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Proposed merger with Christian Conventions

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Given that the two articles seem to be, essentially, about the same group, I am proposing them for merger. For the purposes of centralized discussion, please see Talk:Christian Conventions#Proposed merger. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 14:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with this. Seeing the confusion re Kangaroo Island (discussion below) it really makes sense to keep them together unless they really needed to be split due to Wikipedia's article lenth policy. Donama (talk) 02:01, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Merging the articles for the two sects might cause more confusion than clarity. After more than 80 years of separation, some of the more prominent doctrines and practices of the 2 groups appear to have diverged substantially. Combining the articles (and turning this article into a redirect to Two by Twos) would reinforce a misperception which conflates the 2 groups. As it stands, this article does have a hatnote with a link to the article on the larger group. I do believe that the hatnote might be more clearly reworded, however. • Astynax talk 10:07, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While I see your point, surely what they have in common -- especially being nameless churches -- is massively more significant than the differences that have emerged. To ram it home, we have people referring to Two by Two members in real life as "Cooneyites", which means the typical punter comes here to Cooneyites look up information, instead of Two by Twos which is a much more substantial article describing the REAL LIFE Two by Two members the same punter (or Reverend Goodes, in reference to Kangaroo Island) has observed. That means the general public cann't really see significant differences or a proper natural distinguisher (in absence of official names) would surely have evolved. Donama (talk) 03:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The most obvious differences between the 2 churches are organizational, with Cooney's followers firmly rejecting the hierarchy of workers, overseers, etc. which have grown up within the Two by Two sect. There are doctrinal differences between Two by Two-ites and Cooney's teachings, but most of those have yet to be much explored in published sources, at least beyond Cooney's rejection of the Living Witness doctrine—i.e., that salvation comes only though hearing their gospel preached in person by their preachers ("THE PRESENT DAY 2 BY 2 APOSTLES", as one of the Two by Two overseers recently put it in a newspaper advert). Hopefully, more published references will become available on Cooney's following. There are other books by Patricia Roberts which deal with the history of Cooney's band of outcasts, and distinctive mentions of them occasionally appear in the press and in other works. • Astynax talk 09:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kangaroo Island

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I just removed a recent addition to the list:

Kangaroo Island South Australia[ki 1]
  1. ^ SERMON PREACHED AT EVENSONG AT SAINT PETER’S CATHEDRAL [Adelaide] BY THE REVEREND CANON W J GOODES

I understand that it appears as if Kangaroo Island should be added to the list but the group on Kangaroo Island are actually part of the larger "Two by Twos" group, and the public confusion (e.g. on the part of Reverend Goodes) in still naming them 'Cooneyites' merely persists because of the refusal to use an official name for the church. The split between the "Two by Two" mainstream church and the Cooneyites is detailed right at the top of this article as well as in a hatnote on this article and also in the "Two by Twos" article. That's why I've removed it.

Note: Not that anecdotes count here on Wikipedia but I'm absolutely sure of this because much of my extended family lives on Kangaroo Island (a 3 hour drive and ferry trip away from the Adelaide of Reverend Goodes) and are part of the "Two by Two" mainstream church. Donama (talk) 01:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Kangaroo Island wasn't a recent addition as I noted in my Revision history of Cooneyites Comment, I'd previously placed it there in 2006!
18:58, 17 December 2011‎ Mifren (talk | contribs)‎ (12,946 bytes) (→History and development: surprised after all these years since 2006, to see Kangaroo Island removed, not actively included)
Revision as of 21:23, 8 August 2006 to be exact, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cooneyites&diff=68479566&oldid=48812842
I was surprised to see it missing after all these years without any mention made here in this Article Discussion page!? Could anyone indicate exactly when it was removed as I've waded late last night through http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cooneyites&action=history without easily seeing when.
I accept that it could well have been removed on the basis of Reference:
1. Fowler, Matthew --Mifren 21:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC) from Marc Warren, Kangaroo Island, South Australia pers comm not being considered valid or as Donama stated above, "public confusion" thus disambiguation is required however clearly there is a common perception on Kangaroo Island.[reply]
As online sources are often temporary, I've decided to quote here for posterity & discussion, the small paragraph from Adelaide Anglican St Peter's Cathedral Rev Canon W J Goodes' Evensong Sermon,
"When I lived on Kangaroo Island, there was quite a substantial group of Christians who bill-boarded their loyalty to the gospel by a different life-style: no TV, no drugs or alcohol, and their women wore no make-up and didn't have their hair cut. Everyone could tell who were these people who called themselves simply "Christians" but who everyone else referred to as Cooneyites."
Equally since that 2006 published pers comm above, http://www.google.com.au/search?rlz=1C1SKPL_enAU413&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cooneyites+marc+warren demonstrates that other websites now have also published apparently verbatim eg http://everything.explained.at/Cooneyites/
Clearly the distinctions between Cooneyite & even this Article's current introductory line states, "In some countries, the term Cooneyites refers to the Two by Twos." Clearly from both the Adelaide Anglican Rev Canon & the Kangaroo Islander outsider population uses the term Cooneyite, not "Two by Twos". A future visit to Mitre10 Kingscote, South Australia may help learn more as the owner-managers apparently belong to this group of people identifying as Christian.
I also note since 8 August 2006, that Reference:
2. Enniskillen, North Ireland Newspaper Reports
no longer exists online so I did a search to see that there are other sources available online elsewhere. Matthew 07:49, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
I take the point that "outsider population uses the term Cooneyite, not Two by Twos". In the discussion above there is a proposal to merge the two article which I think is worth, given one is just a branching away from the other. Would anyone else like to weigh in there? Donama (talk) 22:47, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies Donama that it's me again, not another with a supplementary POV. I lived on KI 2004-7 & had never heard of "Cooneyites" in my then 39years until I'd been on KI for a few months 2004 then when I started becoming a wikiEditor in 2006, I natural neighbourly had cause to look up the term & had never learned of that other term "Two by Twos". As you've indicated "The Cooneyites are a Protestant sect which split from the Two by Twos, originally called "the Tramps" or "the Go-Preachers" founded by William Irvine, often referred to today as "The Truth" or "Cooneyites"." Then perhaps it would in actual fact be worthwhile asking your extended family left there on KI as to what they themselves would like to see happen in terms of real respect, recognition, resourcing, self determination & empowerment as to exactly how they currently see themselves, "outsiders" see them as a group of Christians and "United Christian Conventions"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.11.242.100 (talk) 09:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some members of the church edited what is now the Two by Twos article a while back and were instrumental in obtaining consensus to rename from "Two by Two" to "Christian Conventions", a name occasionally used in some countries to obtain official status (e.g. for conscientious objection during the wars). Later down the track, a more professional set of general Wikipedia editors changed the consensus to rename it "Two by Twos". The lesson here was that people outside the church (most probably completely unaffiliated and who obviously make up the majority) felt that "Two by Twos" was the more universally recognised nickname for the church, especially as "Cooneyites" is the name for the Cooney breakaway. So I don't think there will be another name change. What I do think can be done is the hatnote at the top of this article be improved, which I'll do now. Donama (talk) 03:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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