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The Fustanella IS Albanian in Origin[edit]

Fustanella (for spelling in various languages, see chart below) is a traditional skirt-like garment worn by albanian nations in the Balkans (Southeast Europe), similar to the kilt. In modern times, the fustanella is part of Balkan folk dresses. In Albania it is used now days like a traditional wearing and it was word by the Royal Gard in 1924-1939 meanwhile in Greece, a short version of the fustanella is worn by ceremonial military units like the Evzones.

Fustanella is an Albanian National Wearing and there are references for that. One reference is from Jean Pierre Edmond Jurien de La Gravière (19 November 1812 in Brest, Finistère – 5 March 1892) a French admiral and he cites : Albanian wearing become a life style and was in mode so much as the ottomans of high levels wore proudly the white fustanella of Albanians of South. Even greek themselves when the second son of Ali Pasha, named Veli Pasha that was ruling in that time Morea, adopted fustanella as a symbol of bravery and made it the elegant uniform of palikaris.

There are no references that fustanella was a greek national wearing. There are references that show fustanella is an albanian national wearing that is adopted latter in the 18th century by greeks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newalbin (talkcontribs) 14:29, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

"The fustanella was originally thought to have been a southern Albanian outfit of the Tosks and introduced in Greece during the Ottoman occupation that began after the 15th century." (then links to pro-Albanian sources)

First of all, there was no Albania in the 15th century. Albania was created by Austria in the early 20th century.

Second, to this very day "Southern Albania" is populated by majority Greek population. The Greeks still refer to southern Albania as Northern Epirus (it is occupied Greece; in fact, Albania and Greece are still officially at war and have been for decades).

Thirdly, the article first says that the Fustanella dates back to the Byzantine Empire and even to Ancient Rome and Greece. Please explain to me why then someone added the contradictory statement that all the sudden the Fustanella was an "Albanian" invention only introduced "to Greece" from the 15th century. The fact is that the modern Greek borders did not exist then (obviously) and "Greece" was indeed almost the entire southern Balkans and western and northern Asia Minor which was heavily populated by Greeks up until the 1920's (See: Greek Genocide).

The Fustanella is 100% Hellenic in origin. Just as the Albanians are now Hellenised so to were/are the Turks, Bulgarians, Serbians and indeed much of the world.

For Albanians to deny their Hellenization would be to deny their Byzantine flag (symbol), Orthodox heritage (now mostly Islam) and their very culture, folk dance and food. It's absurd! It would be like the English to deny their Germanic ethnicity and Germanic cultural heritage (food, attitudes, music, art, etc).

Much like the Slav-Macedonians, the Albanians actively attempt to appropriate Greek culture, and make it their own. Such is the way of the Balkans, where you have many peoples with little to no roots/history and nations created by far-away powers who knew nothing of the realities in the Balkans (Such as was the case with Austria and Albania). --Nikoz78 (talk) 19:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

For the first poing there do not exist any concept called "greek" or "greece" before the year 1821. There is no greek nation till 1821 when germans and King Otto created greek nation. So it is illiterate to speak for a "greek nation" before 1821. Albanian nation existed before medieval times. Remember here that the first appear of word Albania is in 1271 when is created for the first time Kingdom Albania. There is no record or original document of this time to prove the existence of Greece, greek nation or the concept "greek". Greek nation is created only in 1821 and before this date is illiterate to speak for "greek nation". Newalbin (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
For the second point in the region of Korca, Kolonja, Permet, Skrapar, Berat, Lushnje, Fieri that are albanian areas of south Albania there is not even one greek living. Noone albanian ethnic from those areas of Albania speaks greek language. Epir never spoke greek language. Greek language is used only after 18th century in Greece when germans convinced orthodox albanians of south Albania that they were greeks and not albanians.
For the third point again we need to know better what is greek and what is not greek. Before the year 1821 there are no greeks in Balkan because simply they did not exist. Greeks are created in 1821 by germans with ethnic albanian orthodoxes that lived on the regions where today is called Greece. In the so called wrongly period of Byzantine Empire there are no original documents of that time that can prove the existence of greeks. There have been no greeks in the so called Byzantine Empire. Word "albania" and "albanians" surely appear too many times in the document of that time meanwhile words like "greek" and "greece" do not appear at all. The fall of Byzantine empire is dated in 1453 meanwhile the ethimiology of creation of word "greek" and "greece" dates later than the year 1560.

There have not been "helens" in ancient times. Word "hellenes" is nothing more than ethimiologically deformed word "illyrians". First of all there is no link between word "greek" and word "hellenes" those are two different words have no connection between them. At the other hand word "hellenes" derives from the deformed word "hellas" that is the albanian word for "hyllas". All these words like "hyllas" "hellas" "helios" "ilios" "yll" "diell" are the same word that is used for the word "star" or "sun" and all those words ethimiologically are of albanian origin. And this shows that the ancient "hellenes" are nothing more than ancient illyrians. Word "illyrian" together with the word "yll" "ill" "hyllas" "hellas""helios" in the albanian language of today all of them are explained with the word "yll" meaning "star" and "ilirians" mean people that have come from stars.Newalbin (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Hellenisation is a false concept. It never existed in ancient times. The term Hellenistic was established by the German historian and member of the Grerman parliament Johann Gustav Droysen (1808-1884).Newalbin (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Ancient greek culture never existed. The term Ancient Greece is a false concept because word "greek" and "greece" are created 3 000 years latter than the period called wrongly Ancient Greece. The right word to be called that period is Ancient Illyricum.Newalbin (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


Do you still have queries about fustanella's?

Here is a heated argument's page on "men in skirts",
or more likely "who were the men who wore their skirts first".

Modern foustanella probably originated in what is now southern Albania, where a substantial Greek minority still lives.

Be full aware of Greek chauvunist written, when mention southern Albania and saying what is now southern Albania then mentioning the Greek minority who's existing are not clear before 1900s, the claim become that the kilt originates from the Greek minority in southern Albania and then was spread over to Greece. This is very unlogical and the line I have therefore erased and for the reason that this a claim by Theathane, inveted by him, it is a untestable and untrue theory, is not just false, it's misleading. His arguments (which is invented and false) do not represent any current views of credible scholars.

look here and scrol down the Cambridge university press regarding the origin of the kilt foustanella.

frosina have a good article on the kilt also and have literature reference, see. --Albanau 02:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Foustanella or Fustanella?[edit]

I've checked the spelling of the word in a number of dictionaries and online, and it appears that fustanella is by far the most common spelling in English (see for a comparison). I've changed the article name and spelling accordingly. -- ChrisO 10:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Albanian & Greek[edit]

Stop manipulation. Word "fustanella" is an albanian language word. It comes from the word "fustan" and word "fustan" is also an albanian word composed from two other albanian language word "fus" and "tan" meaning "to enter" and "all". Which means purely "to enter all body in it". Word "fustan" is an albanian language word that shows the real purpose of use of "fustan". Stop manipulations. Greeks did not exist before 1821. Greek nation is created in 1821 by germans and before the year 1821 all greeks were albanian orthodoxes that spoke pure albanian language. "greek" concept is a falsification of the history.Newalbin (talk) 20:52, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

In Greek, fousta means skirt, while foustanella means the kilt. In his last edit, Albanu seemed to say it was the other way around in Albanian. Is that true, Albanu? If so, we should add that to the Albanian etymology section at the top. So far, we have Albanian, Italian, and Greek versions of this name that are very similar. Are there any others? Maybe we should make a table of the different like they have at Count. --Jpbrenna 16:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm familiar with that term from Latin. Did they use the batons to beat the wool? The fustian article says the name is derived from a suburb of Cairo. And I had always thought that the Greek foustanella were made from strips of starched linen. Were/are they actually made from wool?
No idea. Just the etymology I stumbled across in my Λεξικό της Νέας Ελληνικής Γλώσσας by Γ. Μπαμπινιώτης.--Theathenae 16:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fustǎ (singular feminine noun) is the most common Romanian word for a woman's dress. The DEX says the Romanian word is from New Greek. There is also fustanelǎ (short white dress/skirt) in Romanian, also from New Greek. Very common words in those parts of Europe. James 007 17:07, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My source for the info added to article: American Heritage Dictionary, as well as Online Etymological Dictionary. The ultimate etymology, as you can see, is uncertain. James 007 17:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My Greek dictionary claims foustanella is the diminutive of foustani, "skirt" - and -ella is clearly a Latin or Italian diminutive. If fustanella itself (not just fustagno) is in fact not Albanian or Greek at all but Italian, perhaps the Italians themselves introduced the garment (or at least the fabric) to southern Albania? Just a thought.--Theathenae 17:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The part about the dimunitives is true, and I consider the second part very likely. I'm all in favor of the "Originated in ethnically mixed region of what is now Southern Albania, original wearers impossible to determine" option. We could add " probably derived from Italian" to that. --Jpbrenna 22:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Read the comments here, Jpbrenna. Being in favour of the "Originated in ethnically mixed region of what is now southern Albania, original wearers impossible to determine" option makes you either a "Greek chauvinist" (according to Albanau) or a "petty Greek nationalist" (according to Decius). Don't say I didn't warn you.--Theathenae 22:26, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and it also makes you "lame", even if you can walk perfectly well.--Theathenae 23:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nobody said you were lame, just the edit war. Speaking of lame, I just got done editing a Star Trek article in Latin. Time to get away from this computer and go for a jog. Αντίο! --Jpbrenna 00:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Apparently Albanau made a mistake, maybe just swapped the places of the words accidentally. The kilt is actually named: (një) fustanellë (undeterminate form) fustanella (determinate form of the noun in Albanian), while the dress is called fustan, ((një) fustan / fustani in both it's forms). Also looked up the Italian translation in the Garzanti Dictionary. Found out that it was fustanella too (no o), but the names for skirt or dress are very different, respectively gonna and abito. Jonosphere 22:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The national costume of Greeks - Albanian origin[edit]

The Greeks have adopted the national costume of the Tosks, and is not as Theathenae try to imply that the modern fustanela originates among the Greek minority in southern Albania. --Albanau 18:11, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who originated it, but the article should also carry the category:Albanian clothing. James 007 18:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I like the new edit: The modern fustanella originated in southern Albania, and I'm willing to accept in the article. --Albanau 18:32, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae have now gone crazy and wrote insteed: The modern fustanella originated in the Ottoman territories of what is now southern Albania. This not NPOV cause it was written by him to misslead readers! The land that is today Albania was controlled by the Ottoman Empire from 1385 until 1876. --Albanau 19:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Fustanella was always Hellenic in origin (like most Albanian/Turkish food and folk culture it was appropriated from Greek/Byzantine culture). Also, "the Greek minority in southern Albania," is false, as the Greeks are still the majority there right now in 2011. --Nikoz78 (talk) 20:37, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


It strikes me as particularly odd that a Kosovar Gheg like Albanau would be so insistent on the "Tosk" origins of a cultural artifact to which he has no connection as he is not even from Albania, let alone multiethnic southern Albania. Considering the prevailing Kosovar Albanian attitudes towards ethnic diversity, I can only think of Pan-Albanianism rearing its ugly head yet again.--Theathenae 18:36, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A Lame edit war[edit]

I direct your attentions to this article: Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever. James 007 19:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This seemed like a perfect candidate, so I added it. Check it out! --Jpbrenna 19:52, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nice one Jp. I also like that overview that you gave of the situation. ;) James 007 19:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey Albanau, doesn't User:Theathenae seem suspiciously like a Greek propagandist, though he/she claims to be an Aromanian (and maybe also an Arvanite)? For example, I'm pretty sure Aromanians should also have the words fusta and fustanella in some form, but he/she has been curiously silent regarding them... James 007 19:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's a rather petty remark, Latin Lover. I have both Aromanian and Arvanitic lineage, and I take equal pride in both. These groups are not self-contained universes of the Albanian and Rumanian national narratives within Greece. They have intermarried with the monolingual Greek-speakers and with each other for centuries, and have been fully integrated into every aspect of Greek life. Moreover, they have arguably contributed more than monolingual Greek-speakers to the creation of the modern Greek state. They didn't have Hellenism imposed on them; they actively and consciously pursued it. It therefore follows that the Arvanites are not an "Albanian folkgroup" as Albanau was taught in Kosovo i Metohija, any more than the Aromanians are a subset of the Rumanians. We have thrown in our lot with the fate of Hellenism, and if you don't like it, it matters little in the larger scheme of things. We will still be who we are.--Theathenae 20:07, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Interesting that you avoided my question about the Aromanian words. You are no Aromanian, I'm quite sure. You may have some on your tree, but that's not the same thing. James 007 20:13, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

With the level of Greek influence on Aromanian, it would be impossible to isolate the Greek loanwords of Latin origin from the specifically Aromanian words of Latin origin. We use both fousta and foustanella, but I cannot know if they developed in Aromanian independently of Greek. Highly unlikely and ultimately irrelevant, as everyone in Epirus wore them and used the same word for them. Dad would probably say the foustanella was Vlach or Arvanitovlach, but then he would, wouldn't he?--Theathenae 20:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But of course, I can't possibly be a real Aromanian if I'm not Bucharest-compliant and endorsed, can I?--Theathenae 21:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about Bucharest. I was talking about that Greek skirt that you're wearing. It looks like Albanau has realized how lame this edit war is. James 007 21:34, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your schools were closed down in 1948. The battle for our hearts and minds ended long ago in the only way it could. They won, you lost. We belong to the enemy now. Just get used to it.--Theathenae 22:08, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was born in Kosova 1986, five years later after my birth, 1991, me and my family moved to Sweden due to the widespread poverty and social and political instability in the region. I never attended in any school in Kosova, or any school that teached the Albanian language here in Sweden . At age of 14 I've went to an Albanian institution in one of the city I lived in before. There I've came in contact with L'Houngan and other's such as Ullmar Qvick (today the most respected swedish author on Albanian studies.) This two people had travelled alot in Albania during the time when it was under communism regime, they told me some very intresting stuff about Albania and the Albanian people. From there arouse inside of me a strong interest on Albania, since then I have become more serious in Albanian studies and Wikipedia have help me to improve myself dealing with neutrality. Unfortunately the english wikipedia have become the nationalist Bible and here is nothing to learn about neutrality anymore, people like you Theathenae are nationalist editors that are damaging the project. I've know your IP-adress is, look also here here]. In the swedish wikipedia your name is Arvantís. You are a Greek living in Sweden, i've know that, you have tried to edit swedish articles about the suliots, arvanítis and many others but the administrators in swedish wikipedia are so good in dealing with nationalist like you, they restored the text. Is that why you dealted the interwiki link on the article here. I've let the template NPOV on the article Arvanites and Arvantic since they are written from your point of view. When you misrepresent academic opinion we have every right to revert you. Above you mention Aromanian and compare them with Arvanites, you are of course the right of your point of view on the talk page but not on the article. here you have delated the line are a people of Albanian origin from central Albania that settled in various Greek lands during the Middle Ages and change it to are a people originating in central Albania that settled in various Greek lands during the Middle Ages. Arvanites means Arbanites which simply means Albanian in old Albanian language, Arber or Arban is basicly the same thing, in Albanian language often does turn 'e' and 'r' into 'a' and 'n', for example Zeri or Zani means voice. Another thing, in the article Arvanitc you even mentions the language as 'Indo-European language originating in the Balkan peninsula' rather than specifying that it's a varitey of the Albanian Tosk and that it's orginates from Albania, which should have sounded an alarm bell in others mind, like Decius if he have read the article. You cannot claim Theathenae that Arvanites are Greeks, a pure Arvanítis is a pure Albanian, they have no Greek origin they have a Albanian origin those who haves Greek origin are not pure Arvanitis but Greek-Arvanit. --Albanau 02:38, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The reason I make a distinction between the Arvanites and the Albanians is that the Arvanites themselves do not identify as Albanians, and in fact would consider the term highly offensive. Much like the 50 million Americans of German ancestry do not identify as Germans today. The Arvanites arrived in Greece well before the advent of your style of Albanian nationalism, so asking them to identify with your cause is rather futile. The only nation they have known in modern times has been the Greek nation. Indeed, rather than welcoming them as "brothers", the Arvanites of Attica display particularly xenophobic attitudes towards the throngs of illegal Albanian immigrants. And Arvanitic itself is barely 50% intelligible with Tosk, hardly enough for it to be classified as a mere dialect of it. It is completely unintelligible with Gheg. Finally, your mention of the word "pure" in relation to ethnicity is itself enough to exclude you from Wikipedia.--Theathenae 08:55, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Whole Point...[edit]

Of the lameness thing was to inject some humor and get everyone to step back, take a deep breath, have a laugh and possibly come back to the table more relaxed to hammer out a better article. Obviously, it didn't work ;) --Jpbrenna 20:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Keep reverting here fellas. I'm going to focus on getting United States Army Air Force moved to United States Army Air Forces, the technically correct name. I don't consider that a lame name debate, since there was only officially correct name, even though numerous colloquial ones were employed. But then again, no partcipant in a lame edit war ever considers himself an "unlawfully lame combatant," even when he is one. --Jpbrenna 20:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't joke about Iraq if I were you, Yankee Doodle ;)--Theathenae 20:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You forgot Poland (not to mention Romania), who also deployed troops there. Look, as long as the US & other troops are there, everyone can unite and focus on shooting at Yanks & assorted Crusaders instead of shooting at each other. It's called a "peacekeeping" mission. It's sort of like the ancient scapegoat of the Hebrews, onto which the people could unburden their sins (or in this case, the excess ammunition contained in their AK-47's). In fact, that's exactly why GW & Condie Rice sent me to this forum. Psst, over here! Everybody top fighting and focus on getting the American! Here I am, catch me if you can! <scampers away> --Jpbrenna 20:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I have to say guys, the earliest evidence of the Fustanella is not Southern Albania, but 5th century BC Slovenia, evidenced here. Another one was found in the outskirts of present day Durres. picture here. We dont find it in "Northern Epirus" until the 2-4th century AD[[1]][[2]] Considering the fact that Fustanella is a latin term, this very much supports the idea that it originated in Northern Illyria and spread southward seeing that Romanization played a big role in northern Illyria. According to Encyclopedia 1911 states; The picturesque national costume, which is derived from the Albanian Tosks Or a University study which states; "Albanian warriors introduced the foustanella" into the Peloponnese region.

Also has anyone read Lord Byrons memoirs which states;

The Albanians, in their dresses,(the most magnificent in the world, consisting of a long white kilt', gold-worked cloak, crimson velvet gold-laced jacket and waistcoat, silver-mounted pistols and daggers,)

or his poem

"Childe Harold's Pilgrimage" (1812)


The wild Albanian kirtled to his knee, With shawl-girt head and ornamented gun, And gold-embroidered garments, fair to see:

Also, note that the fustanella has also been used by Arberesh of Southern Italy. Whom have not been in Albania for over 5 centuries. Tpilkati

More attention should be giving to Albanian Fustanella in this article. That way Wikipedia can gain the neutrality. I added a line at the top depicting the importance that the Fustanella has among the population of Albania. Fieraku

The fact that "Fustanella" is a Latin term in origin does not PROVE the Fustanella origins. The Greeks still call White Sauce "Béchamel" sauce (which is a Turkish word) but is completely Byzantine Greek in origin. There are countless examples of this. --Nikoz78 (talk) 20:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

fustanella in albania[edit]

""""It strikes me as particularly odd that a Kosovar Gheg like Albanau would be so insistent on the "Tosk" origins of a cultural artifact to which he has no connection""""

Actually the fustanella was used in North Albania too, and even by Montenegrin Albanians. There is countless of old pictures to prove it. Just Ask.

""""They have intermarried with the monolingual Greek-speakers and with each other for centuries""""

Not as long as you think according to Encyclopedia Britannica 1911[3].

""The Christian Albanians have long lived on good terms with the Greeks while retaining their own customs and language and rarely intermarrying with their neighbors. They played a brilliant part during the War of Independence, and furnished the Greekswith many of their most distinguished leaders.""

""Like the Albanians, the pastoral Vlachs seldom intermarry with the Greeks; they occasionally take Greek wives, but never give their daughters to Greeks""

""""They didn't have Hellenism imposed on them""""

Mostly true I think, but a little note:


""Owing to their deficient intellectual culture they are regarded with disdain by the Greeks, who employ the term j3M~os to denote not only a shepherd but an ignorant rustic.""


""The process of their Hellenization... has been somewhat slow; most of the men can now speak Greek, but Albanian is still the language of the household. The Albanians, who are mainly occupied with agriculture, are less quick-witted, less versatile, and less addicted to politics than the Greeks, who regard them as intellectually their inferiors. A vigorous and manly race, they furnish the best soldiers in the Greek army, and also make excellent sailors.""

""""The reason I make a distinction between the Arvanites and the Albanians is that the Arvanites themselves do not identify as Albanians, and in fact would consider the term highly offensive.""""

You can make that very clear by adding a few lines and explaining the current situation. But to change the truth of where they came from does not serve that purpose.

""""The Arvanites arrived in Greece well before the advent of your style of Albanian nationalism, so asking them to identify with your cause is rather futile.""""

Where exactly in the articles of Wiki is anyone asking them to identify with this famous "albanian cause"??? They are just saying a simple matter of fact about their origins. Its not like those propaganda magazines the greek church is spreadin in North Epirus to fuel greek nationalism among the greeks there.[4]

Here is an old picture of Otto in fustanella, the turkish inscription talks about the dress's albanian influence.[5] Here is an 1881 drawing of Woodwille: Albanians of Shkodra (North Albania)in fustanella, celebrating Ramazan.[6]

Proud men in skirts[edit]

On the last revert in the beginning of the article: To the statement "Most people would recognize foustanella as Greek Army Ceremonial dress", Kastrioti indicated "not exactly true. When foreign experts refer to the foustanella, they say "the Albanian/Greek kilt" b/c apparently both countries wore it since ancient times". I believe that Wikipedia's role is first to inform and then to set the records straight. Since I (and apparently Kastrioti by replying "not exactly true") believe that most people do recognize foustanella as Greek Army Ceremonial dress (since Athens has had more tourists than Albania and they actually still wear it), I will make a last change and not bother anymore. As I noted in the beginning, this discussion on men in skirts is too much. Please note that I have made other, more important changes, (like replacing the word octopodes at the end of the article -a nice joke-) so I urge anybody who does not like some changes to modify them individually instead of reverting. --FocalPoint 17:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Population in the Ottoman Balkan Vilayet Yanya[edit]

A book, Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913, by author Edward J. Erickson, regarding the population Population in the Ottoman Balkan Vilayets, 1908. source.

Greeks were not the only majority of the provinc Yanya, the other majority were Albanians and Vlachs. --Albanau 16:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The census indicates otherwise. --Telex 16:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the census you cited there is absolutely no mention of Albanians, even though they no doubt would exist since the Ottoman vilayet Yanya was part of Ottoman Albania. The country was divided administratively into four vilayets, which constituted defacto autonomous units. / Albania in 1912 was inhabited by various tribes, north and south of the Shkumbin River, which were divided into four vilayets. / Albania Identities: Myth And History, page 36, page 91. There is however a mention of Muslim population, which were one of the majority populations in the province Yanya. The conclusion here is that the census, at at least when it applies to the Albanians, is divded according to religion, not by ethnos.Albanians are included in the category Muslim population, leaving Greek Orthodox and Catholic Albanians in the categorys Greeks and Others. I advise others to be careful with the interpretation of old Balkan census. I think the last sentence which is disputed and incorrect should be removed if not corrected. --Albanau 18:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You should respect their right to self-identification. If they called themselves Greeks, they are Greeks - period. --Telex 18:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Edit - Change "kilt-like" to "skirt-like[edit]

The design and construction of the fustanella is more common to a skirt (single wrap) than a kilt, which is is wrapped more than once, and can be wrapped over the shoulders, as well.

Addition of proper fustanella image[edit]

I added to the beginning an image of the standard fustanella, and moved the modified/modern version to another part of the page. The article is about fustanella not a modified modern version, but I still did not remove it as sign of good faith --Sarandioti (talk) 23:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I suggest to keep only the 'macedonian' and the romanian one, no Albanian, no Greek, do u agree? Alexikoua (talk) 11:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Both albanian AND greek must remain. --Sarandioti (talk) 11:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Whats the problem in that? Both albanian and greek pictures remain. Its a totally equal situation. --Sarandioti (talk) 11:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Calusari picture[edit]

The Calusari dress is not by default a fustanellam. It can be called a dress that resmebles partially the fustanella, but not an extent that justifies the name "fustanella". For example the ethnic macedonians dress is also a fustanella-like dress, but fits the name because it mostly resembles a fustanella unlike the calusari dress.--Sarandioti (talk) 10:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

About this picture any comment? Or any better picture suggestion of Vlachs wearing fustanella?--Sarandioti (talk) 11:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

so nobody cares if the calusari picture is correct? ok, I'll try to find a better picture. --Sarandioti (talk) 15:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


Why dont we put all the images and any others we can find in the bottom of the article in a gallery so there will be no conflict?Megistias (talk) 12:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Seems 6-times blocked User Sara. [[7]] disagreed on that in the past [[8]], in order to promote his nationalistic agenda, adding Albanian pics from the lead claiming they are more 'beautiful. Agree with the 'gallery' section.Alexikoua (talk) 14:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Also agree with having a gallery section. --Athenean (talk) 02:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. The pictures are fine as they are. Alexikoua when you talk about somebody else promoting a nationalistic agenda, it's like the pope critcizing the patriarch of Constantinople for being too religious.--I Pakapshem (talk) 18:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

No, I suggest to remove the Cham pic and place a picture of Northern Epirote.Alexikoua (talk) 20:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

You want us to add pictures of tosk and lab Albanians wearing fustanellas? We can and will surely do that as well. Thanks for reminding us.--I Pakapshem (talk) 22:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Just found this very beautiful pic of 3 men wearing Fustanella: [[9]] (p. 48). Suppose none has problem to add it directly in the lead.Alexikoua (talk) 21:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The picture of the Cham of 1938 is unverified too. No source, no author, no book, no nothing. So, he could be anything right? I suggest he is from Burundi, could be there some fustanellas in fashion (using the same 'arguments'). In case we have not one evidence, it's a typically 'speedy deletion' case.Alexikoua (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

You are totally ridiculous and your assertion is ascenine. Your hatred towards the fact that the fustanella is undeniably Albanian has made you say insane things. The picture is of my great grandfather.--I Pakapshem (talk) 22:06, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead pic[edit]

I would personally be in favour of having one representative picture in the lead, in addition to the others in the gallery. Please make suggestions about which would be most suitable here. If you guys don't reach a consensus, I offer to act as a referee and make a neutral call after a while, if that's okay with you. In doing so, I can assure you I will ignore all Albanians promoting Albanian pics and all Greeks promoting Greek pics, so just don't bother making boring arguments to push those. Fut.Perf. 10:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I suggest to add a picutre of a Souliote on lead [[10]]. Also, I firmly disagree with all this picture bombardment that started some months before. That's why we have commons.Alexikoua (talk) 10:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

@Aleks: Are you racist? That striked me as you being racist because you removed the picture of a black boy wearing kilt. Stupidus Maximus (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Suppose you don't realize what you really say. I suggest you have to be less agressive [[11]][[12]]. Also read Wikipedia:Five pillars.Alexikoua (talk) 11:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

A picture of a Souliote in the lead might work. I for one have nothing against it. I think it is probably the only thing that both Greek and Albanian users could agree on. Athenean (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
It seems that this article suffers from a childish picture-game with removals and addition according nationalist POVs of specific users. A good example is the recent removal of 3 (all 3 non-Albanians) Fustanella pictures [[13]]. This removals were not discussed here and are still unexplained since show us specific types of Fustanela (especially the black Fustanella).Alexikoua (talk) 19:35, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

After almost 2 months, it's time to place the specific picture on lead.Alexikoua (talk) 22:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

banned users editing[edit]

Now that the Stupidus/Guildenrich saga is finally over, I have reverted the article to its version before his edits. Not that there is that much to rv: A non-English reference and yet another image. There is a gallery with 12 already, we really don't need one more. Our readers get the picture at this point. Athenean (talk) 05:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

source falsification[edit]

I knew something was up with this edit [14] the minute I saw it. Now that I have had time to check the source, it is quite clearly a case of source falsification. The paper by James Verinis states quite clearly: Thought originally to have been a southern Albanian outfit worn by men of the Tosk ethnicity and introduced into more Greek territories during the Ottoman occupation of previous centuries, the "clean petticoat" of the foustanéla ensemble was a term of reproach used by brigands well before laografia(laographía, folklore) and disuse made it the national costume of Greece and consequently made light of variations based on region, time period, class or ethnicity. Rain-proofing the white linen panels of the foustanéla skirt with fat, as was practical, quickly turned any working brigand’s garments an off-white or gray. Brigands wearing white had been logically looked at with suspicion (Koliopoulos 1987:23). It it not even clear if he means the foustanella itself or merely a part of it, but whatever the case, the edit by Balkanian's word is not anywhere near supported by the source. I have a copy of the paper and can e-mail to anyone who is interested. Athenean (talk) 00:03, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Added Faik Konica source[edit]

Added Faik Konica source (he has been a very good user himself of the Fustanella) and separated the two main versions (Albanian and Greek). As a matter of fact they differ in two things: Number of pleats (the Albanian version has way fewer than the Greek) and length (the Albanian version is longer than the Greek). Hope no problems there, drop me a line in my talk page if you disagree with any of my edits. --Sulmues Let's talk 14:36, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

No science working, more romantic=[edit]

An Vlach/Aromun isent an Macedonian or a Greek, he is a Vlach, and an Arvanit or ethnic Cham how the Souliots arent Greeks, thej are Arvanits or Chams. You make it very easy when u call all Vlach-Minoritys as "Greeks in Macedonia" or "macedonians", thats not true. In the Fact, only Vlachs in Rumania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greec and Albania, and only albanians dressed traditionelly the Fustanella.-- (talk) 19:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

That's clearly explained in the article for the Albanian version of the traditional fustanella. The Greek version is different and much smaller. Do you have any sources to include the Vlachs as also the ones to wear the traditional version? --Sulmues (talk) 19:27, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Its havent "many fusnatella" version, its have only one version, thats from the Tosks and Aromuns/Vlachs, the Fustanella in Greec is sience the greek revolution, and isent a tradiotionally dress from greek peoples, those "greeks" are Vlachs and Albanians (Chams and Arvanit) Minoritys, in macedonia, rumania, bulgaria is the same, thej are Vlachs/Aromuns, not Macedonian or Greeks, that a falsifikation of the history.
  • "The national costume of the Tosk is the kilt (fustanella) of white lines which has been adopted in the greek army" [15]
  • "Since the war of the Independence, the Albanian costume has become the national dress of continental Greese" [16]
  • "Fustanella,this is the dress which has also been adopted in mainland greece" - "the fustanella, the full white skirt which originated in south albanias" [17]
  • "Even the "national" Greek dress-the fustanella-is in fact the dress of one of the great albanian tribe, the Tosk"[18] —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I don't have a problem updating the history of the Greek fustanella with these sources and also mention it in the lede.--Sulmues (talk) 12:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia isent a Theory-finder[edit]

The Fustanella isent from the roman Tunic, thats a Theory, but not a fact! Pleace wrothe with more facts, then Theorys!

Albanian-illyrian Fustanelly from maribor[edit]

I miss here the Illyrian Fustanella from Maribor:

Third Picture isent a Greek[edit]

Its a Suliots, pleace look the other Pictures, that a typical Suliot, look the dress and hair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

A History of Greece: The Greek revolution, pt. 1, A.D. 1821-1827 - George Finlay[edit]

Reading page 39 (, everyone can realize how wrong is to consider the origin of fustanella as "greek" or related to "greeks". —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:28, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The Fustanella is the main folk dress all over Republic of Macedonia[edit]

And this is not mentioned anywhere in the article? Why? No lame history/ethnicity flames, please.

The fustanella as a folk dress is present in each region of Republic of Macedonia, sometimes along other forms, sometimes by itself. It is used all the time in folklore festivals and dance groups.

Even if you look at the geography you can see that Republic of Macedonia is wedged between Albania and Greece, and has mostly the same folk dresses, customs, cuisine, etc. like the other two countries. Don't let political propaganda blind you. (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)


IP user changed the meaning of the text [19] and the IP have altered their wording and meaning --Vinie007 10:47, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The Oxford dictionary doesn't say anything about Byzantine Greeks, but I'll see how to make this more in line with the dictionary while expanding the section.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:22, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

It'd be nice if we had more moder straightforward sources that dealt with fustanella.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:34, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Good job overall, however, the claim that the fustanella was "frequently worn in ancient Illyria", sourced to an obscure, difficult-to-verify Albanian language source is highly dubious and will be removed along with its "source". Athenean (talk) 21:36, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

That's a 2004 English issue of Studia Albanica, an academic publication of the Unviersity of Tirana so I don't see how that's dubious. What do you mean by this? Page 148. mentions that it was worn by Illyrians. Maybe you should revert yourself because Paulicelli does mention the Illyrians.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on the Studia Albanica source? Specifically, what evidence is there that the "fustanella was worn by Illyrians"? Surviving clothing fragments? Mention in ancient sources? Did they call it "fustanella", too? Do you see now why I'm skeptical? Athenean (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, among others it says that There is also archeological evidence from an item found in Maribor. Similar evidence is also used by Gjergji(very well-known Balkans ethnologist), while Paulicelli/Skafidas consider it worn by the Illyrians. It's just another theory like chiton, so I've been trying add them all or at least the somewhat plausible ones(excluding the Moghul Empire one).--22:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kushtrim123 (talkcontribs)

An item found in Maribor (Slovenia, which may or may not have been Illyrian territory) shows that some sort of kilt-like garment may have been worn by the ancient tribes in the area. That is very, very different from saying that "the fustanella was worn by the Illyrians". That is a fairly strong claim, and what you have provided from the source is not sufficient to back it up. Athenean (talk) 22:22, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
[20] Skafidas also considers it a possibility.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 22:32, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Gjergji has listed some of the total findings[21].--Kushtrim123 (talk) 22:38, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Yes, I saw that, but there's something very odd about the whole passage. First, there were no "Illyrians" after the 6-7th century, the term died out around that time (it disappears from all source from the time). Second, the notion that Albanians descend from 13th century Dalmatians is a little far fetched don't you think? Dalmatia is rather far from Toskeri, isn't it? If the Dalmatians wore the fustanella, wouldn't it be found amongst Ghegs rather than Tosks? So when I read about the 13th century Illyrian Dalmatians who are the ancestors of the Albanians wearing the fustanella (and when that same source says the fustanella evolved among 15th century Tosks), I become very skeptical. To me the claim that the Illyrians wore the fustanella is an exceptional claim. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, not sources that mix up "13th century Dalmatians" with Tosk Albanians. If you could find a high-quality source that specializes on Illyrians and specifically mentions the fustanella I would be more open to accepting this. Athenean (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Regarding Gjergji, I'm sorry but all I see is a snippet with very little information. It is also my impression that the area around Maribor was Celtic rather than Illyrian territory. Athenean (talk) 22:46, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
That would be Trieste and that 13th century thing is probably a typo. Gjergji goes into detail but I'll expand that later on the article with the quote, but bear in mind that these are all just theories.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 22:57, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Nope, pretty sure the area around Maribor (NE Slovenia) was inhabited by the Celtic tribe of the Varciani [22]. 13th century a typo? I doubt that. Rather, the source is focused on the Fustanella in a Greek context and probably wasn't careful about their ancient scholarship. In general it is a source on fashion rather than ancient history, that's why its claims about the ancient origins of the fustanella and such need to be treated with caution. Athenean (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Please check book which kushtrim already added! --Vinie007 11:12, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd love to, but I can't. Anyway, I hope you can understand why I would be skeptical of an "Illyrian" origin for something that appears for the first time in the late Middle Ages (1400s, long after the Illyrians disappeared from history). If the Fustanella were indeed "Illyrian", something like it would be found among the Ghegs, Montenegrins, Bosnians, etc...Yet, nothing remotely resembling it is found among them. Rather, the Fustanella appears to be an exclusively Tosk costume, and as we all know the Tosks inhabit an area that in antiquity was either inhabited by Greek Epirote tribes (Chaonians, Molossians, etc...) or Illyrians that were Hellenized from an early date (Bylliones). 17:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Thats not true, it's not find at the bosnian, montenegrin etc countries because the fustanella excisted before the slavic migration into balkan. The greeks adopted it later at the independence strugel (check greek documentary). --Vinie007 05:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
So those Slavs invaded, saw the fustanella of the Illyrians, decided it was unmanly, and decided to chuck it in the trash? Come on now. If what you are saying were true, there would be some remnant of those bygone fustanella days, either clothing fragments, mentions in medieval sources, something. But there is nothing. Also, how come the Ghegs don't wear it? All we know for sure is the fustanella is a Tosk costume that appears in the late middle ages. The rest is WP:OR. Athenean (talk) 05:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
In northern Albania it was worn in the Shkodër area ([23][24][25]), the royal guard of Montenegro also used to wear fustanellas ([26]) and Montenegro's Albanian clans ([27]) and in Dalmatia some small areas like Susak ([28]) preserved it. As soon as Gjergji is made available we should use it to expand on the Illyrian theory.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:30, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Fustanella didn't simply diffuse north to those areas, just like it diffused south to Greece. According to your line of reasoning, it is just as possible the Fustanella is an ancient Greek garment, since it is also worn in southern Greece. As far as I know, reliable sources that specialize on the Illyrians (e.g. Wilkes) make no mention of the "fustanella" or anything like it). This is not surprising, since there do not exist either archeological remnants nor mention in any ancient sources (and the Illyrians themselves did not possess writing). The word itself derives from Italian. I'd be real curious to see what evidence Gjergji cites, but I doubt it stands up to scrutiny. Athenean (talk) 20:08, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
You can see Albanian soldiers under Skanderbeg wearing a dress-like costume in this image ([29]). Most of Skanderberg's men came from the Dibra region where Byzantine rule was tenuous. Also, how could the Malesors, one of the most isolated people in Europe, have adopted it from the Greeks? According to this work ([30]), the fustanella was worn by Dalmatians around the thirteenth century, around the same time that the Albanians began forming their own states and Byzantine rule had disappeared from these areas. You can see a dress looking similar to the fustanella worn by the Ragusans ([31][32]) and the second image even has the jatagan placed in his hip strap similar to Albanian warriors ([33]). The Bosnian region was heavily slavinized as can be seen by the regional dress so you can't expect to see too much fustanellas there. Anyway, this is OR and I also want to see what Gjergji says.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:12, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
108 accidentally changed and added some content that the sources don't really say like the stuff about scholars believing that Albanians created the fustanella(Verinis and others don't say that) or that they introduced it during the 15th century in Greece(none of them say that too). I'll change the word bygone to past, but maybe we should reword the whole sentence.Kushtrim123 (talk) 20:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
In Greece it was diffused because of specific reasons like the Venetian colonists etc.. The French Ethnographic Society stretches the area of use up to Novi Pazar[34].--Kushtrim123 (talk) 20:47, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Another snippet. Don't see any mention of "Novi Pazar" though. Anyway, if it were "Dalmatian" and worn by the "Illyrians" of the Maribor area (who were actually Celts, but let's pretend), it would be found in present-day Dalmatia (i.e. Croatia) and Slovenia. Yet, nothing. And enough with the straw-clutching and SYNTHing by combining unrelated snippets. Athenean (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Full: D'après les nombreux témoignages de l'époque la fustanelle était utilisée au nord de l'Albanie, à partir de Shkodra en allant vers le nord-est, embrassant le Kosovo et allant jusqu'à Novipazar et encore plus au sud dans les régions. Isn't Susak that Gaius mentioned in Dalmatia?--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:01, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Except that the Susak "fustanella" is actually a women's costume [35]! Athenean (talk) 21:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Where's fustanella mentioned? The Susak fustanella Gaius mentioned has to do with the kamazot and even if it was worn by women too, what difference would that make? The fustanellas Evans noticed were in fact worn by women.-Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:42, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
That would be because the locals on Susak do not call it "fustanella". If "fustenalla" were an "Illyrian" word (though it is actually Italian, but let's pretend), they would call it that or something similar, wouldn't they? What difference would it make if it was worn by women? All the difference in the world. The fustanella is an exclusively male garment. Since skirt-like garments are worn by women everywhere, the fact that a skirt-like garment worn by the women of Susak proves absolutely nothing as far as that garment being an "Illyrian" "fustanella". Traditional women's costumes in, say, Ireland also feature skirts. Does that mean they too are derived from the "Illyrian fustanella"? Also don't forget, those islands were heavily colonized and frequented by ancient Greeks, in contrast to the interior (e.g. Bosnia). Athenean (talk) 21:58, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Were Dibra and Malësia heavily colonized by the Greeks too?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:12, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems that it was, especially the coastal region north of Lissus was heavily colonized by various Greek states GreekCitiesMapIllyriaAdriatic.png.Alexikoua (talk) 18:58, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Malesia is in the interior as is Dibra ([36][37]). Here is some images of a Dibran wearing the fustanella ([38]second from left) Did Greeks have colonies in Mat too? King Zog is famous for wearing it and he's from Mat ([39][40]). Judge the reliability yourself but this says([41]): Although the kilt was once worn by men throughout Albania, today it is seen only on special occasions in southern Albania, especially in the Gjirokaster area, and in the Albanian regions of Montenegro, Kosova, Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece. Either way, this seems to match the French study provided by Kushtrim. And it's interesting that Bosnians from Sandžak, an interior region, wear it as well.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) Clutching at one straw after another. First it was "the women of this Croatian island wear something that sort of resembles a fustanella, therefore this proves that it was an Illyrian 'invention'". Now it's old photos. How exactly do these old photos "prove" that the Fustanella was "Illyrian"? You can come up with 100 photos, it doesn't mean a thing. They also wear kilts and such in Scotland and Ireland. Are those "Illyrian" too? I'm sure I could come up with some photos of Scottish Highlanders wearing kilts. No, the only thing that will do is a high quality, non-partisan source that either focuses on Illyrian archeology or the history of the fustanella itself and takes a look at its origins in an in-depth, scholarly manner. Athenean (talk) 02:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I got Gjergji's book and found some more sources about the Illyrian theory. I'll also start a section about Macedonia and reword some minor parts according to the sources.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:19, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
What is "National Association for Soviet and East European Studies 1973"? It is at present completely unverifiable. Also, I object to Gjergji on the grounds that it is also unverifiable and also potentially nationalist/POV. Athenean (talk) 21:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Both gbooks links are on the sources and you can verify them by searching for part of the quotes or the whole point. Gjergji is very well-known and reliable ethnologist. You can check who's been citing her on gbooks and the comments about her like Andromaqi Gjergji, a very well-known and well-respected ethnologist.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:49, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
No, they are both impossible to verify. You haven't answered my question about the Soviet source. What kind of source is it, who is the author, publisher, etc...I also asked you a while ago to cite what evidence Gjergji presents. Does she give concrete evidence or does she just flatly state that the fustanella is Illyrian without presenting any evidence? Also, Ljubljana and Maribor are located in what was Celtic, not Illyrian territory. If that is the evidence that Gjergji cites for an Illyrian origin, it calls into question her scholarship and reliability as a source. Athenean (talk) 21:59, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
It's something like the modern CEEOL or the Congress of Library publications of the Soviets. Ljubljana was the territory of the Iapyges and since Gjergji is considered by her fellow scholars reliable etc. you're not in a position to make such arguments about her. Not to mention that you're making too many accusations bordering defamation.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 22:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
This tells me nothing. Very little information, and completely impossible to verify. Author, publisher, volume number, page number please. I am also skeptical of soviet sources from 40 years ago. As for the "too many accusations bordering defamation", calling a source's reliability into question is not defamation. Don't try to intimidate me, I don't scare. It is currently unknown whether the Iapyges were Illyrian or otherwise. All we know is that they were Indo-European speaking, but that's about it. Lastly, your style, tone and diction sounds strangely familiar, especially the "too many". Athenean (talk) 22:19, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
What do you mean? The links were on the bottom of the page, but you keep saying that you can't verify them even with the quotes.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 22:53, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
What do I mean? I've asked you three times for the bibliographical info of the Soviet source, and you are pretending not to hear. Author, publisher, volume, page number. When I click on the link, nothing happens. Regarding Gjergji, I can't preview her book on google books. But since you claim to have her book, perhaps you can enlighten me as to what evidence she gives (which again I've asked you several times for). If all she gives are those statuettes from Maribor and Lubljana, then that is a non-starter, because those are not in Illyrian territory. Athenean (talk) 23:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
What are you talking about in your summary Athenean? These reverts are really not justifiable since both the quote and the links of both sources(without even going to mention that you called an ethnologist like Gjergji very obscure) are on the

article.--Vinie007 05:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Do you even know what verifiability means? The Soviet source is completely unverifiable. When I click on the link, nothing happens. As for Gjergji, I have doubts about how reliable she is. Athenean (talk) 05:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
If you guys have doubts on a source go to WP:RSN and stop whining. Aigest (talk) 07:52, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Excellent timing, I was about to post here myself. I knew there was something fishy about the Gjergji reference, so I asked for an opinion on WP:RSN. The verdict from WP:RSN is in [42]: Gjergji, as a Hoxha era publication, should not be used for references to the Illyrians. I expect everyone to abide by this. Athenean (talk) 07:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't call a 30min debate (actually it was not a debate but just one opinion) a perfect judgement. Wait for the others. Also as I see from that debate the only argument was that it was published under some 40 years ago and only translated. AFAIK there are other parameters for WP:RS. Also I want to point out @Athenean that you should inform the other contributors on such moves. They have the right to know and should also participate in that RSN topic. Wait for the others opinion before moving further. Aigest (talk) 08:23, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
@Vinnie: Can you please give the precise quote for verification? It would be more constructive to prove what you claim instead of instant reverting.Alexikoua (talk) 09:45, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
The RSN opinion is crystal clear: Gjergji, along with any Hoxha-era sources, should not be used to reference claims of Illyrian continuity. From my experience of RSNs, I don't expect any other third party users to comment. I posted the RSN over 12 hours ago, I think that is sufficient. I won't tolerate any disruption this time. Please be aware that I am prepared to go all the way up the dispute resolution process with this. Athenean (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but 1 opinion is hardly binding. On the other hand how reliable are those ancient Greek origin snippets? I see one Greek museum snippet and a tertiary source that sounds very unscholarly(The young shepherd).--Kushtrim123 (talk) 19:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Kushtrim, even Hoxhas sources are better than of the sheperd --Vinie007 20:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Don't wikilawyer. One opinion is quite sufficient, especially if it's crystal clear like this one. No Hoxha-era sources for "Illyrian continuity". As for the Greek origin snippets, I will look into that. Athenean (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Lilla Margaret Fox is a reliable source, as is the Smithsonian. Anything else I can help you with today? Athenean (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
@Kushtrim: if you mean the Benaki & Smithsonian edition, feel free to take it to wp:rsn, but I don't feel you will be lucky there. On the other hand Gjergi needs to be verified first in order to discuss then. Also childish arguments like this aren't really constructive.Alexikoua (talk) 21:16, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Now that more people with arguments got involved the matter can be truly resolved.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 20:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Indian fustanella[edit]

Indian fustanella parade — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity of fustan[edit]

How did the Greeks introduce Fustanella to Albanians when the word FUSTAN has an ALBANIAN meaning only. Check your facts wikipedia: FUSTAN - DRESS (in Albanian language) here:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 10:37, 14 November 2012


The paragraph talks about (or infers that)kilts were originally made from cotton. This is not correct on any level and I have removed the word 'kilt'. Kiltpin (talk) 19:54, 9 March 2013 (UTC)