Talk:Empire of Kitara

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This article is a collection of assertions[edit]

This article is a collection of assertions, none of which have foundation whatsoever.

The Bantu peoples of East Africa all have detailed oral histories of their nations going back several hundred years. These oral histories were written down in the 1890s. The oral histories all mention a people called the Bachwezi as having ruled the area long ago, and having "gone away". There is absolutely nothing else in the oral tradition about the Bachwezi. The statement about their having ruled a particular large area is pure speculation.

The claim that the Babito rulers who established the modern kingdoms were Luos from the Sudan is unsupported by any evidence. The traditional history states that the Babito rulers came from the North. The Babito rulers set up hierachial central governments with a cattle owning ruling class, features not present in any Luo society. In Ankole and Rwanda the members traditional ruling class have discernible physical features which suggest a Hamitic rather than Nilotic origin. (Physical anthropometric studies are detailed in "The Uganda Protectorate" by Johnston

The Bigo bya Mugenyi site has not been studied in detail; the claim that it was the capital of the empire is preposterous.

The lack of any detailed knowledge about the Bachwezi has puzzled scholars, considering the fact that oral histories were so detailed. One scholar, Dr M.B Nsimbi of Uganda, noted the existence of many names whose etymology is unknown. This is odd because most Luganda names have a known origin, such as a proverb. He speculated that they were remnants of a culture whose history was ruthlessly effaced, perhaps that of the Bachwezi.

The third reference cited by the article (Doyle) states that the claims about the Bachwezi are viewed with skepticism by historians.Kigongos (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree. There is enough in the oral tales of these people to warrant it to be taken seriously. If tales of Vikings and Normans can be taken seriously, so should be tales of Babito. Ezeu (talk) 23:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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this page is a mess[edit]

this is subpar and not wikipedia-standard writing or information whatsoever, can most of the recent edits be reverted? 73.217.107.48 (talk) 01:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@73.217.107.48 I definitely agree. KiwiNova (talk) 02:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's not really any version I can find going back several years that can be salvaged. Its a mess, in various different forms, for much of the page's history. I'd be more inclined to flag the page for deletion or basically start over, writing it only with reliable stories and emphasising that Kitara is a legendary state and not a fully documented historical one. Maswimelleu (talk) 19:43, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Type of kingdom[edit]

@Ahiise2 Hi, I was wondering when you have the time could you have a look at Comparison and get back to me with a classification for Kitara with a source? Genuinely no worries if you're too busy Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The classification can change over time Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Alexanderkowal I think that modern studies seems to suggest an aristocratic kingdom, contrary to the united empire of oral tradition. Some sources which support this include the following:
The Kitara complex: the historical tradition of western Uganda to the 16th century by Carole Buchanan:

The Isaza tradition communicates a systemization of saza county units. Certain clans, such as the Bagabu, enjoyed hegemony over other groups for periods of time, but there is no clear evidence it was a centralized monarchy. The Isaza tradition testifies to the emergence of the Kitara state under Bagabu leadership which culminated a process of assimilation of ethnically and culturally diverse groups in the Batembuzi period, (by c. 11th century). It probably does not recount a biography or a "reign" of an historical personality, but a period when territorial chiefships and sazas developed, a time when the Bagabu clan was preeminent, the "first among near-equals."

(note that Isaza belongs to the Bagabu clan)
Rituals of Nyoro Kingship by John Beattie:

Banyoro believe that their kingdom is the direct successor to the ancient empire of Kitara, and that the Mukama is the lineal descendant of its rulers. The origins of this 'empire', which is believed to have extended over a large area including most of present-day Uganda, are shrouded in mystery. But it may be supposed that it was a loose and shifting association of states paying sporadic tribute to a central kingdom, rather than any kind of single, centralized polity.

The Antecedents of the Interlacustrine Kingdoms by John Sutton:

There is in fact a reasonable case for interpreting each of the big earthwork sites — Kibengo, Munsa and Bigo — as a capital for those who controlled the grasslands of those districts. In this way Kitara can perhaps be still imagined not as a single united kingdom but as a vaguer system of political organization and economic exploitation of this region some six or seven centuries ago.

Bunyoro-Kitara Revisited by Godfrey Uzoigwe:

What the Banyoro apparently lost in the battlefield and from the politics of shifting alliances and alignments that characterized the history of the region for some 600 years they tried to keep alive through their historical traditions. These traditions inform us in masterful and amazing detail – in spite of several lacunae – how their ancestors founded the first state system in the lake region and later converted it into a large, albeit loosely-organized ‘empire,’ that extended beyond the region. That ‘empire’ they called Kitara Kya Nyamenga, an ‘empire’ won by the sword by larger-than-life individuals.

Ahiise2 (talk) 16:55, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ahiise2 thank you, I'll make sure to put that in, you do great work Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ahiise2 Hi, you might want to redirect Bachwezi dynasty to here as its deleted page is the first one that comes up when you Google Bachwezi Empire. I’m not entirely sure how these things work so might be being dumb Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Ahiise2 (talk) 20:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ahiise2 and Empire of kitara with a lowercase k Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Ahiise2 (talk) 20:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should this article mention the Urewe culture as a precursor? Idk how accurate that is. Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Alexanderkowal If there were no other prominent cultures in Uganda between the end of the Urewe culture and the start of the Empire of Kitara, then yes. Ahiise2 (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That was the only one from what I’ve seen (the territory maps onto Kitara quite well). Just edited the History of Uganda article, it’s incredible how badly African history is represented on this site Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Ahiise2 (talk) 16:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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