Talk:History of the Jews in North Macedonia

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Discussion[edit]

You'll have to make up your minds. Will this article deal with the history of the Jews in FYROM or the history of the Jews in Macedonia (region). More irredentism and challenging Greek sovereignty over Macedonia (Greece) typical of the FYROM, who tends to discuss its history together with the developments in the Aegean sector of Macedonia and the Pirin part of Macedonia is POV. The history of the Jews in Greece is discussed at Jews in Greece - this includes Thessaloniki, which makes this article a fork. To summarize: if this article is to deal with the history of the Jews in FYROM, Thessaloniki is out of the scope of this article; if it is to deal with the history of the Jews in Macedonia (region), then it is forking, and this will need to be seen to. --Tēlex 13:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that User:AWN2 is using back door tactics to promote (Slav) Macedonian irredentist ideas. Politis 13:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think it was an innocent good faith attempt to write a good article. It’s just the confusing overlap between the concepts of Republic of Macedonia, Macedonia (region) and Macedonia (Greece). --Tēlex 13:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am neither Macedonian nor Greek. Most articles that deal with "Macedonian Jews" also include a discussion on the Jews of Salonica. I will include a note under the Salonican entry clarifying that the inclusion of Salonica's Jews does not support Greek or Slavic claims over Salonica. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AWN2 (talk • contribs) .

OK - fair enough. We'll see to it :-) --Tēlex 13:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Difficult to swallow. Note to editors: User:AWN2 Suspected Sock Puppet. Possible connecttion to last week's sock puppets. Please consider blocking. Politis 13:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article says that, The history of Jews in Macedonia began in Roman times, when Jews first arrived in Macedonia in the 6th Century BC. Today, no more than 200 Jews remain in Macedonia, almost all in the capital, Skopje.

  • We are being told that the Roman were in Macedonia in the 6th Century BC!
  • that there are 200 in Macedonia, i.e. in Skopje!
  • Other points: total ignorance of Koretz factor. Usage of over-emotional language, ignorance of plethora of facts. Politis 13:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Politis, please drop it. The article's not so bad now. Why don't you try fixing it (I will later on) - don't mess with personal attacks in the article though. There is just a terminology confusion (see Macedonia (terminology) for details). Believe it or not, many people outside Greece refer to FYROM as Macedonia, so it could have been innocent. --Tēlex 13:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am neither Greek nor Macedonian (Slavic or otherwise). The article was intended to be about the Jews of the republic which borders Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia! Any discussion of "Macedonian Jews" seems to inlcude a discussion of the Jews of Salonica/Thessaloniki, which is why I am including it -- and a reference to the Jews in Greece article -- in the main article. Telex has set up a disambiguation page which will hopefully stop any more vandalism of this article, which is intended to be... "about the Jews of the republic which borders Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia".

Yes. Politis, please stop with the harassment. --Tēlex 14:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vardar Macedonia[edit]

Someone has added the term "Vardar Macedonia" to the article, presumably meaning the area of Macedonia prior to its incorporation into Yugoslavia after WWII. Is there another term for this region? Can I use "the territories now part of the Republic of MAcedonia" without attracting yet more vandalism on this article?? AWN2 15:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)AWN2AWN2 15:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation[edit]

Vardar Macedonia seems to be a neutral term referring to the area roughly encompassed by the borders of the Republic of Macedonia. See Vardar Macedonia and Macedonia (terminology). See also Macedonism for a map. AWN2 10:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)AWN2AWN2 10:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Macedonian identity had been perceived as Bulgarian?[edit]

I don't know if this is an attempt at (albeit inappropriate one): a. Bulgarian indoctrination and propaganda AGAIN on THEIR theories as to the Macedonian ethnicity or b. trying to justify your occupation of Macedonia and genocide of Macedonian Jews somehow? Again, these comments are inappropriate and unrelated to the article. Also, the article has grammatical errors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.54.51 (talk) 07:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Earliest presence and synagogue at Stobi[edit]

An anon contributor just "fact"-tagged the claims that Jewish presence in Mk is attested already in the 4th cent BC(!) and that there was a synagogue at Stobi at that early period [1]. Leaving aside the obvious nonsense of having that period described as "Roman", this seems indeed to be dubious. It is also self-contradictory with the later statement that Jews arrived in Mk only at a time when they "fled persecution in other Roman territories" (which would point towards the 1st cent. AD. or thereabouts. This [2] highly relevant source dates the emergence of synagogues as an architectural type (in any country) to no earlier than the third cent. BC, and in another chapter [3] assigns the earliest historical data attesting to the presence of a synagogue in Stobi to the "late-third century" (AD, not BC). Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:35, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and how to use them[edit]

Sorry, but it seems you have been around for some time and you are yet to get familiar with how referencing works. I have added the reference at the bottom of the page in the references section. I add the exact in-line citation in the block of text itself. There is no need to repeat the same text over and over again. Please, try to get familiar with citation before performing such edits. You might as well wish to take undergo Mentorship. It would help you get familiar with things. You could have engaged in discussion before removing the refs, you know. Thank you. --Laveol T 19:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and, please refrain from removing referenced text. I have added info from a book much relevant to the article. The book gave details on the situation and I added them. It is called Context. --Laveol T 19:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I did not remove the source to the Holocaust encyclopaedia, but just tagged it as dubious, since it is obviously written by an ethnic Macedonian author. It would be much like citing Bulgarian sources for example.--Laveol T 19:54, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello? I added info and did not remove any. This is well-documented and I used proper ways of citing my sources. Not liking it is no reason to remove valid info. I don't actually see you removing large chunks of info. Neither have I. I just added info which scholars researching the subject have found useful to include in their works. Are you going to argue with them? Or is it just that you do not like part of the info. So, I fail to see the reason for random rants which have hardly any relation to the subject matter. Let us take the sentence: In April 1941, as a part of the Invasion of Yugoslavia the Bulgarian army entered Vardar Macedonia, in a strive to recover the region, which it saw as a natural part of its own national homeland.(I did tweak it so it got some proper grammar around it, but in general it was there before my intervention. Now, such a sentence left like that is usually due some questions, like how and why. I saw Mr Chary, who has written quite the work on the subject, clarifying the matter. It is not like I have written something false or unrelated. It is how Bulgarian authorities justified their action, I have not inserted a comment saying it was right or wrong. It simply how it was.
Oh, and, please, refrain from adding silly sentences, like: This means that Bulgarians were not the only bad guys. This is an encyclopaedia, not a comics. Bulgarians have done what they have done in the war and have not done what they haven't. I already pointed you to the mentorship programme. It would be useful, both in terms of getting your way around and helping you write in a proper way (in terms of grammar and style).
Please, read everything I wrote, as I have the impression you did not do it last time around. Sorry, but I will have to regard any further removal of info or references as rather disruptive. You are not new to the project and have received previous warnings.
Thank you. --Laveol T 05:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: This discussion continued here: [4] In order to have complete discussion on the webpage for History of Jews in the Republic of Macedonia, the following text is copy/pasted from there (see: [5])

Hi. As you can see I accepted the apology from the person who gave me the warning (here: [6] on this same page).
:-)
I can advice you to be more patient and read everything before making your conclusions. We are not in a hurry here.
Anyway, I asked you something on your discussion page and I am still waiting for an answer. I will repeat the question here.
Could you please tell me what is the point of the following sentence:

Ever since its independence movement began in late XIX century, Macedonia had been trying to get free from Turkish (and later Serb) rule either as an independent state or as part of Bulgaria proper

in the article about History of Jews in Macedonia?
:-)
Thans for the answer. --Wikimk (talk) 23:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see you haven't read my comment yet. I will wait until you finally decide to do so. Thanks in advance.--Laveol T 04:53, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, if I gave you that impression. I read your messages. Thanks for the suggestions and the comments. But, let me remind you about the question I asked you.
Could you please tell me what is the point of the following sentence:

Ever since its independence movement began in late XIX century, Macedonia had been trying to get free from Turkish (and later Serb) rule either as an independent state or as part of Bulgaria proper

in the article about History of Jews in Macedonia?
Thans for the answer. --Wikimk (talk) 09:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. It seems like I will have to quote myself:
Let us take the sentence: In April 1941, as a part of the Invasion of Yugoslavia the Bulgarian army entered Vardar Macedonia, in a strive to recover the region, which it saw as a natural part of its own national homeland.(I did tweak it so it got some proper grammar around it, but in general it was there before my intervention. Now, such a sentence left like that is usually due some questions, like how and why. I saw Mr Chary, who has written quite the work on the subject, clarifying the matter. It is not like I have written something false or unrelated. It is how Bulgarian authorities justified their action, I have not inserted a comment saying it was right or wrong. It simply how it was.
It is part of my initial comment. I hope this makes it clear.
P.S: Please, read it. --Laveol T 09:24, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please excuse me, my English is probably not as good as yours but i still do not understand what is the point of the last sentence in the following paragraph (taken from here [7]):

In January 1941 Bulgaria adopted antisemitic law called "Law on Protection of the Nation". In March 1941 Bulgaria became an ally of the Axis Powers. In April 1941, as a part of the Invasion of Yugoslavia the Bulgarian army entered Vardar Macedonia, in a strive to recover the region, which it saw as a natural part of its own national homeland. Ever since its independence movement began in late XIX century, Macedonia had been trying to get free from Turkish (and later Serb) rule either as an independent state or as part of Bulgaria proper.

This paragraph is about the introduction of antisemitic legislation in Bulgaria. Not about the Bulgarian historical rights for Macedonia. Changing the last sentence with the one proposed by you will not make this paragraph better. In addition to this, someone might conclude that Bulgaria introduced the antisemitic legislation and sent Macedonian Jews in Treblinka because of its historical rights on Macedonia. We both know that was not the case, and that there was strong opposition to this in Bulgaria. In Romania and Yugoslavia at the same time the antisemitism was on rise. As i said, I think it is better to remove the last sentence from that paragraph. TKind regards, --Wikimk (talk) 11:01, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, I really hate to repeat myself. I have not replaced any sentence. The previous sentence was there. It says that Bulgaria saw the region as part of its homeland. Since left like that the sentence makes no sense, I added the reason for such a view. As I said (and this must be the 10th time I say what I have already said) one of the prominent authors in the field has followed the same line. When writing about the Jews of the occupied lands he mentioned why Bulgarians sought to occupy exactly those lands and not any others. This is context (also something I said) and it helps a reader unfamiliar with the topic understand the situation. And again - this is an encyclopaedia and its aim is to help readers, not omit facts that are of somebody's dislike. Thanks for not reverting anything, btw. --Laveol T 11:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do not ask you to repeat yourself. I am only sharing my opinion that the last sentence of the discussed paragraph to someone could sounds as the justification for the deportation of Macedonian Jews to Treblinka. I tried to remove it, you put it back. The choice is yours. Regards, --Wikimk (talk) 11:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To justify what? Nothing could justify that. And the sentence is not meant as a justification, neither does it sound like one. It just explains why the country decided to occupy those exact territories and not for example Southern Greece or something like that. I have nevertheless re-arranged it to make it sound less like that. See if you like it now. --Laveol T 11:54, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is you opinion. I tried to remove the sentence which sounds to me as a justification of the deportation of Macedonian Jews to Treblinka and you put it back. I do not share you opinion and I do not think that this discussion will help you change your mind. Regards, --Wikimk (talk) 12:20, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, did you see the latest revision? Btw, people usually go into an argument to see the other point of view and not to persuade their opponent (insert other suitable word) in their rightfulness at all costs. I am really amused at the part: I do not think that this discussion will help you change your mind and I am really sorry if that is truly what you meant to say...--Laveol T 14:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I do not mind the fact that we have different opinion. I am sad knowing that you do not mind the fact that someone might consider the end of that paragraph as an excuse for implementation of anti-Semitic legislation in Bulgaria and consequently as the justification for the deportation of Macedonian Jews to Treblinka. Please keep your opinion. I will keep mine. However, it is always good to have a chat. Regards. --Wikimk (talk) 14:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 July 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus (non-admin closure) Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ Talk 15:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

History of the Jews in North Macedonia → History of the Jews in Macedonia (region) – I know Balkans naming is a touchy issue, but this article claims to cover 2,000 years of history with a name that has only applied to the country since 2 years ago—an unsuitable and ahistorical situation. Many sources on the history of Jews in (North) Macedonia actually cover areas that are not presently in the country (see below), so I think it would make more sense to change the name and scope of the article. I would also support another suitable name. (t · c) buidhe 02:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Examples of sources on Jews in Macedonia that are not limited to the present borders of North Macedonia[8][9] (t · c) buidhe 02:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Of course there is a history of Jews in others parts of the region of Macedonia, but those are covered in the Greece (and Thessaloniki) and Bulgaria articles. A Jewish history article exists for every modern European country, just like this one. --Local hero talk 14:42, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as above. North Macedonia is an area as well as a modern country, so there's nothing anachronistic about this. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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