Talk:Eddie Cicotte

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Pronunciation

The pronunciation shown in the article is incorrect. Here's the real scoop by writer and retired reporter, Dick Stodghill:

From the time he joined the Indians in 1908 through the season of 1920, Jack Graney faced Cicotte many times. He knew him well. He often told stories about Eddie Sigh-COT-ee. Some were humorous, others deadly serious, and all of them touched with sadness because Jack Graney had liked and admired Cicotte.

But in the movie version of Eight Men Out, Cicotte was called SEE-cot. Why? Because in the 1950s Al Cicotte pitched in the major leagues. Not wanting to be associated with his infamous relative, Al pronounced his name SEE-cot. That was the pronunciation picked up by the film makers.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is false and totally incorrect. I know because my name is Ron Cicotte. Eddie was my great uncle (my grandfather's brother). Al was my second cousin. The Cicotte name is well known in the Detroit area and not just because of Eddie. The reason Al pronounced his name See-cot is because that is how it has been pronounced since 1723 when Zacharias Cicotte came to Detroit (then Fort Ponchartrain) from Montreal. In Canada the name is Sicotte but is pronounced the same. See-Kot. I have done a comprehensive genealogy of my family going back to 1631 when Jean Baptiste Chiquot was born in Isle de Oleron, France. He came to Montreal in 1650 as part of a contingent of 1200 French soldiers sent to protect the fort from the Iroquois indians.

In France the name was spelled Chiquot. People have been mispronouncing our name for at least 300 years. Anyone interested in the Cicotte family genealogy can find nearly 2000 individual family members and the story of the first Cicotte in North America on our web site at http://jeanchiquot.cicotte.us . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rcicotte (talk • contribs) 23:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have any direct evidence of how Eddie Cicotte pronounced his name. Even if we believe a blog post, all it states is that Grany pronounced it Sigh-cot-ee. Grany could be wrong. -204.52.215.135 (talk) 20:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My father, James Alva Cicotte Sr. knew Eddie well. He died last week. He would have been 93 next week. When I told him a few months ago that Wikipedia had picked up Dick Stodghill's article about the pronunciation he was not amused. There are several Cicotte streets in Detroit named after our ancestors. No one I know would call them "Sigh-Kot-ee" street.

It is a French name, not Italian as Mr. Stodghill refers to it in the previously referenced article. The Sigh-Kot-ee pronunciation would only makes sense if you didn't know that the name is French. Dick Stodghill wrote a follow-up article on the subject after receiving an email from my brother George. I've added it as a reference.

Since we have no recordings of conversations with Eddie in those days no one could say with absolute certainty how he pronounced his name. I wish I had brought the subject up a few years ago when I was corresponding with his only then living direct decendent (his grand daughter Antoinette Fraser). Had I known it was an issue at the time I would have.

But I think that most people would defer to the family and the extensive genealogical research. Sometimes in older census data the name is spelled Cicott - without the 'e'. While I know there will always be some who will continue to insist that Eddie mis-pronounced his family name I hope that most will read the newly referenced article by Dick Stodghill and put the matter to rest. Let me just say in closing that I think it's very sad when people who obviously have no direct connection with the family feel that they are a greater authority on a subject as personal as how to pronounce our own name. Roncicotte (talk) 20:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The reference I added to Dick Stodghill's clarification has been removed but there is no explanation as to who removed it or why. My preference would be to remove the reference to Mr. Stodghill's article altogether. It has no bearing on the proper pronunciation of the Cicotte name. It only supports how some people may have mis-pronounced it. I can assure everyone that people have

I have submitted a request for Editor's assistance. If anyone has a good reason for why the reference should not be removed or at least replaced with the second clarifying article by Mr Stodghill http://stodg.blogspot.com/2009/05/hopefully-clearing-up-mystery.html please have the courtesy to post your arguments here. Roncicotte (talk) 16:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I learned Dick Stodghill, himself around 90, died a few months ago. As his knowledge died with him, I see no reason the family's view shouldn't prevail.

Would you want to amend the footnote to read how reporters of the era pronounced it?

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 18:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess my question is whether the footnote is even relevant to the proper pronunciation of the name. It's a fair topic for Dick Stodghill's blog but even he admitted in a subsequent article that it's incorrect. IMHO the way someone mis-pronounces a name shouldn't be the source of how to pronounce it even if that person mis-pronounces it in a public arena. ...maybe even especially if the person mis-pronounces it in a public arena. Roncicotte (talk) 21:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ron, feel free to change it. My guess when you tried to do it earlier, was someone thought it suspicious to see a sourced item deleted and reverted the edit. This page documents your reasons. I liked Dick Stodghill's blog and my sense of his writing is that he wouldn't want you to feel uncomfortable about it.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 04:04, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I have removed the reference. I wonder if there would be any objection to adding a reference to the family's genealogical web site where various spellings and accepted pronunciations of the name are discussed. Roncicotte (talk) 15:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're very welcome. Adding your family's site shouldn't be a problem at all!

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie himself was quoted giving the correct pronunciation: "I am Cicotte. But it is not Sy-cott. It is a French name. It is pronounced See-cott in Detroit ..." ("Cicotte Calls Life Sentence Too Rough," Charleston Gazette, Sept. 24, 1956.) Langrel (talk) 07:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

I could be wrong but it looks like 272 edits involving 134 editors since 2002 and no references or tags? I added two references but there needs to be more. I can understand a new article or a new editor but this article has been around awhile and the editors involved have multiple thousands of edits. Who knows maybe this one just got swept under the rug. I would hope that editors are now more astute at following Wikipedia Policies and guidelines concerning sources, references, and with the lack thereof, in using tags. Maybe there needs to be a new category called "stagnant start class articles"?. Otr500 (talk) 15:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]