Talk:Jewish lobby

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"Us Lobby" Template[edit]

User:JoshuaZ removed a "US Lobby" template, and User:Carolmooredc reverted it back in. I'm having difficult seeing why it belongs here, though. This article isn't about an actual American lobby, it's about a term that some people use to mean "Israel lobby" and/or imply a conspiracy of Jews. Also, the many references in the article to other countries make it clear that the term is not specifically American or about the United States. Is there any good reason this template should remain? Jayjg (talk) 01:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't even notice the template was here until it broke. I removed the template for essentially similar reasons to yours (it is about lobbying in the formal sense of the word). I then looked over and fixed the template. So, while it is now functioning, it doesn't quite make sense here. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
There is a section on "activities." And note that the references are all 3 years old or older. For some reason after "J Street" started operating the phrase started popping up even more in mainstream media to discuss pro-Israel lobbying, including with more descriptions of what a "Jewish lobby" is that would be appropriate for this article. (Don't have time to supply such refs now.) I personally don't like the term for pro-Israel lobbying and think it would be nice if it was used only to describe non-Israel related lobbying by various Jewish groups on issues of interest to them or in general. (Just like "Catholic lobby" or "Hindu lobby" could be used.)
But tell that to all the mainstream media - including in Israel - that bandy it about freely. As long as they keep using it and describing what it is and what it does as a "lobby" the fact there is such a lobby remains relevant and therefore deserves a lobbying template. Obviously there are antisemites using the phrase in a pejorative way and that should be recognized. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
The Jerusalem Post recently referred to J Street as the "leftist American Jewish lobby."[1]. An Israeli Government minister is annoyed that one of the opposition parties wrote a letter saying something favorable about J Street. So the phrase is being used in the Israeli press now. --John Nagle (talk) 06:47, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I fail to see the connection. That's describing J Street, a specific group which is Jewish. That's not the same use of the term "Jewish lobby" as it is generally used or how this article means it, meaning an amorphous collection of organizations or people who are claimed to have undue influence, etc. not at at all a lobby in the normal sense of the word; the article is about the term as it is used, not specific groups .The US Lobby template would make sense on the main article for J Street, not here. JoshuaZ (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Agree with JoshuaZ. The comments you are making aren't really relevant to the points initially raised in this thread. Yes, we know that various sources use the phrase "Jewish lobby" to refer to either the Israel lobby, or to various lobbying groups, or to allege Jewish conspiracies. And the article already states that the Israeli press, for example, uses the phrase. But this article is about the use of the term; who uses it, how they use it, and various assessments or reactions to that. It's not about any specific lobbies, such as J Street, or the broad Israel lobby in the United States etc. Thus, while the template may well belong in those articles about actual lobbies, it doesn't belong in this article about a term/phrase, and no rationale has been presented to retain it. Jayjg (talk) 02:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
First, JoshuaZ, I assume you have read Jayjg's comment above and realize article is NOT only about, as you put it meaning an amorphous collection of organizations or people who are claimed to have undue influence.
Second, Jayjg, I don't think it's up to wikipedia editors to narrow the scope of an article if WP:RS have a broader one. Jayjg writes: this article is about the use of the term; who uses it, how they use it, and various assessments or reactions to that. Then the article should be called "Jewish lobby (use of the term)." Of course many would think that a POV fork. And maybe "Use of the term" needs to be an explicit subsection (not that I have a specific suggestion).
Now I personally prefer not to use it if talking about the pro-Israel lobby but think its acceptable talking about Jews lobbying together against, say, some obviously antisemtic law or for greater police protection were there antisemitic attacks, etc. Maybe you do not even like the latter use. But it's not our personal preferences that matter in wikipedia, but how reliable sources define and use the term/concept/etc. I don't feel like arguing that point any more right now; we can do it more and bring it to a larger forum if we can't consense when I add relevant material in the future.
At this point I won't argue any more to keep the template, since I won't have more to add for another week or so. But in the future should I or others add further information is added on actual lobbying by groups described in detail as - or describing themselves as - "Jewish lobby" (including to update the article from its 2008 status), I would support putting it back. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Carol, we haven't "narrowed the scope" of this article in any way; however, one cannot have two articles on the same topic, which has been a persistent issue with this article. This article is about the term "Jewish lobby", not about the Israel lobby in the United States. Jayjg (talk) 22:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense. J Street is in a clearly different category. It is a Jewish lobbying group. Hence the two words happen to together. That's not the same thing. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Re: Jayjg writes: "this article is about the use of the term; who uses it, how they use it, and various assessments or reactions to that." Didn't that issue come up in one of Jayjg's arbitrations? --John Nagle (talk) 05:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I've participated in over 130 arbitrations. Please stop focusing on me, or even mentioning me, and instead focus solely on article content, per WP:NPA and WP:TPG#YES. I haven't seen any arguments yet for keeping the template. Jayjg (talk) 22:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
JoshuaZ: I really don't understand your point; what is not the same thing as what? Though note that J Street says it's not just a Jewish lobbying group.
Jayjg: I am not proposing that we detail what the Israel lobby does in this article. I am saying that the fact that the term is used frequently by mainstream media to designate pro-Israel lobbying has to be recognized if done so in appropriate fashion by WP:RS, and I believe I have found a few, not necessarily those mentioned above. But until we have actual edits entered into text to debate over, we are just debating generalities.
John Nagle: "one of Jayjg's arbitrations?" It came up in mediation here; I don't know if it was a topic in other problems/issues of April 2009. CarolMooreDC (talk) 11:47, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Carol, we're discussing the removal of the inappropriate template, which you reverted back in. That's an "actual edit entered into text to debate over". However, since you say there's no longer any debate over this, I'll remove it. Jayjg (talk) 03:00, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
"No longer any debate over this?" I don't think so. We have {{user|Jayjg|| claiming that the "Jewish lobby" is not a lobby. That's a bit much. (Amusing note for today: if you search Google for "Jewish Lobby", AIPAC comes up near the top of the results.) --John Nagle (talk) 04:57, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
John, stop focusing on me. That means, rather than making inaccurate or misleading comments (to some invisible audience) about me, or even mentioning me here, instead focus solely on article content, per WP:NPA and WP:TPG#YES, and address the specific content issues raised here. The fact that the phrase "Jewish lobby" exists, and is used in various ways, is not in question. Is it your contention that "Jewish lobby" is a synonym for AIPAC? Jayjg (talk) 00:14, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Us lobby clearly does not belong as its been explained above. I added the appropriate {{Antisemitism}} template as it reflects the articles sources.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
An "Antisemitism" template seems inappropriate here. That should be discussed here first. Putting it down in the section that discusses the claim that it's antisemitic is more appropriate, though. --John Nagle (talk) 03:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I clearly said we did not need to debate whether "we detail what the Israel lobby does in this article." since I was not proposing that, as you inaccurately claimed. Earlier I said first As long as they keep using it and describing what it is and what it does as a "lobby" the fact there is such a lobby remains relevant and therefore deserves a lobbying template.(16 March) Then I got tired of debating it and wrote At this point I won't argue any more to keep the template, since I won't have more to add for another week or so. But in the future should I or others add further information is added on actual lobbying by groups described in detail as - or describing themselves as - "Jewish lobby" (including to update the article from its 2008 status), I would support putting it back.(17 March) But John Nagle's argument that it's absurd not to have the template - again given the fact that mainstream media so often DO use it. Being tired of arguing isn't an argument, after all. But maybe we need outside NPOV opinions on this NPOV issue. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:02, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Lede too short[edit]

With increased editing and talk activity, I lengthened the resulting fore-shortened lede. While agreeing with the removal of OR from there, it still seemed insufficient to cover requirements and content. The edit summary states: "BOLD rewrite of lede; improve per MOS, existing refs, content, its organization and necessary context (legitimacy of how, where, by whom, and better highlight included differences). See talk" I also removed the ref cites. It does reflect however, a basic AGF assumption that there are legitimate usages of the term, characterized in the first sentence, and those less-so in the second. Is there a consensus for this basic assumption? If questions of wording arise, I am prepared to discuss the specific phrases chosen; that's how it got to where it now stands. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Given it's a controversial topic you need refs - preferably with quote from source - for every contention here: conducted by predominantly Ashkenazi Jews living in their diaspora in a number of Western countries. While at times self-described, usage of the term to allege disproportionate Jewish influence leads to stereotyping, and can be perceived as pejorative or may constitute antisemitism. With changes over time, more recent usage of the term is also viewed as inaccurate. Second two sentences both a bit weasel word and/or confusing/unclear. Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:26, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Looks reasonable at first glance. A 'bot had to rescue a reference, though, so check the references. --John Nagle (talk) 20:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Not a bad effort. I removed the Ashkenazi Jews part, since none of the sources mentioned Ashkenazi Jews. I also removed the phrase "more recent usage of the term", since none of the sources discussed that, and it's not (in my view) particularly accurate. Also, I did some copyediting; for example, your version basically defined "Jewish lobby" as "Jewish lobbying", which is circular, so I changed that to "lobbying by Jews". Regarding your question, though, I would say that there really aren't many "legitimate usages" of the term these days, which is why people keep getting into hot water for using it, particularly when they mean "Israel lobby". Contrary to Carol's assertion, however, you don't need citations for everything in the lede, you really just need to make sure it's cited in the article itself. Jayjg (talk) 23:09, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I've just changed "lobbying by Jews" to "lobbying attributed to Jews", which is a far more NPOV and accurate way of summarizing what the phrase means. That pretty much covers all uses, whether accurate, inaccurate, neutral, antisemitic, etc. Jayjg (talk) 00:26, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Well that went well overall. From the changes in the first sentence, I'll assume we have the legitimacy consensus I noted, even though few responses were given. The first change there started as organized Jewish lobbying and became lobbying attributed to Jews. That seems ok except for the loss of 'organized', which has been resident in most past lede versions, as 'or allege organized Jewish influence'. It remains a relevant word, given all the organizations on the page, so I reworked it into organized lobbying attributed to Jews. Other changes made are the loss of the Ashkenazi link, rightly noted it as not yet on the page, and the usage of 'their' diaspora, which is already ref'd on the page, from Youssef Ibrahim, but in poor context for now. However, since other diasporic/ethic lobbies exist, the pipe was removed. I don't have much to say on the second sentence, except stereotyping is already ref'd but not cited on the page; BB-Au states, "Another manifestation of the stereotyping takes the form of equating all Jews with the so-called Jewish lobby." Maybe it could be worked in. I do have some trouble with the deletion of the third sentence and the attendant co-mingling of 'inaccurate' with those 'antisemitic and/or pejorative'; the article's organization clearly indicates these are validly separate and had I attempted to reflect that. Admittedly the 'changes over time' transition is not yet sufficiently included, but just based on content, it deserves to stand on its own. Regards,CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:28, 30 March 2011 (UTC) PS. I agree that usage of the term has become less legit and easily included among those 'changes over time' which fell out. Most sources agree too, but as pointed out, until that transition material is on the page, it is hard to get it into the lede. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 13:28, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

RfC[edit]

Light bulb iconBAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

reversion[edit]

I've reverted the removal of this language: While at times self-described, usage of the term is viewed as inaccurate, and – particularly when used to allege disproportionate Jewish influence – it can be perceived as pejorative or may constitute antisemitism. It was blanked without comment or summary. --jpgordon::==( o ) 05:04, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Changes to archive settings[edit]

The settings on this page governing the activities of the archival bot previously read:

{{User:MiszaBot/config
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|maxarchivesize = 200K
|counter = 4
|minthreadsleft = 4
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|algo = old(14d)
|archive = Talk:Jewish lobby/Archive  %(counter)d
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I have changed them to:

{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
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|counter = 4
|minthreadsleft = 10
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Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 17.9 KB I have set the time setting to a relatively moderate 30 days but a higher value might be considered. Gregkaye (talk) 13:18, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

  • I just want to add that I appreciate that some admin type Wikipedia pages have low level settings in "minthreadsleft" and, in this context, I can understand how a low level setting might have been installed here.
In my pov, talk pages like this connect to subjects to which a wide variety of views may be ascribed. It seems to me that adequate space should be given for the address of relevant issues and by a variety of editors. Gregkaye (talk) 10:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

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Is this daily mail link OK as a source ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 (talk) 02:50, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

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Encyclopedia or Thesaurus?[edit]

At the moment this article is pretty poor quality, it is just various people, mostly Jews arguing backwards and forwards over the meaning of the term, rather than describing the who, what, where, when of the various Jewish lobby groups in different countries. I don't think it can be seriously denied that the World Jewish Congress and its subsections, essentially is the Jewish (not just pro-Israel) lobby. Period. It describes itself as "the diplomatic arm of the Jewish people." I mean, does anybody seriously deny that groups like American Jewish Congress, Conseil Représentatif des Institutions juives de France, Board of Deputies of British Jews, etc exist to lobby the governments in respective countries on Jewish issues? Surely there can be no clearer and objective example of a Jewish lobby than that? Claíomh Solais (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)