Talk:Judo/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

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External links modified

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Reverts to an old version of the page

The version that was in place before a certain user came and started reverting is by far a lot more thorough and descriptive. Don't understand why they want to revert back to a version that is out of place and difficult to understand.--SeminoleNation (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I would like to resolve this without having to escalate matters. You are introducing what is called original research into the article, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. You have previously indicated that you participate in so-called "freestyle judo", which is a hybrid of judo, bjj and wrestling that has dropped some of the traditions and terminology of the original kodokan judo. I understand you want the article to resemble your experience of the sport, but you are placing undue weight on an extremely small, minority view it, introducing terms and concepts that would not be recognised by 99.9% of participants. Judo worldwide is practiced by an estimated 28 million people and has a 136 year history. To alter the article to reflect on a style of judo (freestyle) that has existed for maybe a decade and is practiced by a few hundred people at most is really not the way to go. It validates the concerns of people who regard wikipedia as unreliable.
If you want an article that reflects freestyle judo, start an article on freestyle judo. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 09:27, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
First of all, you know nothing about me. I have been training over 20 years in Kodokan Judo. I just moved to an area with a new Gym that is a part of the Freestyle Judo movement. Don't try to downplay my years of training in Judo because you aren't familiar with the Freestyle Judo rule set. If you actually took the time to understand what was changed in the article you would realize that it is much easier to understand for the English audience of this page. You haven't got a clue of what the Freestyle Judo rule set is. It very much resembles pre 2010 IJF rules with more time for Newaza. Do NOT go around believing that this is a brand new art. You are misinformed sir.--SeminoleNation (talk) 16:07, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
You need to get agreement for your changes, once they've been reverted, per WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS. That's the process. You might get agreement for some of your changes, but probably not all. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:24, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Consensus for what? For improving the readability and out of place information the previous version had? I added nothing that was my personal opinion. Why am I being singled out because a particular person has a bias. He literally has no argument for anything that I improved on the page. This is absolutely ridiculous.--SeminoleNation (talk) 03:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
It's nothing to do with bias. Major objections to your edits are the liberal incorporation of sections copied and pasted from the article Brazilian jiu-jitsu and from Clinch fighting. These introduce concepts and terms that are not recognised in mainstream judo. You will not find scholarly sources about judo texts that use this terminology. By way of analogy, it would be a simple matter to copy and paste sections from Cricket or Rounders into Baseball. The information might well be technically correct from a practical point of view, but if it introduces terms that are not used in the sport of baseball, it would be unacceptable. On the other hand it would be allowable to refer to baseball in a cricket-related article using cricket terms. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 07:48, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
It would help, SeminoleNation, if you would break down your edits thematically, addressing Catfish Jim's objections, which I think are valid, by leaving those additions for later, while making changes, after suggesting them here first, that are less controversial. You're making changes that amount to over 5 kilobytes of raw text, which is a large change to make. What makes you think that you, by yourself, are capable of seeing what this article needs? Dhtwiki (talk) 21:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


Okay I'm willing to play along then. I will go step by step and describe what I changed. Let me know if I have damaged the article according to you guys or whoever is reading this.

1. I have moved the information this information below from the subsection "Competition Judo" to the History section because I feel that it is out of place. The whole section and that image talk about the history of Judo. I feel like it fits better in the History section as it shows a progression throughout the years of the evolution of Judo.


Yoshihiko Yoshimatsu attempting to throw Toshiro Daigo with an uchi mata in the final of the 1951 All-Japan Judo Championships

shiai or jiai with rendaku (試合, Contest) is a vitally important aspect of judo. In 1899, Kano was asked to chair a committee of the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai to draw up the first formal set of contest rules for jujutsu. These rules were intended to cover contests between different various traditional schools of jujutsu as well as practitioners of Kodokan judo. Contests were 15 minutes long and were judged on the basis of nage waza and katame waza, excluding atemi waza. Wins were by two ippons, awarded in every four-main different path of winning alternatives, by "Throwing", where the opponent's back strikes flat onto the mat with sufficient force, by "Pinning" them on their back for a "sufficient" amount of time, or by Submission, which could be achieved via "Shime-waza" or "Kansetsu-waza", in which the opponent was forced to give himself or herself up or summon a referee's or corner-judge's stoppage. Finger, toe and ankle locks were prohibited.[1] In 1900, these rules were adopted by the Kodokan with amendments made to prohibit all joint locks for kyu grades and added wrist locks to the prohibited kansetsu-waza for dan grades. It was also stated that the ratio of tachi-waza to ne-waza should be between 70% to 80% for kyu grades and 60% to 70% for dan grades.[1]

In 1916, additional rulings were brought in to further limit kansetsu waza with the prohibition of ashi garami and neck locks, as well as do jime.[2] These were further added to in 1925.

The first time judo was seen in the Olympic Games was in an informal demonstration hosted by Kano at the 1932 Games.[3] However, Kano was ambivalent about judo's potential inclusion as an Olympic sport:

I have been asked by people of various sections as to the wisdom and possibility of judo being introduced with other games and sports at the Olympic Games. My view on the matter, at present, is rather passive. If it be the desire of other member countries, I have no objection. But I do not feel inclined to take any initiative. For one thing, judo in reality is not a mere sport or game. I regard it as a principle of life, art and science. In fact, it is a means for personal cultural attainment. Only one of the forms of judo training, so-called randori or free practice can be classed as a form of sport. Certainly, to some extent, the same may be said of boxing and fencing, but today they are practiced and conducted as sports. Then the Olympic Games are so strongly flavored with nationalism that it is possible to be influenced by it and to develop "Contest Judo", a retrograde form as ju-jitsu was before the Kodokan was founded. Judo should be free as art and science from any external influences, political, national, racial, and financial or any other organized interest. And all things connected with it should be directed to its ultimate object, the "Benefit of Humanity". Human sacrifice is a matter of ancient history.[4]

Nevertheless, judo became an Olympic sport for men in the 1964 Games in Tokyo. The Olympic Committee initially dropped judo for the 1968 Olympics, meeting protests.[5] Dutchman Anton Geesink won the first Olympic gold medal in the open division of judo by defeating Akio Kaminaga of Japan. The women's event was introduced at the Olympics in 1988 as a demonstration event, and an official medal event in 1992.

Thoughts?--SeminoleNation (talk) 18:54, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

My thoughts are that it can only be considered at its current level of detail as a subsection of the competitive judo section. To introduce a large section of competitive judo history into the general history section would seriously unbalance the history section and rebalancing it would either involve cutting the competitive judo history substantially or expanding the other aspects of judo history such that the article becomes unpalatable. I considered this in some depth when I originally rewrote this article a few years ago and the current structure was the best option. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 15:55, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b Hoare (2005) pp. 4–7
  2. ^ Hoare (2009) p. 109
  3. ^ "The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano". Judoinfo.com. Retrieved 2016-02-21.
  4. ^ Koizumi (1947)
  5. ^ Black Belt Vol. 2, No. 2. Active Interest Media, Inc. Mar 1964. p. 27.

Judo ethymology

hi,

there is a paper which states that

Hindi word ‘yuddha’ has been derived from ancient holy sanskrit root ‘yuddh’ which means ‘to fight’. It has been the root of of such Japanese words as ‘judo’ and ‘jujutsu’ brought to this country by the Indian Buddhist monks.

60.52.50.71 (talk) 04:38, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

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