Talk:Dreyse needle gun

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Military history: Technology / Weaponry / European / German

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Diagram of bullet and firing pin

Oh man do we ever need a diagram of the bullet and/or the central gun mechanism and needle. Very very different than anything I've heard of. How does the "broader end of the bullet" form a point? If it's broad, it can't be forming a point. A picture of the entire gun would be nice too, surely someone can take a (cc) picture in a museum and upload it. (Sorry, I clearly have no idea how to draw the bullet, nor do I live in Germany where one might find a Needle Gun on display.) Here's a link to the German page on this gun (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCndnadelgewehr) they don't currently have a diagram or a picture either. They do have some external links, but I don't know how to read German to tell which picture is of the right gun, nor ask in German for a (cc) release of the image, etc. CraigWyllie 03:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We allready have a cut away diagram of both the mechanism and bullets at www.preussenweb.de/armee/gewehr5.jpg - the second external link listed. Not as good as having an inline drawing, I'll admidt, but better than nothing. WegianWarrior 06:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heh heh - so I discovered when google-imaging for another early-breach loading gun and was presented with that diagram by google images as it had found it via answers.com version of wikipedia. Which goes to show - presentation is everything! I certainly hadn't looked at the external links.

I wonder how old that diagram is, whether it's out of copyright? MMmm, wouldn't want to use it directly anyways, it's not extremely clear or well labeled. I can clearly identify the percussion cap, and the "acorn shaped" projectile - however there seem to be two sections on either side of the percussion cap. I know the lower one must be filled with black powder because the article clearly says the firing pin goes through the powder to hit the primer. But what's in the section of space between the powder/primer and the bullet?

I guess I should try my hand at a diagram. CraigWyllie 12:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But what's in the section of space between the powder/primer and the bullet? - My guess is that it is the paper mache sabot, as mentioned in the text. To me, it's the only explanaton that makes sence. I've no idea how old the image is, probaly out of copyright judging by the typeface ('font') used, but no way to be sure. WegianWarrior 12:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Translation

Seems to me Zündnadelgewehr is best translated as "needle-firing gun" or "firing-needle gun." Sca (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but it's been "needle gun" in English for a couple of centuries now. When I break it down and translate it, I get something along the lines of "needle ignition gun"; using the "rimfire" and "centerfire" naming conventions, I suppose "needlefire" would be the ideal translation. scot (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I thought you were commenting on the article title, but then I looked and saw the translation. I think you're right, it should probably be changed. scot (talk) 17:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, zūnden is to ignite. Literally Zündnadelgewehr is "igniting-needle gun," but I think the traditional "needle gun" is fine. (For another example of zūnden, you will see on old air-cooled VW blocks the legend Zūndfolge 1-4-3-2, which means "firing order [of the cylinders] 1-4-3-2." Also, a spark plug is a Zündkerze — literally, "igniting candle.")

Now you know. Sca (talk) 18:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Needle gun" is ambiguous, as there have also been proposals/prototypes for guns that fire narrow "needles" through larger bore barrels by incorporating a sealing sabot in each cartridge. Elias (talk) 12:44, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bullet shape

The...bullet was shaped like an acorn, with the broader end forming a point. How can the broader end be a point? If it is a point, it ain't broad surely? SpinningSpark 00:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conchoidal Spring(?)

Could not find such spring specification. Cursory search returns this article and a couple of others with text that contains "conchoidal spring" in identical paragraphs -- a copy. The reference [1] to the gun schematics shows a helical (sometimes helicoidal)compression spring. Any contributions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.251.183.155 (talk) 18:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MILHIST initial assessment

Start class. Needs the additional of in-line citations to reach a higher rating Monstrelet (talk) 09:23, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring

Why on earth is this article blocked? What is wrong in calling this gun a German invention FFS? It used a very long firing pin to puncture a cartridge in order to discharge a round. What is controversial about that? It seems pretty obvious that the User:Dennis Bratland has issues and roped in an Admin to do the usual WP trick of taking sides against an registered user. Either way, why is this not considered a German invention? That's what I want to know. Can any one explain what I am missing as I don't get the controversy, or the need for a blocked page? 86.179.83.41 (talk) 18:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Burning direction

"Upon release of the trigger, the point of the needle pierces the rear of the cartridge, passes through the powder and hits the primer fixed to the base of the sabot. Thus the burn-front in the black powder charge passes from the front to the rear. This front-to-rear burn pattern minimizes the effect seen in rear-igniting cartridges where a portion of the powder at the front of the charge is forced down and out of the barrel to burn wastefully in the air as muzzle flash. It also ensures that the whole charge burns under the highest possible pressure, theoretically minimising unburnt residues. Consequently, a smaller charge can be used to obtain the same velocity as a rear-ignited charge of the same bullet calibre and weight. It also increases the handling security of the cartridge, since it is virtually impossible to set the primer off accidentally."

I have not found any mention of such considerations in other articles about gun ammunition. If it really mattered a lot, I would expect to find cartridges with an internal axial pin that propagates a hammer strike forward to a primer between the bullet and the main propellant. I am not sure the quoted explanation makes sense, though. Elias (talk) 12:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Maybe this issue disappears with metal-alloy cases whose crimp-hold on the bullet delays launching long enough that no significant amount of unignited powder will be blown out? Along with faster and more evenly and precisely grained powders and better bores etc.. And stronger primers, perhaps? Does the issue resurface with caseless ammunition, though? Elias (talk) 13:19, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]