Talk:Holy Qurbana

Koran

It appears that some philologists have found similarities between the words Qurbana and Koran. It would be interesting if we could note this in the article at one point. ADM (talk) 03:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

According to philologist Christoph Luxenberg, author of The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran, the word "al-qur'an" is derived from the Aramaic word "qeryan-a", meaning ‘lectionary’, ­a book of liturgical readings. The book being a Syro-Aramaic lectionary, with hymns and Biblical extracts, created for use in Christian services. This Arabic lectionary is a trace of the pre-Islamic, Christian past of certain Arab communities, who were amongst the first Christians.

• If you can document this, feel free. Arabic is, after all, a semitic language, along Hebrew and Aramaic (Syriac).--Midnite Critic (talk) 04:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

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Holy Qurbana

Can Holy Qurbana also mean Eucharist? I understand the confusion as Eucharist is a sacrament but the origin of Eucharist means thanksgiving which is similar to offering but not as much to sacrifice.Manabimasu (talk) 13:33, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Need for separate articles for East Syriac and West Syriac.

Sophroniscus, the historical development, theology, ecclesiology, and eucharistic theology of the East Syriac Holy Qurbana is radically different from that in the West Syriac Holy Qurbono/Qurobo. For example:

• the Malka (Holy Leaven) and absence of explicit Words of Institution in the Liturgy of Addai and Mari employed in the East Syriac Rite and
• the absence of consecration of Holy Oil (Holy Horn).
  On the other hand, the West Syriac Rite has its origins in the Antiochene Rite which originally developed in Greek language and its eucharistic theology and liturgical structure is identical to that of the Byzantine Rite and Coptic Rite.
  Therefore there is a need to segregate the article into two:

1. Holy Qurbana for East Syriac Rite and
2. Holy Qurbono for West Syriac Rite
   Br Ibrahim john (talk) 16:51, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Elizium23, do you have anything to say on this ? Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:13, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, Yes I have some thing to say on this though I was not addressed in this talk. I strongly feel we can mention these differences precisely in Introduction part and if required add the details in corresponding sections of the article. Not seeing a need of creating one more article just for these differences. Its going to be more confusing. Also note, the Malankara churches Malankara Orthodox and Syro-Malankara (and even Malankara Jacobite church which uses more strict west syrian words like "Mor") are following Antiochene Rite and West Syriac, but they refer their holy mass as "Qurbana" in Malayalam and English (not as "Qurbono" in West Syriac). This may be due to the influence of East-Syriac in St.Thomas Christian denominations in Kerala -John C. (talk) 11:09, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Johnchacks, This is not merely a word play. What I have meant is about the liturgy, theology, sacramental theology and traditions. In almost all aspects the West Syriac Rite and East Syriac Rite are completely counter opposites. The East Syriac Rite belongs to its own separate category and the West Syriac Rite belongs to Antiochene Rite which also includes the Byzantine Rite and Armenian Rite. Moreover the aspects that differentiate the East Syriac Rite Holy Qurbana from the West Syriac Rite Holy Qurobo is more numerous than the similarities that are merely linguistic.
Now with regard to the usage of East Syriac words in the MOSC, JSCC and other West Syriac Rite Churches in India, it is better to mention that linguistic aspect in the specific article for West Syriac Holy Qurbono. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 16:12, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, About the usage of the word "Qurbana" or "Qurbano" in Kerala Churches - that is the additional/related info I included in this talk. I clearly understood what you meant and I am also aware that there are differences and some are counter opposites. But what I am not understanding is the need of a separate article. According to me it can be managed in one article in separate subsections (that is, maintain the present structure). Personally I am not convinced on the idea of creating two different articles. Anyway I am leaving this for the collective decision of you and other editors like Elizium23. Thanks -John C. (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Segregation of the article is important in order to explain the history of development of the Holy Qurbana in Edessan Rite / East Syriac Rite and Syro-Antiochene Rite / West Syriac Rite. Only then the complete explanation regarding the distinctive developmental history and theological aspects can be detailed. For example, there is a need to focus on absence of Words of Institution, usage and hereditary transfer of Malka, pre-anaphoral consecration of the Host etc in the East Syriac Rite. On the other hand, it is also required to enshrine the Greek history and connection of the West Syriac Rite. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Undiscussed page move

Johnchacks, there has not been a discussion before the page move. I oppose the move. What is the necessity of a page move from Holy Qurbana to Holy Qurbana (East Syriac)??? The move needs to be reverted back. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 16:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, There are many West Syriac Rite Churches also using "Holy Qurbana", then how come you can restrict the title only for East Syric Rite Churches? Also on what basis any one in Wikipedia can force the Churches who uses "Holy Qurbana" in their liturgical life to use another term "Holy Qurbono" or "Holy Qurobo" which is not familiar or not even heard by the common people in these churches. The West Syriac Churches like Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, Malabar Independent Syrian Church, Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church uses the term "Holy Qurbana" to refer their Divine Liturgy/Eucharist/Holy Mass. Below are a few links to understand West Syriac Rite Churches also uses the term "Holy Qurbana"

Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church: https://mosc.in/the_church/liturgy/holy-qurbana

Jacobite Syrian Christian Church: https://archive.org/details/jacobitesyrianch0000adai

Marthoma Syrian Church: https://marthoma.in/lectionary/the-sacrament-of-holy-qurbana-ch-25/

When you split the single article "Holy Qurbana" into two articles for East Syriac Rite and West Syriac Rite, you should have taken care for the titles of these new articles. Its totally injustice to take the the title "Holy Qurbana" for Divine Liturgy of one group of churches and forcing millions in West Syriac Churches who are also using the term "Holy Qurbana" to use another term which is not familiar among members of those Churches!! So now what is needed here is the title Holy Qurbana itself to be modified as a disambiguation page. Currently it is a re-directional page to Holy Qurbana of East Syriac Churches. That also can create a lot of confusions.---John C. (talk) 17:53, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Johnchacks, People can call anything as per their own requirement. You can call a crow a dove, a tiger a lion etc. But however that does not alter the status. Holy Qurbana refers exclusively to liturgy in East Syriac Rite. The West Syriac liturgy is called Holy Qurobo or Holy Qurbono in all the traditional West Syriac Rite Churches, including the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Maronite Church. The West Syriac Saint Thomas Christian Churches in India call their liturgy as Holy Qurbana because this of their historical relationship with the Church of the East and the misidentification of the East Syriac liturgy with the West Syriac liturgy. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, Disagree. Whatever you mentioned above are biased views. Its NOT based on people's requirement. Its clearly based on facts. I already given links to understand many of the West Syriac Churches are also using the term "Holy Qurbana". Then how does the statement //Holy Qurbana refers exclusively to liturgy in East Syriac Rite//become true?. Go through the links and understand the facts. And please note, there is no such classification as as "traditional West Syriac Rite Churches" or "modern Day West Syriac Rite Churches". How come any one can say that the term used in many prominent West Syriac Rite Churches to refer their liturgy as a "misidentification"?? Understand that the terms used in many Apostolic Churches have their origins from different languages like East Syriac, West Syriac, Coptic or Greek. Its up to the Church/Churches to decide which term to be used. Here "Holy Qurbana" is the term used in many(not just one) West Syriac Rite Churches and hence we can not restrict that term for only East Syriac Rite Churches ---John C. (talk) 18:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Br Ibrahim john, You are contributing in Malayalam Wikipedia also, right? Then you must clearly know many (or all most all) West Syriac Rite Churches centered in Kerala use "Holy Qurbana" to refer their Eucharist. Then how come you can restrict the title "Holy Qurbana" only for East Syriac Rite Churches? On what basis you are asking to Malankara Orthodox Syrian/Jacobite Syrian/Marthoma Syrian/Malabar Independent Syrian Church to change their terminology "Holy Qurbana" to "Holy Qurobo", a term which is not even heard in these Churches? It "was" causing confusion and it "is" still causing confusion, in fact we should make the "Holy Qurbana" as a disambiguation page at the earliest. I would like to discuss that first. ---John C. (talk) 02:04, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Let the discussion take palce in single talk page. I do not have to time to waste by copy pasting my replies from one page to another just like you are currently interested in. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 02:11, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I am also not interested to discuss the same points in two different talk pages. Note, I copy pasted my reply for the point you raised in that page too. Anyway we need to share the link to the other talk page here. I will do that --John C. (talk) 04:18, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello All, a related discussion is happening in this talk page --> Talk:Holy Qurbono (West Syriac)#Adding Redirection. Please refer there. Thanks --John C. (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2021 (UTC)