 (talk) 01:33, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Smoltz is not listed under Closer_(baseball)#Hall_of_Fame. There is an existing footnote a there that says "John Smoltz was a closer for four seasons, but is considered to have primarily been a starter."—Bagumba (talk) 09:17, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Strategy Section Needs improving

The strategy section opens with a case against the way closers are used. Generally, it would be better to first explain the conventional reasoning for how the pitchers are used in the game, talk about what people say about the approach and then introduce the idea that it might be an ineffective confirmation of a foregone conclusion. I don’t know enough about baseball to offer the main arguments for, I came to this page to learn about closers and all I got was a extensive argument against the, being important. Lot 49a^talk 22:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)