Talk:James Denning

Death date correct?

How can he have appeared by name in the Census of 1881 when his stated year of death is 1875? Is the year correct?Cloptonson (talk) 12:22, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Link goes on the article name as described in the authoritative source (JD) and context

In the last 4 weeks, you've created around ten links on the technical name of a report (Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales) which redirect to Treachery of the Blue Books. This technical name is hardly used in the real word, in sources other than itself (the Primary Source). What is used, and has been used for well over a 150 years is the article name: Treachery of the Blue Books. Please stop attempting to push your pov; the question isn't what's your opinion or whether you like the word 'treachery' being aimed at a British Government report, but what the sources say. I'm afraid you have a cause of WP:IDONTLIKEIT against the phrase 'Treachery of the Blue Books' (as we can see in your last 4 weeks of editing the Welsh Not and the Treachery of the Blue Books articles). The source here in the article is by the main historian on this subject (the late John Davies), who is the authoritative source (see Penguin's The History of Wales; 978-0140284751), who says in The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales; 070831953X) says:

that the name 'took hold of the public imagination to such an extent that ever since the report has been known by that name.

You've now added a second link to the report, which is not needed; i've now removed it. If you have a reference to an authoritative source which says that the report has been known by the name Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales ever since its publication, then I'll move the link.

Secondly, the rest of the sentence describes the treachery included in the report: "a trait he equates as common between the ‘lower order of Welsh and Irish’, both of whom are ‘dirty, indolent, bigoted, and contented’...", and as Redrose64 said in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Linking a few days ago, the chosen link will depend upon the context. The context is about the treachery, the link should also be on the Treachery of the Blue Books. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 06:25, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Llywelyn2000, I didn't write this article, and when I arrived at it the first mention of the report was: "The 1847 "Report of the Commissioners of Enquiry into the State of Education in Wales..." The reference used seems to be dead now, but I had no reason to believe that the article was wrong to say that.

MOS:BTW says "as a rule of thumb, only link the first occurrence of a term in the text of the article". There is no rule that you can only link to a common nickname for an official report, is there? -- DeFacto (talk). 06:52, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do apologise! It was there years ago. You've amended so many similar links, and within this article, that I took it for granted it was yours!

However, I've used the wording used in the source of this sentence (the John Davies source, and other sources - see the article on the Treachery of the Blue Book) into a much more concise way saying it: The 1847:

'the Treachery of the Blue Books report' rather than 'The 1847 "Reports of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the state of education in Wales" (usually known as Treachery of the Blue Books'.

I think you will that this is much easier for the reader, and true to the sources.

I did ask (above): If you have a reference to an authoritative source which says that the report has been known by the name Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales ever since its publication, then I'll move the link. I note that you didn't respond, therefore. I'll assume that you didn't find one. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 16:05, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Llywelyn2000, Davies doesn't seem to mention Denning on page 624, can you give the correct page number please? -- DeFacto (talk). 20:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Inline citations refer to the preceding text. See: WP:IC. I've added two more. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 04:46, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Llywelyn2000, ah, so when you said above "I've used the wording used in the source of this sentence...", you didn't mean in the source of this sentence, you meant you've found a source that uses another name for the thing being referred to at the start of this sentence and your POV is that it should be substituted into this sentence.

And two other things you might be able to help with:

The original source cited for the whole sentence is dead, are you aware of a source that could be used in its place?
Do you remember writing this just a few days ago? The suggested wording when referring to these reports elsewhere, that you said you "also agree with" was this: "the 1847 Inquiry into the State of Education in Wales - an event subsequently referred to as the Treachery of the Blue Books (Welsh: 'Brad y Llyfrau Gleision')". Now that is very similar to the wording that you replaced here with "The Treachery of the Blue Books report records..." What has changed your mind here? Do you now think your new wording is better, or was that an oversight, and should be reverted back to the more informative text?

- -- DeFacto (talk). 11:15, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've listed all 11 sources (used in the article Treachery of the Blue Books) on the the NPOV Talk page and the outcome was as follows:

only three mentioned 'Reports of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the State of Education in Wales'.
'Treachery / Treason of the Blue Books' or 'Treachery / Treason of the Blue Books report' - I stopped counting at 45. An estimate would be 60.

What's currently on this articles is:

The Treachery of the Blue Books, report^[1]^[2]^[3]

which is factually correct, concise, simple to understand and is the term used most often in reliable, academic sources. End of.

^ Llewellyn, Meic. "Phenomenon of Welshness, The". Gwales. Welsh Book Council. Retrieved 5 September 2021.
^ "Workers' Revolt and the Blue Books". BBC. BBC. Retrieved 5 September 2021.
^ Davies, John (25 Jan. 2007). A History of Wales. Penguin. p. 624. ISBN 0140284753. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)

Llywelyn2000 (talk) 15:13, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Llywelyn2000, I'm not sure how that addresses the points I make about this article. Do any of those sources support the whole sentence we are discussing here? Have you changed your mid since you wrote this?

You seem to be concentrating on proving that that term is common in Welsh sources, which has never been questioned. The issue we have is whether it makes sense to use it unaccompanied by an explanation of what it means, in other articles this general purpose English encyclopaedia, the vast majority of the readers of which are not Welsh.-- DeFacto (talk). 15:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the term 'The Treachery of the Blue Books report' in this article is referenced 3 times. That phrase (or 'treason' and similar) is used many, many times in the 11 sources contained in the Treachery of the Blue Books article. I've listed them, you've read them. The actual long-winded title at the top of the report was only found 3 times!!!. Have I changed my mind, you ask? Of course I have: reliable, academic sources trump everything else! And they use: 'The Treachery of the Blue Books report' or similar.

If a reader doesn't understand the meaning of 'The Treachery of the Blue Books report', then all they need to do is to click the link, and find out more! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 19:22, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Llywelyn2000, it doesn't matter how many references you find to prove that the term exists (and citation overkill is generally an NPOV red flag anyway) that is not the problem here, we know that term exists in Welsh sources.

The first problem though is that the cite at the end of the sentence is dead, so the sentence is currently unsourced. And thanks for confirming that you've changed your mind again, after previously committing to the use of intelligible wording - but no, the article should not need link clicks to make it intelligible to someone who is coming to the subject for the first time, especially when it is such a trivial task to make it clear. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Painting of Jesus by a prisoner, given to Rev James Denning

I have a beautiful painting, left to me by my friend the late Ms Sheila Hooper who was his grand daughter. It was painted for Rev James Denning by a prisoner, according to the label on the back, written by Sheila. Sheila sadly passed away May 2022 aged 97 after a fall. I have the family tree that goes back to King Robert the Bruce. Her name and her brothers are added by hand at the end of the official tree drawn up. Her brother, therefore Grandson of Rev sadly passed away recently and buried Jan 23. He designed the Hawker Harrier Jump Jet and Hawk, becoming Director of Design at BAE Ham. He passed away aged 96, having lived on his own in Ham, unmarried until 2020 lockdown, when he had a stroke and moved in to be cared for by Sheila, who lived on her own in Long Ditton. He recovered, tough survivors, she had no home help, still had an open fire, he sawed the wood for and a hot meal each lunchtime of course! Sheila has 27 plants named after her, she worked for Kew Gardens, a 28th being published soon.

An amazing family. 92.19.136.125 (talk) 14:57, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Llewellyn, Meic. "Phenomenon of Welshness, The". Gwales. Welsh Book Council. Retrieved 5 September 2021.

[2] "Workers' Revolt and the Blue Books". BBC. BBC. Retrieved 5 September 2021.

[A_History_of_Wales-3] Davies, John (25 Jan. 2007). A History of Wales. Penguin. p. 624. ISBN 0140284753. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)

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