Talk:Józef Elsner

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Anton Franz Elsner → Joseph Elsner (composer) —

This was recently moved from Józef Elsner to Joseph Anton Franz Elsner.
I don't quarrel with the Józef > Joseph part of the move, but we don't need the middle names in the title of the article. He's not referred to as "Joseph Anton Franz Elsner", simply as "Joseph Elsner".
But we still need to disambiguate him from other Joseph Elsners. The simplest and best way of doing this is calling this article "Joseph Elsner (composer)". That makes it very clear that this article is about the composer and not the architects. The current name does not do that, since nobody but experts would know from the names alone which Joseph Elsner was which. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 06:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a simpler way to disambiguate: revert back to "Józef Elsner". He did spend the bulk of his life in Polish-speaking Lwów and Warsaw, where he was known by that name. Nihil novi (talk) 06:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reality check with Google Books:

"Joseph Elsner" composer 134

"Józef Elsner" composer 86

And it was Lemberg, Austrian Empire, today Lviv, Ukraine. -- Matthead Discuß 07:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The city's Polish-majority population, as it was till World War II, always called it "Lwów."

And that's actually a very good showing for "Józef Elsner" in Google Books, given the decades of predominant German and Germanophile scholarship in the West for most of the period since the 19th century. Nihil novi (talk) 07:35, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, exiled Poles have always remained very very silent about Poland (and Mikolaj Kopernik, Skłodowska etc.) in their countries of residence, mainly the Germanophile countries France, England etc., and the US, which never ever waged a single war against Germany. How about late 20th century then, counting only books from 1990 onwards?

composer +"Joseph Elsner" 34

composer +"Józef Elsner" 18 -- Matthead Discuß 15:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The point made by JackofOz about the middle names has some merit. As he says, nobody but an expert would know to look for the middle names. However, we do need to disambiguate, and I largely agree with Nihil novi. The page was better titled Józef Elsner. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The middle names are somehow problematic, as Xaver (Ksawery) seem to had been mis-attributed to him. How about simply Joseph Elsner (right now a redirect) for the composer, plus Joseph Elsner (disambiguation)? The architects (sr./jr.) are not yet covered much on en-WP. The senior is also a Silesian, and responsible for the interior of several churches in modern day Poland [1]. When Poles discover him, we may hear claims about another "Józef Elsner" ... -- Matthead Discuß 15:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Title

I have reverted this article's unilateral 25 April 2010 move to "Joseph Anton Franz Elsner" by an editor who, for his combative nationalist disruptiveness, has been indefinitely banned from the topic of Poland and Poles, broadly construed.

Elsner, Chopin's principal piano teacher, spent the bulk of his career in predominantly Polish-speaking cities of the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, where he was known as "Józef Elsner." Nihil novi (talk) 11:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Works list, filling out article

I added a more complete list of Elsner's works, based on the lists in his Polish & German wikipedia articles.

The list still needs a fair bit of cleanup and formatting.

It would be very easy to fill in the main part of the article with far more detail, simply by translating the Polish and/or German wikipedia articles on Elsner.

 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Elsner_%28Komponist%29
 https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Elsner