Talk:Gun control/Archive 18

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International debate?

Copied here from unfinished discussion of March 20-21

I removed [1]"and others in the international debate on gun control" while we reconsider that statement and those sources. I have read them a couple times now and what they say - that is to say how what they say is used in this article - is hinky. Lightbreather (talk) 14:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Sources that explicitly say the argument is made internationally, is insufficient to say the argument is made internationally? Gaijin42 (talk) 17:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I'm saying. Considering how contentious Nazi material is in any article, the dirth of high-quality sources for Nazi gun control is a problem. As I've said before, it ought to have its own article. Beyond that, to suggest that the argument is as significant internationally as it is among its fringe American adherents? The sources do not support it.

Here is what I re-wrote - except including the "and others in the international debate" material (in italics) and excluding the inline citations (those for "and others" follows text snippet):

Gun rights advocates such as Congressman John Dingell, NRA leaders Charlton Heston and Wayne LaPierre, litigator and author Stephen Halbrook, and JFPO leader Aaron Zelman, and others in the international debate have said that Nazi Party policies and laws, which disarmed "unreliable" persons, especially Jews, while relaxing firearms restrictions for "ordinary" German citizens, and which later confiscated arms in countries it occupied, were an enabling factor in the Holocaust that prevented its victims from implementing an effective resistance.

The sources for the "and others" material are these:

• "Chapman, Simon (2013). Over our dead bodies: Port Arthur and Australia's fight for gun control. Sydney, Australia: Sydney University Press. ISBN 9781743320310." and
• "Brown, R. Blake (2012). Arming and disarming: a history of gun control in Canada. Toronto, Canada: University of Toronto Press. ISBN 9781442646391."

In a barely one-page section titled "Hitler tried to disarm the Germans," Simon (Australian) wrote: "Internationally, the gun lobby is fond of comparing gun control agenda with that of Hitler in pre-World War II Germany." He gives a one-sentence quote by "Queensland's Ian McNiven," and a two-sentence quote (a what-if question and answer) by an unnamed editor of Guns Australia. There are no citations for the source of either quote. That is to say, he attributes the quotes to those persons, but doesn't cite where he got the quotes.

McNiven sounds like Australia's own Wayne LaPierre,[2] so we could probably find some material by/about him re: Nazi gun control, though how good the quality?

Brown (Canadian) wrote: "As had occurred in the 1970s, organizations representing firearms owners made analogies between modern arms control and the policies of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia." This appears to be from Chapter 6, "Flexing the Liberal State's Muscles: The Montreal Massacre and the 1995 Firearms Act, 1980-2006," but no organization or person is named, and his source(s) is/are hard to verify (from the URL we give anyway). Lightbreather (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources do not require internal citations for us to double verify, particularly for something innocuous as it was being used for. We are not stating that the argument is as influential or as notable outside the US, but it is a verifiable fact that it was made outside the US, as these pro-control reliable sources clearly verify. The ADL citation is in the section already, and the "throw a scare" line is from the Aronsen article in the previous sentence. It is not necessary to re-cite sources for every sentence that they support. I am reverting these changes as they removed valuable information. Please slow down your edits and get feedback on them before making the changes. This is already a contentious enough section, and making many sequential edits makes it difficult to deal with them on an individual basis. As to putting this content into a WP:FRINGE ghetto, Im quite happy to have a larger article on the topic, but it should not be removed from this one in this WP:SUMMARY form. This is a subjective political argument, the application of WP:FRINGE is mistaken, but even if it were a scientific fact, its notability would still require some level of coverage. For example global warming denialism is covered in about this same depth as this is, in the main global warming article. Global_Warming#Discussion_by_the_public_and_in_popular_media Gaijin42 (talk) 03:51, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to call it a night, but I'll leave this question: To what were you referring when you wrote, "Reliable sources do not require internal citations for us to double verify, particularly for something innocuous as it was being used for"? As well as, how these edits improved the article? [3] Lightbreather (talk) 04:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Above, you complained that Chapman and Brown do not provide their own citations for their sources. WP:V and WP:RS are not recursive. Saying that "people have made this argument" is not an exceptional claim that requires any exceptional sourcing. Gaijin42 (talk) 04:26, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

"Internationally, the gun lobby is fond of comparing gun control agenda with that of Hitler [...] [Discussion of multiple Australians making the argument]". That source alone is sufficient to say the argument extends beyond the US. I agree that the argument is less notable outside the US, and has gained less traction - but our agreement as to that point is worthless WP:OR without a source makign that comparison - but we do have very clear neutral sources explicitly documenting its use outside the US, and clearly it was notable enough to respond to. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Backing up just a little, you wrote, "Reliable sources do not require internal citations for us to double verify, particularly for something innocuous as it was being used for." I don't think any part of this discussion is innocuous. And that the argument is international is an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim that requires multiple, high-quality sources. Lightbreather (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

1. Calling this exceptional is ridiculous. If a political argument magically restricted itself to arbitrary geographical boundaries - that would be exceptional. The reverse is almost the default.
2. We do have multiple sources.
3. And no, nowhere in WP:V or WP:RS do we have requirements to go check reliable sources own sources.

Gaijin42 (talk) 21:50, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

"Ridiculous" is an awfully strong word, so could you please clarify what "this" is that you say is innocuous/unexceptional? Also, we have two sources, and not particularly strong ones for the claim that the debate is international. And, we may not be required to check a source's sources, but we are talking about a controversial statement, that there's an international debate re Nazi gun control. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion and wp:undue apply here. Lightbreather (talk) 22:03, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The book abour Canada presented as evidence that "the argument extends beyond the US." makes only one reference to Hitler in a sentence where it says some [unnamed people] brought up Hitler and Stalin in the debate. It does not refer to any of Hitler's legislation or how it related to gun control. It certainly does not establish notability. There are lots of things covered extensively in the book that do not belong in this article, for example the debate over removing the right of Irish Catholic canal workers to have firearms in the 19th century. TFD (talk) 03:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I think that gaijin has shown very well that "and others in the international debate on gun control" is more than appropriate, and there is certainly no consensus to remove the material, please replace it. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 19:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

A 'debate' would involve more than one group of participants - where is the evidence that anyone outside the US has taken this facile analogy seriously enough to bother responding to it with more than the derision and contempt documented in the Chapman book? Of course, if we are going to include the Australian 'debate', we will have some nice quotes - like the Sydney Morning Herald writers dismissive suggestion that the "more valid comparison is between the cunning propaganda practised by the shooters and the Nazis". Or are only pro-gun Nazi analogies to be permitted in this article? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:24, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I have restored the content, because it shouldn't have been removed without agreement. However, I agree with Andy on this one. Two unrelated books written outside the US do not make an "international debate". I think the paragraph looks better without that bit than with it. Scolaire (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Scolaire Is there any doubt that the argument has been made by those outside the US, and that those outside the US have responded to the argument? If your objection is the wording "international debate" is there some other wording that would be more acceptable that would still indicate that the argument is not exclusive to those in the US? (There are other sources previously in the various archives, showing use of the argument in at least Brazil and UK I believe as well) Gaijin42 (talk) 19:57, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

There is no evidence of any 'international debate' beyond a fringe minority of pro-gun lobbyists making the argument, and being dismissed with derision - it is a gross violation of WP:NPOV policy to make out that such arguments have had any serious traction outside the US. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:13, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, as has already been pointed out, the supposed 'Brazil' source actually referred not to a local debate, but to attempts by the NRA or their confederates to interfere in the domestic politics of Brazil. The UK source referred to nothing more than another fringe gun-lobby group raising the argument, and being treated with contempt - the mainstream UK gun lobby wanted nothing to do with such nonsense. I suggest that you actually read what sources say before you cite them again. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

IMO we really need to start with straightforward coverage of gun control in Nazi Germany. What happened when. And since most of debate happens in the US, such is inherently significant on a world scale coverage of the topic, at least enough for inclusion. The fact that the Nazi meme is a factor in other countries only adds to this. To do otherwise would be like saying that you can't discuss giraffes in an article about the world's animals because they are Africa-centric. North8000 (talk) 21:31, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

We already discuss Nazi gun control in the appropriate place - in our article on Gun legislation in Germany, where it belongs. And no, what happens in the US isn't 'world scale' - and I find it frankly astonishing that anyone could seriously make such an assertion on a Wikipedia talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Andy, you misstated what I said into a straw man /caricature version of it in a way that deprecates me. I'm not going to engage with you on those comments. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:13, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

When governments do thinks someone does not like, someone may call them names, such as Nazis or Communists. These epithets come up in all debates. For example Archbishop Garnsworthy compared the Ontario premier to Adolph Hitler, when the government extended Catholic School funding. "This is how Hitler changed education in Germany...." (See Lewis Garnsworthy#Separate school funding.) Does that mean we add a section on education in Germany to the debate over religious school funding? TFD (talk) 23:12, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

TFD, I respect you a great deal, even though we are often on opposite sides of issues. I consider you to be immensely intelligent, and you stick to the top few levels of the "pyramid" in your approach. Even with the good folks, I really don't want to re-enter a cycle of just trading talking points. But if you would ever like to enter into an organized, logical dissection of this and debate of the points (where I try to convince you and you try to convince me) I think that that would be a useful. North8000 (talk) 23:49, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The handful of sources have been discussed at length here and on other talk pages. This is NOT an international debate. Period. What is in this article is already more than there should be. Everyone should remember at all times re this: the last time there was an RfC on it, it was 20 for to 30 AGAINST Mea culpa: 19 for to 22 against having ANY of it here. I call on Gaijin and North to let this go. Lightbreather (talk) 00:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I am going to let the international bit go, because atm there are bigger fish to fry, but its plain stupid that we have a reliable pro-control source explicitly saying the argument is made internationally, and the response is essentially "lalala no its not because I said so. period.". Gaijin42 (talk) 00:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Gaijin. Well, for the first part anyway. ;-) Lightbreather (talk) 02:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Since we've now established that there is no evidence of any significant international debate on the 'Nazi' issue (and no, a source telling us that the gun lobby likes to make comparisons isn't evidence of a meaningful debate - it is evidence that the gun control lobby likes to make comparisons...), can anyone explain why it deserves to be in the article at all? This is supposed to be an international overview of firearms regulation issues, not a one-sided recap of the US gun control debate - issues significance to one country alone should be dealt with in the relevant article, not here, per WP:WEIGHT. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

There are those pesky goalposts. Watch em move. We have not established there is no international debate, we just established that it wasn't worth fighting over the word international. In any case, please identify the policy that says "worldwide view means exclude the US". in a decently long article, a single paragraph, that has almost 3/4 of it dedicated to the other side of the argument, is a one-sided presentation? pfft. You can do better. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:54, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Andy has moved no goalposts. IF there ever was a "consensus" to include Nazi gun control material in this article, consider WP:CONLIMITED. But leaving that aside, the fact remains that consensus can change. So I'm going to say this again: the last time there was an RfC on it, it was 20 for to 30 AGAINST Mea culpa: 19 for to 22 against having ANY of it here. Lightbreather (talk) 02:32, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

19–22 would have been a No consensus if it had been a head-count alone, so the material would have stayed. Scolaire (talk) 08:36, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Um, can you cite policy for that? You seem to be confusing RfCs with AfDs. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that there was a difference between RfCs with AfDs regarding what would count as consensus if it were a head-count alone. Given that both of them say it's not based on a head-count alone, it seems odd that they would specify different numbers. Can you show me where they do that? Scolaire (talk) 08:49, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I am well aware that RfCs aren't closed by head count alone - it is your assertion that an RfC closed as 'no consensus' would entail the material being retained that I am asking you to cite policy for. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Not policy-based. If there had not been a consensus to remove it people could have removed it anyway. Can we stop this silliness now? Scolaire (talk) 09:19, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you can - by not inventing policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:24, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Honestly! Have you nothing better to do with your day? Scolaire (talk) 09:45, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Andy, the policy Scolaire is referring to is WP:NOCONSENSUS. It says, "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." 1. It says "commonly," not always. 2. It also says, "However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." Is this article about living people? It's not a BLP, but there are still living Holocaust survivors, and what is more contentious than comparing a subject to Nazism? 3. Then there is the fact that an ArbCom was started on this RfC before it came to a substantive close. It was closed procedurally by an Admin without analysis of consensus, pending word from the arbitrators. Lightbreather (talk) 16:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

BLP does not apply to large groups of people WP:BLPGROUP nor does it apply to statements that aren't actually about that person/group, nor does it apply to things people might find offensive, but specific allegations that could cause libel, defemation, or other legal issues. WP:NOTCENSORED Gaijin42 (talk) 16:52, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone know? Are there any policies, guidelines, or essays, on the use of Nazi comparisons in articles? Also, I have to leave for the better part of the day, so I'll be absent from discussions here. Lightbreather (talk) 17:15, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

The vote was at 19-for to 22-against when it went to ArbCom. Also, I don't need a lecture on how a simple vote does not decide a question. (I've lost count of how many times I've been the third man in a vote and, regardless of my arguments, I was told 2-to-1 is a consensus.) Anyway, that's where the vote stood when it went to ArbCom, on a controversial topic. Some of us, myself included (and you, too, if I remember rightly), asked to have the material removed while the ArbCom was open. I wanted to delete it from the start (I'll wager others included), but didn't, thinking there would be a decision within a couple of weeks, so why rock the boat. Yet every day that "material" (I want to call it crap) sits there is a day that those who support it claim silence is consensus. (I've lost count of how many times I've been told "It's been there two years," or "It's been there two months," or "It's been there two weeks" - which should mean about as much as a simple vote.)

IN FACT, I removed it a couple days ago,[4] with the edit summary, "Bold edit to divert this material and discussions to Nazi gun control article." That is, I replaced it with a description of the controversy and a link to a page that can be developed fully to describe the controversy - and not just summarize something that a U.S., pro-gun fringe want very badly to make a part of a reasonable, global discussion. But guess what? The removed material was restored,[5] with the edit summary, "Really?" - by the editor who started the ArbCom. Big surprise. Lightbreather (talk) 15:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

It's an international debate, period. No amount of wikilawyering will change that.--Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 20:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

No more "meme," please

I have seen a disturbing trend in this discussion of referring to this whole, complicated, controversial debate as a "meme." When the average reader hears the word, they think of farcical memes like that old gem All your base are belong to us or the more recent Grumpy Cat. I think it is poor form to reduce this issue to that word. "Argument," "debate," "subject," or "topic" are all more serious, unambiguous terms for a serious topic. Lightbreather (talk) 15:09, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree. I don't want to tell people how to word their comments, but the word "meme" really minimizes the importance of the topics at hand. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 20:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

This article stinks

Don't know a better way to say it. It should be scrapped and re-written. Lightbreather (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

It does seem to be a mess, and very US centric. And it's weird how oddly selective the airing of NRA talking points is in this article. Shouldn't this article either have all major NRA arguments supported by fringe theories put forward by gun control groups trying to manipulate holocaust guilt by misrepresenting themselves as representing holocaust survivors or none?TeeTylerToe (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

This is not in any way constructive. Point out sentences or other items that you specifically see as problematic, and discuss it. General whining and complaining doesn't do anyone any good. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 18:38, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Go back and read the Talk page edit history starting about 6 months back, you might be impressed even less. Yes, we (and I don't mean the "royal we", myself included) have made a genuine mess of this article. We had good intentions, but then got stuck on the damn totalitarianism/Nazi/gun control topic and its all went to hell from there.

This topic should be no different that the articles on "racism" or "homosexuality" where the topic is talked about rather than discussed or debated in the article. So now what? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

{{deadlocked}} I just found this cute little template. Wow, all the months that have gone by and we've missed the opportunity to use it.... Sigh... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:00, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Plans

I was briefly involved in this article and talk page last year, and have not been involved since then, and I have no plans to edit this gun control article ever again. But, if this article and talk page were to become less toxic, and if the current ArbCom proceeding ends with me still editing Wikipedia, then I would probably support a rather simple solution to this mess. To wit: leave the pertinent material as it is in Gun politics in the United States, and just replace the pertinent material in the gun control article with something like this:

“ In the United States, one of the many reasons why gun owners defend their right of private gun ownership is as a check against tyranny. That argument has a long history in the context of gun politics in the United States, the argument has not been entirely limited to the United States, and an especially controversial feature of that argument in modern times has been the suggestion that more private gun ownership in Europe might have inhibited the tyranny of the Nazis. ”

I mention this here since it's been hidden at the ArbCom workshop talk page. I won't have anything further to say here for the time being, because it seems as toxic as ever.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't have any particular plans to stop editing here. Maybe someday, when I feel these kinds of articles are complete and NPOV. But I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, or any other kind of thing could happen, so... I will respond by saying what I said yesterday on the Gun politics in this U.S. talk page. What you've written above, is an example of what Harcourt summarized succinctly when he wrote:

“ In much of the literature and argument, the references to Hitler and Nazi gun laws are often dressed in Second Amendment rhetoric. The message, in essence, is that the founders specifically crafted the Second Amendment to protect the Republic from dictators - and that Adolf Hitler proved the founders right. ”

"Harcourt, Bernard E. (2004). "On Gun Registration, the NRA, Adolf Hitler, and Nazi Gun Laws: Exploding the Gun Culture Wars (A Call to Historians)". Fordham Law Review. 73 (2): 657."

--Lightbreather (talk) 21:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Nazis did not practice gun control

In a tortured literal sense of the term, one can say the nazis practiced "gun control". Similarly, one can say that disarming children, violent criminals, and prisoners is "gun control." Such a usage of the term "gun control", while technically correct in some sense, is completely out of accord with the academic and colloquial meaning of the word. It should be excluded from the article because WP:Context matters.

Adding this Nazi stuff is as ridiculous and tone-deaf as adding a section about white Afrikaaner immigrants to America to the African American article. Though they are technically 'African American', referring to them as such is misleading because that term refers to black people in the United States. Similarly, "gun control" in America refers to broad social policies aimed at reducing rates of gun ownership and gun violence. The anti-gun control folks should focus their energy citing studies that say gun control policies don't achieve their goals, or alternatively cite legal scholars that say gun control violates Constitutional rights. Describing the Holocaust as entailing "gun control" is nothing more than a smear. It's literally true in a tone-deaf technical sense, but it's false and misleading in a substantive sense. Steeletrap (talk) 06:47, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The dictionary.com definition of "gun control" is similar to the others: "government regulation of the sale and ownership of firearms." You are trying to fashion your own different definition that excludes types with bad purposes or indefensibly bad forms of it. North8000 (talk) 12:35, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

That definition is completely consistent with the one I'm proposing. The people who write the dictionary expect readers to exercise common sense. The fact is, RS do not endorse your definition, and ridicule the fringe ideological sources that do. Steeletrap (talk) 15:53, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what you are talking about I just said that the definition is straight from dictionary.com. North8000 (talk) 16:42, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The words of the dictionary entry can be construed to accommodate your view of "gun control", but they need not be. RS do not interpret gun control the way you do. No encyclopedia entries on the Holocaust mention gun control, and no encyclopedia entries on gun control mention the Holocaust. This is a smear campaign pushed by fringe ideological sources; it has no following in academic circles. Steeletrap (talk) 16:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The plain language of the dictionary is quite straightforward. And just how do you know that this is part of a "smear campaign" or conspiracy pushed by "fringe" elements. Is this some sort of WP:TRUTH that you have discovered? Could it not possibly be that others have a legitimate and thoughtful differences of opinion? Capitalismojo (talk) 18:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I hope we can all agree that "thoughtful" is not the same as "legitimate" in the context of WP content policy. Everything on this page is thoughtful, I believe. SPECIFICO talk 18:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that it takes creativity to recognize that Nazi era gun control was "government regulation of the sale and ownership of firearms". Indeed, it takes creativity to assert that it wasn't "government regulation of the sale and ownership of firearms". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:55, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Consider the Collins Dictionary definition of African American: "an American of African descent." By the 'plain language' of the definition, every American is an African American, since biology tells us we're all ultimately of African descent. Does that mean we should add Mitt Romney and Britney Spears to the African American wiki page? The dictionary provides definitions with the expectation that readers will exercise common sense, be sensitive to contextual considerations and will not be intentionally obtuse. Steeletrap (talk) 22:11, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I hear you, Steeletrap. Comparing gun control to what the Nazis did is like comparing taxation without representation with the Holocaust. And dragging any of it into the modern gun-control debate is propagandizing. Lightbreather (talk) 22:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Right. It's like citing the Nazis' economic discrimination against the Jews as an example of "economic regulation" or "tax hikes." Using a word accurately involves more than comporting with its literal dictionary meaning. The context in which one uses a word also matters, as does public and academic perception. It's erroneous and absurd to call the Nazi Holocaust an example of gun control. The people pushing this stuff misunderstand basic linguistics, and they're using that misunderstanding to push their fringe POV. Steeletrap (talk) 22:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The clear problem is that some people have viewed the Nazi-era firearms restrictions as being a type or form of "gun control." "Gun Control" as a political issue is recent as a phrase, and so one would not expect to find it used as a phrase before it became a cause celebre in the past few decades. That it was not used in Germany as a phrase in English is hardly a surprise. (Google translate suggest "Waffenkontrolle" as a German word for it). It is also clear, moreover, that the Nazi-era laws did increase restrictions on firearms ownership - the issue of the Holocaust is irrelevant to that simple fact. The second and separate issue is whether the stated opinion of some groups that the Holocaust was facilitated in some manner by such restrictions on gun ownership is clearly a matter of discussion and debate in the real world, and it is not Wikipedia which is "dragging" the issues together, but it is the responsibility of Wikipedia to duly note that such discussions and opinions exist -- by eliding them, we do no favour to readers seeking an encyclopedic exposition of the debate. Thus such works as Verbrechen erinnern: die Auseinandersetzung mit Holocaust und Völkermord (Volkhard Knigge, Norbert Frei, Anett Schweitzer; C.H.Beck, 2002 - 450 pages) become of more than passing interest (even if not in English) quoting Gingrich on the debate over "gun control" in a German book on the "Holocaust and genocide." Clearly with German writers noting the issue, it becomes of international interest. Balancing views that the Nazi gun restrictions were not aimed at causing the Holocaust are found and usable, but we can not actually tell readers that no one has tried, as a matter of opinion, to make the connection would ill-serve readers. We are better off presenting the position, and noting its opponents, than simply denying its existence. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:34, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I've stated my suggestion before - including the policies and guidelines that support it - but here it is again:

A small, but vocal and mostly U.S. group of gun-rights advocates believe in a historical revisionism hypothesis that Nazi gun control, and gun laws in other authoritarian regimes, contributed significantly to past genocides. This hypothesis is not supported by mainstream scholarship.

--Lightbreather (talk) 00:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

"It is also clear, moreover, that the Nazi-era laws did increase restrictions on firearms ownership"? No, it isn't. What is however clear is that the Nazis reduced restrictions on most German citizens owning firearms - while restricting the right (as was and still is normal practice in most countries) of non-citizens to own firearms. That this restriction affected German Jews, who the Nazis had already been systematically removing other rights of citizenship from is true - but there is no evidence whatsoever that this was done for any specific purpose beyond the general removal of rights and systematic harassment of Jews being engaged in at the time. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

"It is also clear, moreover, that the Nazi-era laws did increase restrictions on firearms ownership - the issue of the Holocaust is irrelevant to that simple fact."

False. "Counterintuitively for a dictatorship, the Nazis liberalized possession and distribution of firearms for most German citizens. While permits were still needed to buy handguns, none were required for rifles."[6]

"Thus such works as Verbrechen erinnern: die Auseinandersetzung mit Holocaust und Völkermord (Volkhard Knigge, Norbert Frei, Anett Schweitzer; C.H.Beck, 2002 - 450 pages) become of more than passing interest (even if not in English) quoting Gingrich on the debate over "gun control" in a German book on the "Holocaust and genocide." Clearly with German writers noting the issue, it becomes of international interest."

This is a complete misrepresentation of the source, Arad, Gulie Ne'eman (2002). "II. Berichte zur Geschichte der Erinnerung : USA". In Knigge, V.; Norbert, F.; Schweitzer, A. (eds.). Verbrechen erinnern : die Auseinandersetzung mit Holocaust und Völkermord. pp. 199–219. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help),

1. Gulie Ne'eman Arad, the author quoting Gingrich, is not German.
2. The source does not discuss "the debate over gun control" (in fact the word "Waffenkontrolle" is used exactly once).
3. The appropriate footnote, if my understanding of German notations and abbreviations is correct, appears to cite Peter Novich who cites the Gingrich quote to a 1995 article in the New Republic, Newt Scoot, which leads us to Newt's source; Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

We don't balance fringe views. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

OK -- The Versailles absolute disarmament was not "gun control" but a specific punitive disarming of the entire nation, and so it is not a valid predecessor for the Nazi-era laws which occurred after a rearmament ("rearmament" generally indicates an increase in the amount of arms in a nation and has nothing to do with "gen control" as an issue). One may discuss the validity of the Versailles Treaty until doomsday, but there is some validity to the argument that the gun provisions were aimed more at punishing Germany than at anything else, and had absolutely nothing to do with what we call "gun control". (See Diplomacy Henry Kissinger; Simon and Schuster, Oct 1, 2012 - 912 pages) [7] Restricting the right of "non-citizens" who had quite simply been "citizens" is reasonably an extension of gun ownership restrictions. Note that I specifically did not say the restriction was done in anticipation of the Holocaust, as that was not the issue addressed. As for the fact that Newt Gingrich spoke in English -- that misses the point utterly -- which is that his words were found sufficiently important to be included in a German book by German authors. Lastly, as to the claim that any "fringe" view is ipso facto deletable from political articles -- I fail to find justification for such a policy argument at all. In fact, political articles are replete with "fringe views" mainly because if a view is held by a significant number of people, it has importance in the political realm. This is not the same as giving credence in Wikipedia's voice that (hypothetically) "all cancer s caused by not reading the works of George Gnarph" or a similar claim of scientifically determinable fact. The case at hand is one of "personal beliefs" and "de gustibus" certainly applies here. The use of WP:FRINGE otherwise would mean, for example, deletion of all minority views on politics across the board, and all minority religious views across the board. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and so we do not do that. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

While the Versailles treaty was not gun control, the law that the Weimar Republic passed before the treaty came into effect that required all people to surrender all guns to the German government was gun control. The 1938 Act did not make it harder for foreigners to obtain guns, but made it easier for citizens to obtain them. And of course, the nazis would soon arm the entire male population of citizens who were not imprisoned, even giving rifles to 13-year olds. Yet no armed rebellion occurred. Indeed the argumentum ad hitlerum is fringe, and has never been defended in academic writing. TFD (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

That law was mandatory under the Versailles treaty -- it was part of a general and total disarmament, and not in any sense "gun control" in a modern context. It was not an option for Weimar to object as the French already sought possession of the industrial Ruhr district as a form of "reparations". Without the Ruhr, Germany could never hope to ever pay 132 billion gold marks - or about 1000 times its GDP without the Ruhr, or so. So much for Weimar having the ability to make any decisions contrary to the wishes of France at the time. And note, I make no such argument "ad hitlerum" at all, and I am affronted you do not note the two distinct issues -- the reality that removing guns from "former citizens" was a restriction on gun ownership. The equivalent debt stress per capita on the US adjusting for the value of gold today would be on the order of $2 million per capita <g>. So much for the side issue of trying to assert that the Weimar law was comparable in any way to "gun control" as it is currently understood. (It is interesting that Germany thoughtfully reduced its armies to having nothing but NCOs to be in compliance with French demands, basically - the French were good at demands, but poor lawyers <g>. Collect (talk) 19:11, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I was not accusing you of defending the Hitler argument, merely saying that you think it should be included. The 1938 law btw did not remove guns from former citizens, rather it continued the restrictions already in the 1928 gun control law. (Note the 1928 Act was different from the 1919 act and not part of any disarmament.) I do not see why the 1919 German law should be seen as disarmament rather than as a gun control law, perhaps you could explain. But if it was not gun control then it weakens the Hitler argument, because it removes one of the examples, that the Warsaw Ghetto and indeed the Holocaust outside the Reich, where 95% of the victims lived, was made possible by gun control. The 1938 Act of course only extended to the Reich, not the occupied territories. TFD (talk) 19:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Please deal with what I write before inserting poor arguments onto this talk page. There are two pieces to the puzzle -- the first is the clear increase in restrictions by the Nazis (removing all gun ownership from "non-citizens" is indeed an increase in "restrictions" especially when coped with "de-citizenizing" groups of citizens.). The second is the apparent and real use of the topic in the gun control debate in the US (and noted even in German publications) where as a political issue and not an issue of "scientific fact" we must cover it if we wish to be an encyclopedia. For example, Scientologists are a small religious group - but we present their positions on topics related to religion - we can not assert that "fringe" is a valid argument to elide a well-known argument utterly without being risible here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I was going to say that I think that everyone would agree that it is used in gun control debate. And the most common use is mere mention for impact, not to make more complex assertions. So I think that equating the use in politics to more complex assertions is sort of going off on a tangent. Second, with respect to "it" in gun control debate, I think we're talking about coverage of that use, and I think that most would agree that that use significantly exists, at least in the USA. North8000 (talk) 20:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

It's effectiveness and origin are irrelevant. It is a major issue in virtually ALL gun control discussions and should be included for that reason. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 20:46, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Just plain wrong. Beyond the U.S., it has hardly been raised at all. This is supposed to be an international overview... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:51, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The Nazi law did not increase restrictions on gun ownership by non-ctizens, it relaxed restrictions on gun owenership by citizens. It did not for example remove all gun ownership from non-citizens, but continued to insist that foreigners had permits. If you disagree, please cite the section of the 1938 law that is any more restrictive than the 1928 law. But there are no gun rights activists in the U.S. that claim aliens have the right to keep and bear arms in the United States.

Also, while we indeed represent the religious views of Scientologists, we do not provide much mention if any of their views in articles about religion, other than Scientology-related articles. Fringe views should only be mentioned if they have significance. For example we might mention in articles about 911 that conspiracy theories challenge the official version. But in the topic of gun control, which includes countries outside the U.S., the fact that the supposedly third largest anti-gun control group in the U.S. (with about 1% of the membership of the largest group) promotes the Hitler argument hardly justifies mention, let alone an entire section.

TFD (talk) 20:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yep. The 1928 law repealed the 1920 total prohibition of firearms possession, and the 1938 law liberalized the provisions of the 1928 law. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 21:11, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Except the NRA has also promoted the argument, repeatedly. Yes, this article should be a international overview. Last time I checked the US was part of "international". Its going to be a pretty empty article if no content that is representing a particular nations issues or POV cannot be included. (beyond the multiple reliable sources showing that the argument has been notable outside the US but apparently those are all just Fnords ) Gaijin42 (talk) 21:09, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Not Fnords. Misrepresentation of sources, for the purposes of synthesis... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:20, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

sources saying an argument is wrong is not the same thing as saying an argument is not notable - quite the opposite. By responding to the argument they are directly showing its notability. As Collect has aptly argued above - pretending an argument does not exist is not encyclopedic. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

edit conflict) Yes, trying to write articles for a world perspective is not a basis for excluding covering items that occur only in or mostly only in one country. By that standard we would delete most of Wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 21:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Although leaders of the NRA have made the Hitler argument in the past, I cannot find any mention of it on their website. It seems extremely tendentious too for the article to make the Hitler argument, yet fail to explains the two pieces of legislation, the Bill of Rights 1689 and the Bill of Rights 1789 that actually protected the right to keep and bear arms. I mean gun rights advocates are far more likely to argue from the Constitution than they are the Third Reich. TFD (talk) 21:44, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I think that the most common uses are more superficial than arguments. For example, there is one saying that I think I've seen 20 variants of over twenty years; to see see a zillion different versions Google "All of those in favor of gun control raise your hand" and pick "images". This is a volley for effect, not an argument. North8000 (talk) 21:57, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, when every leader brings it up, its pretty safe to say its a view of the org. But more recently they were giving significant play to Halbrooks new book. [8] [9] regarding your statement about the two laws, I can see it two ways - In so far as they had a concrete effect on the country, that is more appropriate for that countries article. To the degree that they were inspirational/influential on the larger history of gun rights and gun control, that should be covered in this article. This is in line with my thoughts on the Nazi material as well - The practical effect of the laws (or not) is better served in the German article, or in a dedicated topic article (such as LB recently created) - But the arguments notability within the general gun control debate, and its use as a rally cry, rhetorical point, and proxy for the general tyranny argument is notable to the overall topic. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

In making the gun rights argument, advocates normally begin with gun ownership as a right. For every mention of Hitler, there are a hundred references to the Second Amendment. But there is no argument at all outside the U.S. whether legislatures have the right to restrict ownership of arms, and even when the Bill of Rights 1689 was considered as protecting gun rights, it was protecting the rights of the majority, that is, Protestants, not Catholics or Jews, so the argument that it could have prevented a future Holocaust would have made no sense. And notice the U.S. Bill of Rights refers to the "right of the people", not the "right of minorities." And certainly arguing that one wanted to own a gun in case it was necessary to water the tree of Liberty with the blood of government leaders would hardly have made one seem responsible to own a firearm, except of course in the U.S. TFD (talk) 22:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

That's right. We might as well be discussing Nazi Bladder control, Pest control, or Birth control. This whole article is a play on words. It should be deleted. SPECIFICO talk 23:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I continue to be amazed at how stupid the arguments are here. Again, if we apply terms literally without any regard for context, we get all sorts of absurdities. (Every American is an African American because we evolved in Africa; the Nazis' stealing money from Jews is an example of a 'tax hike.'; and so forth.) Doesn't the fact that no one who has studied this matter in an academic context takes this stuff remotely seriously give you pause?

Collect actually thinks that outside of the U.S., these arguments have more credence! The only people who take this Nazi stuff seriously are U.S. gundamentalists. It has received no attention apart from derision in academic circles, including from conservative scholars. Steeletrap (talk) 18:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Read what I wrote before figuratively inserting your foot in your mouth. As I made no such statement whatsoever, I fear that you are seeking an ad hom rather than looking at my reasoning dividing the material into two separate categories. First is that (apart from the Versailles required disarmament) the fact that laws which barred ownership by "non-citizens" coupled with "decitizenizing" people reduced the number of people who were allowed to own guns -- which I consider a "restriction". YMMV. The second has nothing to do with any editor's beliefs but with Wikipedia requirements -- that all positions on issues be presented in rough accord with their presence in the public debate - if we refuse to admit that some people use the argument, then we are eliding our responsibility to have an "encyclopedia" in favour of a "correct truthopedia." The German usage note was not intended to claim that it is a major issue in Germany, but that the debate has been noted in Germany, in a German book by German authors and printed by a German publisher. And when dealing with "political opinions" we are stuck with the fact that this is apparently a sufficiently widespread opinion - and the sources which deal with the prevalence of opinions state that it is an opinion held by people. De gustibus non est disputandum - we can not say "Wikipedia only covers correct opinions" without saying "Wikipedia only covers true religions" or "Wikipedia only covers correct political opinions." We cover them all, no matter how wrong they are. We can certainly state that "writers on the Holocaust in scholarly journals say this is bosh" with proper sourcing, but that is not the issue here. Collect (talk) 12:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

It's even received derision from William Pierce, who evidently loves Hitler more than he hates gun-grabbing liberals. Now I'm really confused!— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 05:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

@Collect, first, I can't believe you just wrote "figuratively inserting your foot in your mouth." There is no other way that expression is used but "figuratively" unless you're talking about Cirque de Soliel.

Second, please check your definition of ad hominem. While unfair, mischaracterizing someone's argument is not an ad hominem. (And of course, I didn't do that.) Steeletrap (talk) 13:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Where is your evidence that the 1938 Act made any changes to the right of non-citizens to keep and bear arms? It did however lower the age at which people could own firearms and eliminated the long gun registry. TFD (talk) 14:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The Germany Citizenship Law (1935) made Jews into a peculiar group of "non-citizens" in 1935, but this did not appear to remove their right to hold arms. It was the regulations of November 1938 which specified that this particular class of non-citizen was forbidden to have arms. So until that point, clearly "non-citizens" were not barred from having arms, and after the regulation, specific "non-citizens" were barred from having arms. If the law never forbade "non-citizens" from having arms, then the regulation would have had no meaning at all. Therefore we can reasonably aver (and sources support) that Jews were allowed to have arms even after the laws of 1935, and were not forbidden to have arms until 1938 and the November "regulation". Collect (talk) 17:00, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Is Collect actually thinks that outside of the U.S., these arguments have more credence! The only people who take this Nazi stuff seriously are U.S. gundamentalists an ad hom attack or not? Collect (talk) 16:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

No. It is an assertion regarding what you think. Clearly unverifiable, if taken literally, but fair comment based on your previous posts, I'd have thought. You seem to be arguing that these arguments do have a real significance beyond the U.S. context. If so, can you cite the source(s) that led you to this conclusion? So far, all we've seen have been vague passing comments in sources, and material that actually indicates the contrary position - that where the Nazi analogy has been raise at all, it has been done by marginal elements, and has been dismissed accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

It is in your style, I suppose <g>, to assert that editors who do not espouse much other than Wikipedia policies and guidelines are "gundamentalists" but most folks call it "name calling." And you will note my comments above -- the Jews were not barred from owning guns when they became "non-citizens" in 1935 but were only barred latter on in 1938. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I asserted no such thing. As for your original research (if it deserves to be called 'research', rather than guesswork, which is questionable), it is of no relevance to this article. Not that it was relevant to a discussion as to whether the comments made about you were ad hom anyway. And I note that you have failed to answer my question. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Valid or not, this is a common (possibly the most common) argument brought up in gun control debates, and therefore needs to be included. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 19:28, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

query

I am sure this has been addressed before, but I am too lazy to try tracking the discussion down. [10] purports to be an English translation of "Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons 11 November 1938" Is the translation accurate? Thanks. Collect (talk) 15:13, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/349981/gun_control_act_1968.pdf is the congressional record from 1968 that the JPFO often mentions. The congressional translation of the 1938 law starts on page 489, so they could easily be compared. (Not claiming this is a reliable source for citing, as obviously its dropbox hosted, but no reason to doubt its authenticity for this type of casual confirmation) Gaijin42 (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The translation is AFAIK accurate, except the regulation was made under the 1938 act not the 1928 act. However the 1938 act did not give the Minister any powers he did not already enjoy under the 1928 act. He always had the power to remove the right of persons whose trustworthiness was in question (S. 16 of the 1928 act) to keep and bear arms and could have issued the regulation under the 1928 act and withdrawn the right from Jews. Curiously both the 1928 act and the 1938 act prohibit the issuing of permits to Gypsies, although neither mention Jews.

William Pierce's article "Gun Control in Germany 1928-1945" shows complete copies of the 1928 and 1938 acts, and the 1938 ministerial order, with English translations. I won't provide a link, but you can find it easily.

Also, I do not think that the 1938 act stopped foreigners from owning guns. It merely said that people who were not permanent residents (which included people stripped of their citizenship) could only be issued permits with authorization of higher bureaucrats.

TFD (talk) 17:45, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

So basically it was the Regulation of 1938 which increased the restrictions on Jews owning arms, and not the law under which the regulation was issued? Collect (talk) 18:27, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes. TFD (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

So basically Germany used regulations and not laws to increase restrictions on gun ownership? Collect (talk) 19:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The 1938 law did not "increased the restrictions on Jews owning arms." — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The 1938 law did not explicitly target the jews, but the "trustworthiness" clauses were applied against them very broadly. The later regulation did directly target the Jews. The 38 law I think is sometimes conflated by some discussing Nazi gun control , because of the later GCA'68 claims. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, although they could not legally have done that were there no gun control laws in place. TFD (talk) 19:38, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the law specifically put in an authorization for later regulations by fiat, rather than legislation. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

So in the context of this article, is there any notable distinction between "regulations" and "laws"? Doesn't it all still fall under "control"? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

One would think so. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The law did not specifically put in an authorization for later regulations by "fiat" (aka "ministerial order"). The discretion of officials to decline permits was already part of the 1928 Act. TFD (talk) 20:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

That is the law I meant, though I can see that it can be confusing since we are talking about multiple laws. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Any law that gives discretion to a Minister in granting licenses can be used to discriminate against minorities. So on December 1938 the nazis revoked the driver licenses of Jews and therefore their right to own a car. It does not mean that vehicle and driver registration were introduced to facilitate the Holocaust or that it was an inevitable prelude, or that your state government is going to start door-to-door car confiscations any day now. Automobiles are more effective tools in evading the police than firearms. TFD (talk) 21:17, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

What we are left with is simple: German laws and "regulations" as late as 1938 were used to restrict gun ownership by certain large populations within Greater Germany. That means part one of my analysis appears accepted. The issue now is about the "Holocaust connection" which is a separate issue, and one of political opinions and not of specific facts. Its inclusion here depends on whether it is considered a widespread argument in the gun control debate by some groups, not whether it is "true" or not. Collect (talk) 21:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I do not see how it relates to any gun control dispute outside the U.S. because first sources do not say it does and second, there is no dispute outside the U.S. over the authority of legislatures to enact gun control legislation. And if there were no Holocaust connection, then it has no relevance. TFD (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Go back to my initial post wherein I explain why the issue of "increased restrictions" can stand on its own as "fact" and allow the second issue: how to treat opinions "opinions" which may well be totally wrong is distinct from recognizing the factual nature of the first issue. Opinions remain "opinions" in the debate whether or not there is any "real connection" involved. Two distinct issues, and I believe you have now agreed on part one. Collect (talk) 21:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it enough to state that the Nazi's used gun control as a means to exert control over (and/or suppress) particular segments of the population, the Jews in this case, prior to and during WW2? Just about everyone alive knows (and believes, sigh...) what happened to them during the war. Is in necessary to explicitly state it in this article? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:16, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The Nazis did not use 'gun control', they used guns, and a system of industrialised violence resulting in genocide. Beyond the facile propaganda of the U.S. gun lobby there are no credible sources asserting that 'gun control' was of any significance in this process. And Wikipedia is not a platform for the promotion of propaganda. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:15, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The nazis did not use gun control as a means to exert control over Jews. Rather the withdrawal of their privileges to own firearms was one of many of the rights and privileges available to citizens which the nazis removed. And of course Gypsies, who were also victims of nazism, had been deprived of the right to keep and bear arms under the 1928 Act and had never been allowed to have weapons. That is what rs say. TFD (talk) 03:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Wait, we can agree that the Nazis restricted (prevented, took away, confiscated, etc.) ownership of guns by the Jews and Gypsies, but we can't agree that those efforts were a form of "gun control"? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Um, no. It isn't what 'we agree' that matters. It is whether it is seen as significant by reliable sources that matters. Which they don't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:03, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

While Andys comment above is the more Wikipedia Correct argument, a more intuitive approach to the issue (even though that doesn't matter much, it's the reliable sources that matter) is that although we maybe agree that the Nazis forbade ownership of cars by Jews, we're not agreeing that the Nazis were practicing "road traffic reduction measures". Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 08:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not even about that. It doesn't matter if it was "gun control" or not. it doesn't matter how effective it was. It doesn't matter even if it ever happened. What matters is that it is a core argument, right or wrong, that is used against gun control in the United States, and to a much lesser extent outside the US. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 20:11, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

First there is no argument whatsoever about the right of legislatures outside the U.S. to control gun ownership and use. Second, the Hitler argument in the U.S. is limited to extreme gun rights activists. TFD (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

That makes no difference. It's possibly the gun-toter's #1 mantra. If it's ad hitlerum propaganda then say so, but pretending that the argument does not exist would be unencyclopedic.--Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 19:32, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The argument AFAIK was first used in 1968 when the Congress brought in a national gun control law. Opponents then said Hitler did the same thing in order to strengthen his dictatorial power and to facilitate the holocaust. But in every other country there were already national gun control laws and no categorical opposition to them. So the Hitler argument does not come up. In Canada for example, the long gun registry is a topic of dispute, but gun control per se is not. I know of no Canadian politician or notable organization who use calls for scrapping gun control laws or who uses the Hitler argument. If you think the argument has any significance, please provide a source. TFD (talk) 21:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The most extensive use is as a tool (posters etc., possibly with an implicit argument) rather than as an argument. For example, try googling "All of those in favor of gun control raise your right hand" and look at "images" North8000 (talk) 21:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

@TFD: Can I get some clarification? Are you maintaining that the "Nazi Gun Control" argument does not exist in the minds of the pro-gun crowd? --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 21:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

what would the rough lines of your proposed change be then? What content to what section? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 11:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the Hitler analogy exists in the minds of some of the pro-gun crowd. However there is not a pro-gun crowd in the U.S. sense outside the U.S. There is no debate about whether gun legislation should be repealed, only debate about how those laws should be written. If you think that the Hitler argument exists, then please provide sources. TFD (talk) 16:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

RFC is happening at US gun control article

FYI, I have started an RFC here regarding whether or not the check-against-tyranny argument for gun rights is confined to the United States or not.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:14, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Notice of two related RfCs and request for participation

There are two RfCs in which your participation would be greatly appreciated:

• RfC re use of the term "assault weapon"
• RfC re use of the term "high-capacity magazine"

Thank you. --Lightbreather (talk) 17:21, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

United States

This section should begin by saying that the Second Amendment was decided by the Supreme Court to limit the extent of gun control laws that could be enacted. It might be noted that a tiny fringe read the Second Amendment to disallow any gun control laws aimed at citizens, although weight may not justify mentioning them.

The wording is incorrect. Jurists such as Scalia who argue there is an individual right to keep and bear arms reject the argument that there are natural rights. Instead they take an originalist view of the Bill of Rights, and see the right to self-defense as a positive law. Hence prisoners facing execution have no right to self-defense, because that was not a right already existing in 1789 when the Bill of Rights was enacted.

While Jefferson indeed quoted Beccaria, there is no evidence he endorsed it. He put many quotes in his Commonplace Book. The suggestion that he endorsed this view is part of the pro-gun movement argument and if mentioned should be described as such.

It would be better to summarize what rs about gun control in the U.S. say. The current wording is POV OR.

TFD (talk) 18:14, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Idiot question re "anchor"

Here's my idiot question for today. The article, right above the contested Nazi-gun-laws and "tyranny" section has this in it:

"anchor|Gun control in Nazi Germany"

... but the whole thing in curly brackets instead of quotes. Why? How is that used? Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 18:36, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Since section titles can change and thus their location on WP, it's used as a permanent anchor of sorts as long as the template is kept there. Its handy for contentious or often changed articles. Good question! --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Works basically like \label{} in LaTeX. See Template:anchor. siafu (talk) 18:53, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Nazi gun laws are not tyranny in the ancient Greek or founders' sense

Dang, guys! We're sooo close to getting this hammered out. But Halbrook's and LaPierre's Nazi gun control theories are WP:FRINGE and it's WP:SYNTH on any good, general reference editor's part to smoosh it together with the check-against-tyranny that the ancient Greeks or the founding fathers had in mind.

As long as you keep on trying to do this - without a preponderance of high-quality, reliable, verifiable sources - you're going to keep running into trouble. Let it go. Develop a fringe/historical revisionism article and quit trying to legitimize and add undo weight that scholarly research and mainstream media do not support. Lightbreather (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

No, we are not going to have another idiotic debate about what exactly we think the word 'tyranny' means - our personal interpretations of what the word means are completely and utterly irrelevant to the content of this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Sources that don't mention guns

I object to this edit, and not just because it goes beyond 3RR. The edit summary says: "mea culpa. the first time i added this, i left off one of the two sources. neither mentions guns, but most definitely tyranny."

If the sources do not mention guns, then why are they in this Wikipedia article? I don't think that they're particularly relevant here. I would revert, except that I already have two reverts on this article today. Maybe a self-revert would be considered?Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:36, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

They're there to put TYRANNY in context. It's very relevant. If we're going to say that the concept of a check against tyranny goes back to our American forefathers, we also ought to say what tyranny meant in those days.I'm about to go make supper, and I am dead tired. I'll be back tomorrow. Lightbreather (talk) 01:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty much the epitome of WP:Original research to do this kind of thing, especially after an objection has been raised, and then there's 4RR which I guess doesn't matter at this article?Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I posted the salient bits from the D of I on his UT page -- and it is quite clear that military issues were at the forefront, not the tax issues. Collect (talk) 01:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Although certainly taxes were a form of Tyrranny to the founders, their definition was in fact quite expansive. Just one of the major sources at the time. http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/locke/loc-218.htm Gaijin42 (talk) 01:58, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Almost there

I could almost accept how we're presenting the fringe Nazi-gun-control, security-against-tyranny material until these two edits.[11][12]. They, once again, try to give the whole notion more weight than it merits. Lightbreather (talk) 01:36, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

How would you propose to improve?Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:39, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm really tired, and I'm calling it a night. I'll be back tomorrow. Lightbreather (talk) 01:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

And the edits are not acceptable per Wikipedia policy - including WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:54, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Collect, which edits are you referring to? The two that LB mentioned: [13][14]?Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The ones where LB seemed to think that the "tyranny" argument was not from the days of the Constitutional Convention, and has naught to do with Hitler -- contrary to his removal of reliable sources making it abundantly clear that taxation was well down the list of grievances. Collect (talk) 10:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Anythingyouwant OK. I've had a night's rest, breakfast, and coffee. Here goes. Yesterday, I replaced an overlong, WP:UNDUE paragraph about the fringe Nazi gun control theory in the Studies, debate, and opinions section with a much briefer version that links to a WP:FRINGE article about Nazi gun control. [15]

U.S. gun-rights advocates Stephen Halbrook and Wayne LaPierre believe that Nazi gun control, and gun laws in other authoritarian regimes, were a form of tyranny that contributed significantly to past genocides. This hypothesis is not supported by mainstream scholarship.

I could've lived with that. Like Andythegrump and some of the other editors, I personally think this material doesn't belong in Wikipedia at all, but, as a way to break the bunker mentality and move on to other tasks, a Nazi gun control article - edited like the fringe topic that it is - is a workable compromise.

However, you and Collect then proceeded to try to give the topic undue weight again. First, you appended something to the end of the simple paragraph, with the edit summary "Studies, debate, and opinions: mention pertinent section of sub-article."[16] Then Collect added a paragraph above the simple paragraph, [17] with the edit summary "Studies, debate, and opinions: the 'check against tyranny' position antecedes Hitler by a century and should be noted as such."

Net effect (minus the duplicated sources and Wikilinks):

In the United States, some gun owners say the right of private gun ownership is a check against tyranny. Such a position has a long history in gun politics in the United States, and has been noted in some other countries.

U.S. gun-rights advocates Stephen Halbrook and Wayne LaPierre believe that Nazi gun control, and gun laws in other authoritarian regimes, were a form of tyranny that contributed significantly to past genocides. This hypothesis is not supported by mainstream scholarship, but is an element of gun politics in the United States.

You sandwiched the fringe theory between an uncontroversial fact and a misrepresented fact - and both additions direct the reader to Gun politics in the U.S. (the first to the top of the article, the second to the "Security against tyranny" section that Anything has added Nazi gun control material to) rather than the Nazi gun control fringe article.

How to improve the article in regards to this Nazi gun control argument? Remove the bread and leave the meat. The top part has been removed. Good. The bottom part that read "but is an element of..." now reads "though it is a substantial element of..." That is absolute B.S. Scholars and mainstream media don't say that, and neither should Wikipedia. Lightbreather (talk) 16:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

In the United States, some gun owners say the right of private gun ownership is a check against tyranny. Such a position has a long history in gun politics in the United States, and has been noted in some other countries.

Is directly supported by reliable sources (although you removed one reliable source for it - I showed a number of others on the talk page).

U.S. gun-rights advocates Stephen Halbrook and Wayne LaPierre believe that Nazi gun control, and gun laws in other authoritarian regimes, were a form of tyranny that contributed significantly to past genocides. This hypothesis is not supported by mainstream scholarship,

is also supported by reliable sources.

but is an element of gun politics in the United States.

is clearly supported by reliable sources.

If I wanted to use "substantial" that word would be in there -- I do not read things into sentences which ain't in them and is not my problem.

Is there a reason I need to make sure a word which is not in a sentence is not in the sentence? Note: the main section is about views, and is not limited to "Nazi" stuff, and my position on all of this has been clear for a long time --

If we only use the "Nazi stuff" we set up a straw man argument which throws the historical argument out with the bathwater. I trust you do not wish to do that. Collect (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2014 (UTC) Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

"you removed one reliable source for it" Untrue, as explained in this comment. [18] But even if it were true, it wouldn't matter, per my last comment regarding how your addition and Anything's added WP:UNDUE weight to the fringe Nazi gun control argument. I don't think I explain it any more clearly than I already have. Lightbreather (talk) 17:14, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• • My edits reduced the weight given the Nazi argument substantially - so I find your comments less than absolutely accurate here. [19] is very clear: you removed The Issue of gun control, Volume 53] H.W. Wilson, 1981; 192 pages; page 43 which is a WP:RS compliant source. You "moved" a different claim into another section entirely (not the claim supported by the source) and tacked the reliable source onto your wording of a different claim. Which you made into a comment about "taxation without representation" removing any connection to guns <g>. [20] ( This position has a long history in gun politics in the United States. shows your striking out the topic which is supported by the source I had given. Collect (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

[21] shows the latest excision of the reliable source provided -- sorry this removal is absolutely clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a separate edit, today, and the edit summary says exactly why it was removed: Considering it's placement in Gun politics in the U.S. including this in this summary [the United States section of the Gun control article] is WP:UNDUE. Lightbreather (talk) 20:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah -- so you admit you removed a reliable source which is directly on point for the topic of "check against tyranny" antedating Hitler by well over three years? (Actually over 150 years) and your claim is that "the article does not need this information"? Sorry - that does not wash. Collect (talk) 20:25, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

What is your point? Until just now, you've been accusing me of removing something yesterday. This edit [22] TODAY, removed this sentence:

Among many U.S. gun owners, there is a belief that the right of private gun ownership provides security against tyranny.

...from the very top (lead sentence) of the United States section of this article - the general (global) Gun control article. That sentence redirects to the Security against tyranny section of Gun politics in the U.S.... which is already Wikilinked earlier in the article. Why did you restore it? It is unrelated to anything else in this article, and it gives redirects to and gives WP:UNDUE weight to a specific section of the U.S. article. Lightbreather (talk) 20:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

(od) You removed a sentence from a section discussing "tyranny defence" where the straw man is "OMG - Nazi!" and this sentence -- which does not Wikilink anywhere shows that the argument is not just the Nazi straw man, but is an historic position in the US, cited to a reliable source, gives additional information of value to the reader, which is, in fact, the reason for an encyclopedia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

You added it with the Wikilink here [23]; you removed the Wikilink here.[24] So yes, now it doesn't Wikilink. Thanks for fixing that. (Anythingyouwant put it there yesterday.[25]) Lightbreather (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Notice of RfC and request for participation

There is an RfC on the Gun politics in the U.S. talk page which may be of interest to editors of this page:

• RfC: Replace existing Nazi gun control paragraphs?

Thank you. --Lightbreather (talk) 22:10, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Notice and request for participation

There is an RfC a Requested move in which the participation of editors/watchers of this article would be greatly appreciated:

• Talk:Assault weapons legislation#Requested move

It was an RfC, but I realized this is the appropriate process.

Thank you. --Lightbreather (talk) 22:35, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

History section seems to duplicate Right to keep and bear arms

History section of this article seems to attempt to duplicate content we already have at Right to keep and bear arms.

Also Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom#Gun_control_legislation_in_the_United_Kingdom.

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 16:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Agree. That content is duplicated. Lightbreather (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)