Talk:Criminal Investigation Agency

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On 13 February 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Criminal Investigation Agency (Indonesia). The result of the discussion was not moved.

Requested move 13 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 11:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Criminal Investigation Agency → Criminal Investigation Agency (Indonesia) – Undo move; per WP:NCGAL, it is necessary to pre-disambiguate article title with common name since it is possible, there another agency with the same name in the future. Ckfasdf (talk) 22:58, 13 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 00:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:OVERPRECISION. We never "pre-disambiguate", as it serves no purpose. If and when another article with the title is ever written, and this article is not the primary topic, we can always move it at that time. Station1 (talk) 03:36, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

refer to WP:PRECISION, "Exceptions to the precision criterion may sometimes result from the application of some other naming criteria. Most of these exceptions are described in specific Wikipedia guidelines or by Wikipedia projects". And WP:NCGAL is one of those exception, as it is specific WP Guideline. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NCGAL requires the country's name as a qualifier only when necessary for disambiguation. Disambiguation is not required in this case because there's no other article currently on WP using the same title. Station1 (talk) 22:58, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NCGAL explicitly mentioned "When creating an article with a common title, be sure to disambiguate it properly" and "When creating a new article with a name that might refer to another existing entity for which an article is not yet written, take care to "pre-disambiguate" it".

And, I couldn't find your statement above on WP:NCGAL. Ckfasdf (talk) 23:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies. I did not read the guideline far enough or carefully enough. I now see where the confusion lies. WP:NCGAL is a relatively obscure guideline that few people read or edit. I now see the indented bullet wherein your second quote lies. In my opinion this conflicts with article title policy and does not reflect consensus. In fact, I believe there a fairly strong consensus that we do not "pre-disambiguate" article titles. After this RM closes, I will remove that indented paragraph from NCGAL if no one objects. I'll also note that even that paragraph says it applies only when the title might refer to "another existing entity". Is there another existing "Criminal Investigation Agency" anywhere? Station1 (talk) 04:33, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree that not many editors know about WP:NCGAL, but it's still listed as one of WP Guidelines. And, I don't think its conflicting with Wikipedia:Article titles policy. Wikipedia:Article titles on WP:PRECISION section explicitly state "Exceptions to the precision criterion may sometimes result from the application of some other naming criteria. Most of these exceptions are described in specific Wikipedia guidelines or by Wikipedia projects" and WP:NCGAL serve as exception to WP:PRECISION. I don't see anything that is conflicting there, instead it's actually aligned between policy and guidelines.

If there are many strong consensus to no "pre-disambiguate" article as you said, then they should propose to revise WP:NCGAL. Until then, WP:NCGAL will still be valid WP Guidelines.

Lastly, since we are talking about common name here... just that we don't know the existence of the other "Criminal Investigation Agency", it doesn't mean that other "Criminal Investigation Agency" do not exist. Ckfasdf (talk) 05:33, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your points, which are reasonable, but I still see no benefit to this move. I'll be interested to see others' opinions about NCGAL. Station1 (talk) 05:55, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't said something like there is no benefit in following guideline. Ckfasdf (talk) 22:08, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support - While the argument that adding the clarification of "(Indonesia)" being WP:OVERPRECISION is valid, "criminal investigation agency" as a improper noun could refer to effectively any law enforcement organization. Estar8806 (talk) 03:47, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Estar8806: WP:OVERPRECISION also said "Exceptions to the precision criterion may sometimes result from the application of some other naming criteria. Most of these exceptions are described in specific Wikipedia guidelines or by Wikipedia projects". And WP:NCGAL is one of those exception, as it is specific WP Guideline. Ckfasdf (talk) 04:02, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ckfasdf I'm not quite sure what you're trying to convince me of? I support your request. But yes, the WP:NCGAL argument is also valid. Estar8806 (talk) 04:05, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose. WP:NCGAL says When creating a 'new article' with a name that might refer to another existing entity for which an article is not yet written, take care to "pre-disambiguate" it (emph mine). This is not a "new article" but one from 2018 so it can wait to be moved until there's something disambiguate it from. But since there's at least one possible additional article with this name (Agencia de Investigación Criminal / Mexican Criminal Investigation Agency) (and a few others that are very unlikely to ever have articles) is why it's a weak oppose. Skynxnex (talk) 06:17, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Skynxnex: That article was initially named Criminal Investigation Agency (Indonesia), but new editor with possibly limited knowledge of WP:GUIDELINE and WP:NCGAL, perform WP:BOLD move this article to Criminal Investigation Agency. This proposal is just undo that move. Ckfasdf (talk) 05:58, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ckfasdf thank you for the reply. Somehow I had missed that it was moved to this name recently, apologies. I still think it is very unlikely another article with this title will be created in the foreseeable future so I'm not sure for the need for disambiguated currently, even with WP:NCGAL. Partly since the second part of that guideline is to pre-create a disambiguation page with redlinks of the likely future pages. I'm not sure if any of the potential ones are worthy of it under the current consensus AfD, say, is operating under for single blue link disambiguation pages (was there an existing one this page was moved over?). But I'll reponder a bit. Skynxnex (talk) 14:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.