Talk:Keppel Gate, Isle of Man

Keppel Gate/TT Course Template Box

This point on the Snaefell mountain course or Mountain Course is preceed by the 33rd Milestone and the next following point on the course is Kates Cottage. The title of the course is Snaefell Mountain Course or Mountain Course rather than Isle of Man TT Course as there has been more than one 'course' and also the Tourist Trophy racing on the Isle of Man for cars predates the races for motor-cycles.

Also the position on the map is also inaccurate. Perhaps you would like to correct this as with other points on the Snaefell mountain course and use a better map that already exsists. Would someone alter the title of the Template Box as I have been unable to do so. (11thmilestone (talk) 12:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC))

If there are particular facts that you feel are inaccurate, then you should correct them. However, large-scale reversion of unrelated changes is vandalism, and you should desist from such actions.

Wikipedia's Manual of Style says that the most common name should be used to refer to things: the TT Course is vastly, vastly more regularly referred to as the 'TT Course' - it's the current one, even though there were obviously other incarnations at earlier times. 'Snaefell Mountain Course' is a much more niche term. Mauls (talk) 21:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Keppel Gate was at Kate's Cottage

Editor Rocknrollmancer elsewhere indicates a location/naming issue: "(tps) Keppel Gate was immediately to the side of Kate's Cottage - this curve/bend was named as something entirely different, then renamed as KG. I've been sitting on this for a long time...."--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:23, 17 June 2015 (UTC) Thanks, Rocknrollmancer, for noting that. That's my impression too, from posted old photographs and their descriptions on-line. It is "okay" for a name to be transfered to apply to a different location; it adds rather than detracts from notability IMHO. It can/should be covered in this article. --doncram 14:53, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I'll sort out the magazine - 1966/67, I think, the interviewee giving the information is so notable...that he has two wikipedia articles, one for himself as a rider and the other as a slightly-famous motorcycle manufacturer!--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

encyclopedic reporting on riders opening and closing gates

Some coverage that there was a sheep gate, and that it originally needed to be opened and closed, is essential for this article IMHO. It is documentable that this is what is interesting to others, that it is part of what makes the place historically notable. So in this edit I quoted a published BBC radio version of the story:

Keppel Gate is a bend of the A18 that is "now a fast left-hander" on the course. As told by a BBC correspondent, it "is so named because there was a gate there; in the early days of TT racing, the leading rider was obliged to dismount from his spindly machine and open it; and it was the duty of the luckless rider at the back of the field to get off and close the gate behind him."

Many other sources are available about that as an anecdote/story. This one is a well-written good source, though, and I think using the quote provides proper distance for Wikipedia as an author, rather than Wikipedia saying with undocumentable details. In effect Wikipedia is saying "it is said that..." at some point in time for the mountain track to be used in motor-cycle racing Note it does not even assert this applied for any specific organized race such as the first Isle of Man TT race that used this route. It is a true statement if only a few times, in informal practice racing, that's the way it worked among a few riders.

Within 4 hours an editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Keppel_Gate%2C_Isle_of_Man&type=revision&diff=666447979&oldid=666428247 reverted with edit summary "Origin of Name: Sheep Gate. Removing factual incorrect and factitious account. The job of opening the gates was allocated to Mountain Shepherds"]. The way Wikipedia works is we report the consensus of what sources say, and they say this happened. The assertion by one person, based on personal knowledge without any identified source at all, is not relevant. What matters is I concede that we, as a collective Wikipedia author, don't want to make assertions that we really do know are false, even if we have several sources asserting the false idea. But that is not what the removed statement does. I don't think any reasonable person seriously doubts that there once was a gate (at the current location of the corner or somewhere in the general vicinity) and that it was opened and closed by riders, at least at first. And I simply don't believe an assertion that "Mountain Shepherds" were available and willing and hired to help any random few riders going through, always, and they were there always and always prevented riders from opening/closing it. It would require strong sourcing to make a general statement out of that; it is certainly a false assertion as an always/never statement (which can't be true).

The Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man article carries this: "Contemporary photographs of the Isle of Man TT races in the 1920s and 1930s show sheep-gates at Kate's Cottage and also at Keppel Gate, with the name Keppel Gate referred to at both the locations.[sourced to Motocourse History of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Races 1907-1989 by Nick Harris page 24 and page 100 (1990)(1st Edition) Hazelton Publishing ISBN 0-905138-71-6]" with footnote suggesting the source states (perhaps as a photo caption?): "The Gate is kept open at Keppel Gate during the 1921 Senior TT Race. This part of the Course is now called Kate's Cottage."

Any comments about what can/should be said? If there are no reasonable objections based on reliable sources, I expect to pause for a few days then return the original statement above or something like it, as well as adding something from the Harris source to the article. I welcome refinements, including any alternative wording drawing from the BBC source, a scanned version of which is on-line though access to this part may vary. Note this also applies for coverage of gate opening and closing by riders at Kate's Cottage, in the Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man article, using a source or two about it happening there, too. --doncram 23:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I've added my input into the lede only, and will inline cite there with the quotation written into the reference, I think. It might change when the mag turns up. There is a bit in it about the 'stealing' of the gate post, in the night from the side of Kate's Cottage. I've also restored the TOC, and resited the image with an enhanced caption. Lastly, the contribution history and editors are very enlightening!--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Reads reasonably-well, now.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 19:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

BRD

R.O.Clark 1920 Isle of man TT

From the many misleading descriptions, it is not possible to exactly determine the location of the accident and the whole area was completely by-passed in 1923 by the new section of road. In the 1967 citation from the Motor-Cycle magazine with the suggestion by the former competitor H.R.Davis that;- “….Nowadays the left-hander above Kate's is called Keppel Gate but that is wrong. That is (or was) Clark's Corner.” This been misunderstood and this is a reference by H.R.Davis to the section of mountain road and track that was by-passed in 1922-23 and then completely disappeared. There is no reference to the ‘corner with the gate’ by the former competitor H.R. Davis and only the general area. This citation cannot support independent notability for the article and has been removed. WP:N There is also an issue of the citation being a questionable source WP:QUESTION as the competitor H.R. Davis crashed on the previous lap between the Verandah and the Bungalow during the 1920 Junior TT Race and did not witness the accident to R.O. Clark.WP:NOTRELIABLE

The publication by G.Davison from 1958 "The story of the TT" states that the accident to R.O. Clark happened at the “the left hand bend above Keppel Gate.” As a respected author and journalist, the many publications by G.S. Davison often give the best account. However, this citation does not support independent notability and by the authors own admission did not attend the 1920 Isle of Man TT Races. The author G.S. Davison was an agent for Levis motor-cycles in 1920 and as a works supported rider with Levis motor-cycles he won outright the 1922 Isle of Man Lightweight TT Race. The competitor R.O.Clark also rode a 250cc Levis motor-cycle during the 1920 350cc Junior TT and held the lead of the race for one lap during bad weather conditions. The citation is also a questionable source as the claim is largely ‘promotional’ as G.S. Davison as he was a former Levis agent and works rider. WP:QUESTIONWP:NOTRELIABLE

Plagiarism

Publications in respect to the Isle of Man TT in either in books, magazines or newspaper articles are notoriously of very poor editing quality are full of mistakes and contradictory facts. There are often errors caused by repeated plagiarism by journalists and what Wikipedia describes as “circular references.” The 1958 C.S. Davison citation (first published in 1927), the 1967 Motor Cycle citation and the 1967 publication "TT Races Diamond Jubilee 1907-1967" citation all use a similar expression a “ left-hand-bend” and/or “above Keppel Gate.” and not the ‘corner’ at ‘Keppel Gate’ or the ‘corner with a gate’ at ‘Keppel Gate’ (‘Keppel Gate’ had a livestock gate along with the gate at the ‘Keppel Cottage’). This would suggest repeated plagiarism by journalists over a period of time creating inaccuracies and incorrect information. This can be shown by the 1967 (Peter Arnold) "TT Races Diamond Jubilee 1907-1967" page 23 references which states “....Clark crashed just before Keppel Gate (the bend is now known as Clark’s Corner” which before and after 1967 is clearly incorrect, inaccurate and highly misleading. Also, the course guide in the 1920 Official Isle of Man TT programme labels the area as “Keppel Gate.” The course guide for the Isle of Man TT programmes 1921-1933 also clearly label the area as ‘Keppel Gate’ rather than ‘Clark’s Corner.’ The 1926 Manx Grand Prix programme (Manx Amateur Road Races) also describes the same area as “Keppel Gate” and also includes the “Windy Corner” in a course map (page 40) and also the written description of the course on page 41 describes this as “the Keppel” (note a slightly different spelling) and not as ‘Clark’s Corner.’ WP:V WP:PROVEIT

The race report to the 1921 Isle of Man Junior TT in the Isle of Man Examiner newspaper refers to “the Kepple” to describe the area above the ‘Keppel Cottage’ on the Keppel Mountain/ Slieau Rea mountain to distinguish it from ‘Keppel Gate’ and does not use the term ‘Clark’s Corner.’ Note the slightly different spelling in the Isle of Man Examiner report and this can be used under Wikipedia rules to support independent notability that this area was known as “the Keppel/Kepple” or ‘the Keppel with a Gate’ or ‘Keppel Gate’ and not as ‘Clark’s Corner.’ All other references do not support independent notability of the use of the term ‘Clark’s Corner.’ WP:N

G.S.Davison

As the writer and editor G.S. Davison is by far the most prolific author about the Isle of Man TT over a prolonged period of time and the repeated description of the R.O. Clark accident and ‘Clark Corner’ is ‘promotional’ and questionable WP:QUESTION. The situation has been made more difficult by plagiarism by other journalists and also by G.S.Davison trying to clarify the situation with the use of the term “above Keppel Gate.” For example, during the 1920 Junior TT the Motor Cycle magazine describes the leader Cyril Williams (riding an AJS motor-cycle) having a gearbox issue (broken chain) at “Keppel Gate” on the last lap and then having to push to the finish-line to win the race. The same description by G.S.Davsion for Cyril Williams is “above Creg-ny-Baa” and in regard to R.O.Clark it is “above Keppel Gate.” Why is it not that ‘Keppel Gate’ named in 1920 as ‘Williams Corner’ as he won the race  ? The difference between the two description would suggest that Cyril Williams stopped in the area of Keppel Gate with a broken chain and R.O.Clark has crashed near to ‘Keppel Gate’ not at ‘Keppel Gate’ which many of the other citations also suggest. The author G.S.Davison has amended the account to take into account that Keppel Gate meant in 1920 the description of the ‘Keppel Cottage’ now named ‘Kate’s Cottage’ and again this has never been known as Clark’s Corner.’

‘non-notable’ bend.

In respect to Keppel Gate, it has already been established that this area in the 1920’s included the “gate(s)” and also included the Keppel Cottage (Kate’s Cottage) and “gate.” However, as with the other editors there has been a refusal to accept evidence as these areas such as Keppel Gate, Brandywell Corner and the Windy Corner as general areas. This has been combined with writing in a commercial advertorial internet blogging style that is largely inappropriate for Wikipedia. The result has been to “contrive” to concentrating on articles with only promotional Isle of Man TT information or the course in one direction which will lead to AfD nominations due to lack of independent notability and being deleted as ‘non-notable’ bend. agljones(talk)19:14, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand any specific suggestion for a change to the article out of the above. --doncram 17:00, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Respect the BRD Process

The process of the BRD is discuss points and not use the edit summary to by-pass the BRD issues. The description of the 1967 citation in the edit summary as the "start of the steep-descent" is Original Research WP:OR as this would suggest the 1920 Clark accident occurred near to the Keppel Cottage (now known as Kate's Cottage). The "start of the steep-descent" occurs approximately 150 meters south of Keppel Gate and this would confirm that the 1967 citation does not refer to Keppel Gate (ie the 'left-hand corner' with the gate) but the left-hand bend at the "start of the steep-descent."

The issue is the same as described on the talk-page with the article with the Windy Corner and independent notability as to documented for the article WP:N. The 1967 Motor-Cycle quotation cannot support independent notability for the claim as it is a motor-cycle article and an independent source has to be found to support independent nobility (i.e. a non-Isle of Man TT, non-motor-cycle source.) The source quoted in the article is unreliable as there is no photographic evidence of "banners" being used in 1921 and corner marker boards did appear until a later date. WP:QUESTION

The area that the quotation referred too disappeared in 1922-23 when the road/track from Windy Corner to Keppel Gate was extensively rebuilt that it is not possible to locate the old corner. It is not possible to inter-change between a 'non-notable bend'and a general area to avoid problems as the over-riding issue is independent notability WP:N and the 1967 Motor-Cycle article is Original Research WP:OR which is not acceptable.

Applying the previous policy of redirecting the Windy Corner article to another list article due the non-acceptance of the issue of the description of the Windy Corner as a general area would also mean that the Keppel Gate would have also to be redirected to the same list article. However, there is a requirement by Wikipedia that all list articles have separate articles for every listing in the article. Furthermore, in respect to the list article it is again a requirement that independent notability is established for the article as it a list of 'non-notable bends' and also a citation(s) has to be provided that attributes to the "creative" contents of the list.

It is a requirement of Wikipedia that an independent citation is required to locate the exact point of the accident that the 1967 article refers too prior to the 1922-23 rebuild of Keppel Gate. WP:N

agljones(talk)18:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Very little of the above has anything to do with anything relevant here. About when descent begins, the article currently says "The left-hander in the direction of the TT course demarks the start of the steep descent off the Mountain towards the finish line in Douglas a few miles away, and the transition from moorland grazing to arable farmland at a lower altitude." The above says the sttep descent starts 150 yards after the gate, supporting the sentence in the article. --doncram 15:56, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

BRD (part 2)

The BRD process needs to be respected and not use the edit summary to by-pass this Wikipedia process or again use the edit summary to make make personal comments. The BRD process is very relevant as the 1967 Motor-Cycle article cannot support independent notability WP:N as it is from an Isle of Man TT/motor-cycle source and is Original Research WP:OR as described on the talk:pages for the Windy Corner article. It is incorrect to state from the 1967 Motor-Cycle article that the corner by Kate’s Cottage is Keppel Gate and the accident to R.O. Clark occurred on the left-hand bend on the “start of the steep descent” ‘above’ Kate’s Cottage as stated in the edit summary. In 1920, Kate’s Cottage was known as the Keppel Cottage and in 1920 the area of Keppel Gate included the gate at Keppel Cottage and the corner at ‘Keppel Gate.’ As previously stated, road-traffic operates in both directions and a singular article about about a left-hand bend cannot be sustained as it is a 'non-notable bend' has little or no encyclopaedic value and subject to an AfD nomination and the article deleted. The article is about Keppel Gate and not about Kate's Cottage and again the 1967 Motor-Cycle article and quotation has been misinterpreted. The corner at Keppel Gate does not 'demarks the start of the steep descent' as the descent starts appropriately 150m due south of Keppel Gate corner and like the Windy Corner it is a small plateau or col between two small mountain peaks. Neither is Keppel Gate the 'transition from moorland grazing to arable farmland' and this is Original Research WP:OR as arable farming is only found below Creg-ny-Baa.

Recent Publications

The publication ‘TT Milestones’ describes the accident to R.O. Clark occurred approaching the S-Bend complex at Keppel Gate corner and not on the left-hand bend at the “start of the steep descent” near to Keppel Cottage as stated in the edit summary or at Keppel Gate. However, the description in the publication TT Milestones has not fully taken into account the roadway at Keppel Gate was rebuilt by-passing a section of the old mountain road from near Keppel Cottage to the Windy Corner. It is unclear where the accident occurred and in 1922-23 this section of road ceased to exist and has no relevance to the description in the Executive summary. Further alterations during 1922-23 include the section of road from the Windy Corner to the 32nd Milestone, Brandywell, the Bungalow, the Verandah and the Mountain Mile.

The Middle Gate

The publication ‘TT Milestones’ includes a reference to a ‘middle-gate’ and stone track at Keppel Gate near to Keppel Cottage. However, again this is incorrect as the publication has not taken into account the roadway was extensively rebuilt during 1922-23 and the ‘middle-gate’ and stone mountain track is a reference to Keppel Gate, the 'left-hand corner' with a gate before the rebuilding road work occurred. The ‘Kepple’ or Keppel Gate is not just a reference to Kate’s Cottage as incorrectly interpreted in the 1967 Motor-cycle article. The ‘Keppel’ is a general area before the roadway was rebuilt in 1922/23 from Keppel Cottage, along the unmade stone mountain track including ‘Keppel Gate’ which traverses the mountainside for approximately 1.5 km and possibly as far north as Slieau Oyst Quarry near to the Windy Corner. With reference to the ‘middle-gate,’ at ‘Keppel Gate’ a further gate existed somewhere on the mountain track north of ‘Keppel Gate’ and south of the Windy Corner before the rebuilt roadway in 1922/23. The mountain land of the ‘Kepple’ or Keppel Gate is an area defined by three gates within Keppel Park and the most northerly gate was perhaps the boundary of Nobles Park at the Windy Corner and Keppel Park which stretches as far north as the Brandywell Corner. It was also a policy in the period 1911-1914 and from 1920 onwards that some gates (including the heavy stock centre-posts) such as found at Bray Hill, the Bungalow, Brandywell Corner, Keppel Gate and Creg-ny-Baa were completely removed before racing or practice commenced for the RAC Tourist Trophy Races, Isle of Man TT and Manx Amateur Road Races. In contemporary sources during the same period, I have never read of a competitor colliding with a closed gate only one instance of a competitor being slightly injured after colliding with a gate by the side of the road (it is unclear if the gate was removed for racing and placed by the side of the road). Again the 1967 Motor-Cycle citation is incorrect and this issue has little or no relevance to the issue of independent notability.

Road profiling and Landscaping.

During the period 1924-1930, further landscaping occurred between Keppel Gate and the Windy Corner on the new section of the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road which substantially changed the nature of the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. A third gate existed north of Keppel Gate after the new road section was built and may have replaced the older northern gate of 'Keppel Gate.' This third gate must have been removed before 1930 or at least before further road profiling occurred from Keppel Gate to the Windy Corner in 1933 or by the very latest before the 1935 Isle of Man TT Races. The major change occurred in 1947 with extensive road profiling and rebuilding again occurred between Keppel Gate and the Windy Corner followed again by further small-scale landscaping and road re-profiling in the period 1958-1971. The mountain roadway between Keppel Gate and the Windy Corner was again rebuilt during 1991/1992 including further landscaping at Keppel Gate in 2015. As this section of the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road has change so much since 1923, from the description of the accident to R.O. Clark this may have occurred on the mountain track adjacent to the current 5th Milestone on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road or more likely on the old stone mountain track above the current 33rd Corner which was rebuilt and by-passed in 1922-23. As the section of road has been first by-passed and then subjected to alterations the 1967 Motor-Cycle article has little or no relevance in the Executive summary and cannot support independent notability. WP:N Provide latitude and longitude ordinates for the site of the Clark accident in 1920 in respect of the 1921 version of the Isle of Man Ordnance Survey Map. WP:V WP:PROVEIT

Summary

The burden of proof lies with any Wikipedia editor that either adds or deletes information in any article. The accounts of the place of the accident to R.O. Clark are confused and contradictory. The race reports of the Isle of Man TT in the publication the Motor-Cycle 1920-1929 make no reference to ‘Clark Corner.’ The first publication of TT News in 1930 described as the “Official Organ of the ACU,” the editor G.S.Davison as a journalist that made the first published reference to ‘Clark Corner’ in 1927, only describes the 'left-hand corner' with a gate as “Keppel Gate” and no reference to ‘Clark Corner.’ The Isle of Man Weekly Times report for the June 1920 states that R.O. Clark, "....He had been cycling on a flat tyre from between Ramsey and Snaefell ! The burst of the tyre flung him heavily on his head, and but for the safety helmet he would infallibly have been killed." There is no mention of any accident at Keppel Gate and would suggest that the accident occurred near to Ramsay. The Motor-Cycle report for June 1920 also makes no reference to R.O. Clark crashing at Keppel Gate and only a reference to an accident. Again, the Bill Currie 1967 Motor-cycle reference cannot support independent notability for the article. WP:N It is also not acceptable to modify the interpretation of the 1967 quotation in a different manner to account for the rebuilt roadway in 1922/23. The ‘Clark Corner’ is a non-notable bend and should be treated as such by the current interpretation given as it is not part of the ‘Keppel Gate' article and not also part of 'Kate’s Cottage' article. Furthermore, it cannot be included in either article as there has been a refusal to accept areas such as the Bungalow, Brandywell and the Windy Corner as ‘general areas.’ This refusal has been only been used as a modus operandi to support the redirection policy to the list article now subject to a deletion nomination. This has led to articles without any consensus to either being redirection or deleted and a new consensus through either a BRD discussion of further AfD nomination cannot be obtained as the article has been redirected. Also, it cannot be transferred to the list article as ‘Clark Corner’ has no independent article as required by Wikipedia. It cannot be included in the Keppel Gate or Kate’s Cottage section of the list article as it is not part of the independent article and no citation has been given for the “creative” process in the selection of the list items in the list article as required by Wikipedia.

agljones(talk)20:24, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

• I don't follow most of that. It relates to my restoring to the article's lede the following passage which seems entirely factual to me:

In a 1967 interview with Bob Currie of Motor Cycle, former TT rider Howard R. Davies, who also manufactured HRD Motorcycles, stated that Keppel Gate was originally situated at the side of Kate's Cottage, closing-off the mountain road, and the corner now known as Keppel Gate was originally termed as Clark's Corner, named after historic TT rider R.O. Clark, where he dropped his Levis in 1920.

References

• By the way, also restored-by-me is the hidden comment "The above quotation contradicts the Wikipedia 1920 Isle of Man TT article which states - seemingly unsourced, and/or 'not in citation' - that Clark crashed at Windy Corner."
• I see no assertion above that Howard Davies said something different to Bob Currie in 1967, so I don't see what's wrong with the passage. I understand no specific editing suggestion out of the above. --doncram 01:35, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

BRD (part 3)

Again, the situation is clear it is a requirement of Wikipedia to respect the BRD process and to engage in the process fully and not use the edit summary box to by-pass this process. Also, do not make any personal comments in the edit summary box or use made-up ‘pseudo-Wikipedia’ terms. The burden of proof lies with any editor adding of removing material in any article.

1967 Motor-Cycle Magazine

It is not an issue if the quotation is 'factual' or not. The issue of independent notability of any article has to be addressed WP:N and as previously stated the 1967 Motor-Cycle article does not address this issue as it is an Isle of Man TT article / Motor-Cycle citation and is also unreliable and with issues of plagiarism. However, the Isle of Man Weekly Times newspaper of the 19th June 1920 does address the issue of independent notability WP:N. As an editor you are familiar with the issues of independent notability WP:N as you have engaged in an discussions about these issue at the talk:page of the Windy Corner article and also familiar with the same discussion about historical agricultural land use at the Windy Corner and at Keppel Gate which does not support the claim about arable farm practices in this area as described in the Executive Summary.

Why a Photo of Keppel Cottage (?)

It is not possible to declare the quotation as factual as the photo is not shown and the burden of 'proof' has not been provided. The article is about Keppel Gate and the issue of independent notability WP:N, WP:V has not been satisfied by an undisclosed unseen photo of the Keppel Cottage. The Executive Summary of the article is not 'factual' and as I mentioned previously that the citation refers to the building Kate’s Cottage which in 1920 was named as Keppel Cottage and the article is about Keppel Gate. The building has recently been sold in 2016 and still retains the official name of the Keppel Cottage. It is incorrect to state that Keppel Gate was originally situated at the side of Kate’s Cottage as it included also the current corner at Keppel Gate. Actually, the citation does not support this claim as the undisclosed photo originally published in the Motor-Cycle Magazine 1920 does not show a gate across the road. The photo shows a gate by the side of the road in front of the entrance to Keppel Cottage. Furthermore, the photo shows not a gate but a stock-post and railings in the centre or the road. This is partially confirmed by citation that it describes East Mountain Gate as a “very real gate.” However, the citation is again not entirely 'factual' as the East Mountain Gate was actually not situated “near” to the Mountain Box but was situated close to the current 28th TT milestone mark. A small “very real gate” may have existed at the 29th TT Milestone mark which is close to the Mountain Box of the stock-post and railings type shown in the photograph. The gates were opened for morning practice by marshals, officials and volunteers and contemporary newspaper sources only mention some minor problems with the first couple of practice sessions with the 1911 Isle of Man TT Races.

As discussed in the original BRD and previously that the citation is not factual as the section of road from Keppel Gate cottage to the Windy Corner was rebuilt and redeveloped in 1922-23 and the “left-hander” ceased to exist. In the edit summary it refers to the addition of the citation in respect to the 'non-notable' corner which is visible in the background of the photo situated at the “start of the steep descent” near to Keppel Cottage. This 'non-notable bend' which is now described as the site of the Clark accident in 1920 in the edit summary is situated 150 meters south from the current corner which is shown in the Keppel Gate main article photograph. The recent publication “TT Milestones” actually states that the accident to R.O. Clark occurred in 1921 and not in 1920 and states the accident occurred before the approach to the S-bend at the current Keppel Gate corner. However, the description is incorrect as the S-bend did not exist in 1920.

The ‘stolen’ post

The citation is further not factual as it describes “… sneaked-up to Keppel during the night, uprooted the post…” It does not refer to ‘Clark Corner’ or the corner is supposed to be now named;- it refers to the “….Keppel….” and the uprooted the post which refers to a type of stock post and railings in the photograph. At the time in 1920-25,the ‘Keppel’ or ‘Kepple’ referred to the area now known as Keppel Gate as confirmed by the citation. This term of the ‘Keppel’ or ‘Kepple’ can be used in the article as the citation in the Isle of Man Examiner for 1920 confirms this and can be used for independent notability. WP:N The citation is not referring to Keppel Gate as it refers to a wooden stock post as the gate at Keppel Gate in the period 1920-23 was of the cast iron centre stock-type with stock gates as found at Brandywell and the Bungalow that were removed before for racing. These cast iron centre stock post were different to the type of wooden stock post and railings as shown in the photograph. These cast iron centre stock post and gates had to be removed before racing began and as the RAC Tourist Trophy automobile races were run just a couple of weeks before the Isle of Man TT races the cast iron centre stock posts as found at Keppel Gate were removed weeks before practice commenced.

Nobles Park, Keppel Park and the Windy Corner.

The ‘post’ that was ‘stolen’ that is referred to may have been situated to a gate closer to the Windy Corner. This is partially confirmed with the restored quotation that Clark crashed at the Windy Corner as mentioned in the Isle of Man Courier newspaper in 1920. This actually may confirm that Clark may have crashed on the old stone mountain track that was by-passed in 1922-23 which ran parallel for a short distance to the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road near the current 5th Milestone marker or in the vicinity of the Slieau Oyst quarry near the Windy Corner and not at Keppel Gate. Also, in 1920 the term Windy Corner is used as general area and R.O. Clark may have crashed near the stock post and gate, the “third Keppel Gate” which was the boundary of the Nobles Park and Keppel Park (or “Keppel Gate” as a general area term) as described by the Isle of Man Courier newspaper in 1920.

Loss of Race time.

If the restoration of the 1920 Isle of Man quotation is meant to counter the 1920 Isle of Man Weekly Times quotation in the BRD discussion then an analysis of the race records of the 1920 Junior Isle of Man TT Race shows that R.O. Clark did lose time on the last lap and dropped from 2nd place to 4th position on the last lap. On corrected time in the time-trial format, R.O. Clark lost approximately 25-30 minutes to the winner of the race Cyril Williams including 10 minutes of corrected time lost as Williams stopped at Keppel Gate or Creg-ny-Baa depending on the source with a gear box problem. This would suggest that R.O. Clark did indeed ride slowly from Ramsey over the mountain at an average speed of about 25 mph on the last lap on a wheel-rim and flat tyre as described by the Isle of Man Weekly Times newspaper. The last lap by Clark was 17 minutes slower than his fastest lap on lap 1 and if the accident did take place at Keppel Gate and then why did it take Clark more than 30 minutes to ride to the finish when Williams coasted the last 3 miles in 10 minutes with a dead engine (?) A further consideration is that a full speed racing accident at Keppel Gate in 1920 would have been almost certainly been fatal or resulting in very serious injury which would not the allow the competitor to continue

Plagiarism

Despite the citation being described as ‘factual,’ it is curious that the Clark accident, the stolen ‘post’ incident and the issue of the closed gates are all stories that are found in publications that have been written by G.S.Davision. This would again would suggest that there is direct or indirect plagiarism in the citation as the person being interviewed is just reciting in an anecdotal fashion what he has read in one or more the Isle of Man TT publications by G.S.Davision. Also, in respect to plagiarism and what Wikipedia refers to circular references these issues have already been raised in respect to this article and in the Kate's Cottage article and the issue of plagiarism should now be easily understood in respect to evaluation the ‘factual’ citation as an unreliable source which does not provide independent notability. WP:N WP:QUESTION WP:NOTRELIABLE

Latitude and Longitude coordinates.

Provide the latitude and longitude coordinates of the R.O. Crash on the 1921 Isle of Man Ordnance Survey map and an independent citation for the accident.WP:V WP:PROVEIT

agljones(talk)19:53, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

A18 Snaefell Mountain Road Milestones

In regard to viability, WP:V Wikipedia states;- "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." Primary sources can include artefacts or documents such as maps. The is no distinction made to "local" sources and this has been discussed previously on the talk:page of the Windy Corner article (now redirected without any consensus to redirection or deletion.) There is no distinction made by Wikipedia to a "minor author, not a notable writer" and perhaps in future the correct use of the correct demonym is used. One of the distinct features of the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road is the use of the cast-iron Garrow milestones. The publication of theManx Milestones by Stuart Slack is the only published secondary source on the subject and the use of publication is relevant as the article relates the the common land previously owned by the Duke of Athol which includes Keppel Gate and also the rebuilt section of road from Kates Cottage to the Windy Corner in 1922/23 to 1925 including the rebuilding work in 1947 by the Isle of Man Common Lands Board.

The description of the roads on the Isle of Man have always followed the convention of following the milestones as described in this publication as starting from the old capital in Castletown or from the new capital Douglas and for the few exceptions the description is following the numbered milestones in the publication. No other objection has been made to the use of the same author in other articles using another publication by the same author. Perhaps should not be described as "minor author," as I understand the person that wrote this publication holds the lap record of the Snaefell Mountain Course / Four Inch Course on a Penny-farthing bycycle. There is also a lap record for a steam traction engine.

agljones(talk)19:32, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't understand what the above passage is about. If you want to achieve real communication, I suggest you narrow down to one point that you wish to express. Or consult separately with editors who have offered to help you communicate better, such as Oshwah(?) who closed an ANI discussion that you opened some time ago. --doncram 17:21, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

BRD (part 4)

Photos of farmland

The inclusion of a photo from the BBC - Domesday Reloaded as the supporting citation for the transition for Keppel Gate as the transition from moorland to arable farming is Original Research. WP:OR The area of Honeyhill is 1.77 km (1.1 miles) from Keppel Gate. It is not possible to determine the nature of crops of a gloomy dark photo. The definition of arable farming is that of the production of crops such as wheat, barley and oates and these cannot be seen in the photo. The area of Honeyhill is technically 'mixed' that of crops and animals such as sheep and cows and much of the area of Keppel Gate, Kate's Cottage and Creg-ny-Baa is either moorland, sheep grazing or rough pasture.

The term used in the Windy Corner article is Mountain uplands above the 200 m contour which is above Gob-ny-Geay near the 3rd milestone on the Snaefell Mountain Road. The use of Google Maps and Google Street view would confirm this with arable crops grown south of Creg-ny-Baa and next to Gob-ny Geay and also farm animals. There is 'rough pasture' as there are two large dairy farms nearby and the cultivation of silage for animal feed should not be confused with arable farming or small scale crop rotations as part of mixed farmimg soil management. The conclusion for the BRD discussion that the citation is original research WP:OR and a citation should be found for the transition. A proviso would be that photo and citation may suggest that 'Keppel Gate' is see as a general area as far south as Creg-ny-Baa which would contradict the use of the 1967 Motor-Cycle citation for independent verifiability. WP:N

Google Maps view of Keppel Gate

The analysis of Keppel Gate using Google Maps and the satellite map images suggest that some arable farming may have taken place in this place using the same interpretation methods as the BBC - Domesday Reloaded citation. The Google Maps for the area shows three depressions in the hillside which may be the previous use of a lime kiln used for acidic soils in arable farming. The Google Maps image also shows the old mountain road which was by-passed in 1922/23 crossing the hillside towards the Windy Corner. However, Keppel Gate was not the transition of the steep climb and change to arable farming as citations and comments suggest as a photo of Keppel Gate in the publication TT milestones shows the cast-iron stock fencing by the side of the road which was used extensively on the Snaefell Mountain Road until 1922/23 which only suggest pastoral animal farming/upland sheep grazing. Also used were dry-stone walls which can be found as far south as Hillberry Corner. The conclusion for the BRD discussion is that the publication TT Milestones does not suggest the transition suggested as a citation.

Gates

The issue of independent notability WP:N has not been addressed for the purposes of the BRD discussion by the use of the 1967 Motor-Cycle citation. As previously stated this citation is not 'factual' and is largely anecdotal, promotional and unreliable WP:QUESTION WP:NOTRELIABLE with unresolved issue of plagiarism. This citation is based on the description of an unseen photograph first published in 1920 of the gate at Keppel Cottage and not that of Keppel Gate.

The publication TT History (Harris) page 22 shows the gate at Keppel Gate and centre stock post and railings in 1912. The same publication on page 100-101 shows the gate at Keppel Gate the next year in 1921 and the centre stock post and railings have disappeared. The publication TT Milestones shows Keppel Gate before 1922/23 alterations with cast-iron stock fencing and a cast-iron centre stock post is seen lying on the ground next to a gate post. The Mortons publication Classic Images of the Isle of Man TT on page 13 shows Keppel Gate in 1925 with the gate removed, the road widened with a tarmacadam road surface. The Motor-Cycle Magazine in 1925 (21st June 1925 page 758 /25th June 1925 page 954) shows the repositioned Keppel Gate corner and widened road with the use of marker boards. The Motor-Cycle Magazine 1927 (23rd June 1927 page 1037) shows the gate at East Mountain Gate and is not much different from other gates.

BRD Summary

The summary for the BRD discussion is that the 1967 Motor-Cycle citation cannot not support the issue of interdependent notability WP:N for the article as it relates to an unseen photo, anecdotal evidence of a stolen gate post (unclear which post or when) which is not supported by other photographs and the issue of a 'non-notable bend.' There is no other independent evidence of the R.O. Clark accident in 1920 at this site. WP:V WP:PROVEIT The re-inclusion of the 1920 Isle of Man Examiner article confuses the issue as this perhaps relates to 1921 and a misunderstanding between Cyril Williams and Eric Williams.

The final summary for the BRD discussion is that the Broderick citation will support independent notability and the article change to reflect a general area and not a 'non-notable bend' and misleading information in a commercial blogging style or original research WP:OR be removed.

agljones(talk)10:35, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

I find it hard to understand what the above postings are getting at. Some of the above seems to be asserting that the topic of this article is not notable, but then the "BRD summary" suggests that a source (the Broderick citation) establishes notability. (By the way, I see no "Broderick" source in the current article. Perhaps a link or copy of the citation could be provided? Perhaps it should be used in some way.)

There is a quote used in the article which is undisputed as being a quote. If the quoted statement is believed to be wrong in some way, such as if it states 1920 when 1921 would be correct, and if there is a reliable source providing the correct information, then it would make sense to make some modification to the article. For example, a note (like a footnote, but not just providing a source) could be added to explain the fact that the stated 1920 should have been 1921. If that is the case.

What specific change is requested? To facilitate discussion, could just one specific change be suggested? --doncram 20:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

BRD Summary

The BRD process does not preclude the discussion of multiple issues. The BRD process does not limit to single changes only. The other issues discussed is due to the use of unreliable and "stretched" citations that do not support independent notability WP:N, issues of Original Research WP:OR and/or the use of material not supported by citations including not fully accounting for such material by using the edit summary box. WP:CITE

The Broderick quotation was introduced to the article in January 2007 to satisfy the issue of Independent notability WP:N and to explain the etymology and history of the name. The Broderick quotation has not been "stretched" and has encyclopedic value for Wikipedia. The Broderick quotation has then been moved around the article by different editors for various reasons. The quotation has then been unnecessarily been tagged as a citation rather than restoring the quotation in full.

As with the Isle of Man TT article there was a discussion that all historic racing information should be transferred to the relevant Isle of Man TT race year article. To bring this process into line with these other articles in the Isle of Man (motor-cycling) network of articles, then all historic racing information should be transferred to the relevant racing year article (including the 1921 Isle of Man Examiner quotation which actually highlight the Windy Corner and Keppel Gate as general areas.) This will avoid problems of direct or inadvertent bias, issues of independent notability WP:N, neutral point of view, issues of Original Research WP:OR single or multiple promotional commercial issues, the selective or inappropriate use of (questionable) citations or the use Wikipedia as an activity for blogging in a commercial journalistic style. These issues have been highlighted by the recent fatal accidents to competitors that occurred during the 2016 Isle of Man TT Races and at the time of writing are currently sub judice.

agljones(talk)15:39, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

The conclusion for the BRD process is that the Broderick quotation(s) are suitable for the article to satisfy Wikipedia requirements for independent notability WP:V. The Broderick quotation does not support for the issue of independent nobility or any use in the article that “Keppel Gate was “originally” termed as “Clark's Corner” as the name 'Keppel Gate' dates from at least 1851 and predates the 1920 Isle of Man TT. It is unsustainable that the article is based on an undefined, unclear, ‘non-notable’ bend at the very top a ‘steep descent’ which disappeared in 1922-23. The article will be subjected to the AfD process as a ‘non-notable bend ’ and be deleted.

agljones(talk)20:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I asked above what is the Broderick source that you are talking about. I gather that a quotation from some Broderick source was once used, and that you object to the Broderick source because in your view it does not show notability for the topic of Keppel Gate. But if it is not used, isn't that what you want? I honestly would like to understand if you have a specific suggestion for a change to this article. --doncram 17:27, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The specific suggestion for the BRD discussion for the article is that it is re-edited and re-written to include new information and erroneous information, questionable sources and Original Research WP:OP to be removed. The current format of a ‘non-notable’ bend for this article is unsustainable and will be eventually subjected to an AfD nomination and deleted. The use of the 1967 Currie citation is Original Research WP:OP as it is principally a photograph and accompanying text related to Kate’s Cottage (see talk:pages Windy Corner for issues of Original Research WP:OP and please read in full see Wikipedia rules). The inaccurate and unreliable 1993 Kershaw citation WP:RUMOUR does not verify the article WP:V as either a ‘non-notable’ “sheep gate” or ‘non-notable’ bend on the “the course” for the purpose of independent notability WP:N as required by Wikipedia. WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:POISONOUSFRUIT, WP:CHERRYPICKING

The Broderick citation from the publication Isle of Man Place Names from this edit [1] supports independent notability WP:N for the article. This Broderick citation is from a publication which is a small edited compendium for the much larger nine volume Place Names of The Isle of Man – Da Ny Manninee Dooie by the same author. There are citations from both of these Broderick publications which support independent notability WP:N for the article. The current tagged citation in the article for the Manx Notebook is actually from the publication Place Names of the Isle of Man Kneen (1970). These three citations (Broderick x 2, Kneen x1) do not support the current article that “Keppel Gate was “originally” termed as “Clark's Corner” as the name Keppel Gate dates from 1851 and is in use before the 1920 Isle of Man TT. The second Broderick citation from the publication Place Names of The Isle of Man – Da Ny Manninee Dooie as a very large survey of Isle of Man place-names surprisingly makes no mention of the use of the term ‘Clark Corner.’ The same Broderick citation supports the previous historical , general and contemporary ‘Isle of Man British-English’ use of the term “Keppel,” “Kepple” or “Keppel Gate” outside of the current inaccurate article format that states “….that Keppel Gate was originally situated at the side of Kate's Cottage, closing-off the mountain road, and the corner now known as Keppel Gate was originally termed as Clark's Corner…..” [2], WP:QUESTIONABLE,WP:RUMOUR

The conclusion for the BRD discussion is a general move is made, where appropriate, away from the ‘non-notable’ bend for articles in the Isle of Man motor-cycle network of articles. agljones(talk)11:19, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Currie & Kershaw citations

The title of the article is Keppel Gate, Isle of Man and not an article in respect to ‘Clark’s Corner.’ WP:MODERNPLACENAME The Davision citation (1933) TT Special and Currie citation (1967) The Motor Cycle do not support independent notability for the article WP:N as they are ‘saliently’ from Isle of Man motor-cycle publications and this standard is discussed with this reference [3] . The structure of the two lede paragraphs does not support the Wikipedia principal of lede sentences with the current description of a ‘non-notable bend.’ WP:LEDE, WP:BEGIN The Kershaw citation (1992) Agostini Killed my Budgie is factually incorrect and also does not support the issue of independent notability for the article. WP:N, WP:V

Hanks & Deane citations

The Currie citation (1967) The Motor Cycle is ambiguous and does not fully support the text in the two lede paragraphs or give a sufficient full encyclopaedic explanation for the article with the unsustainable description of a ‘non-notable bend.’ MOS:LEDE WP:V, WP:QUESTION The Hanks and Deane citations (1975) contain very dated and inaccurate information relative to the road rebuilding of 1991-1992, 2008 and 2015 and do not support the issue of independent notability relative to the issue of the actual site of ‘Clark’s Corner.’ WP:N

Currie & Williamson Photographs

The issue of the photography in the Currie citation (1967) The Motor Cycle article relative to the text in the article is Original Research WP:OR as discussed in the talk:pages for the Windy Corner, Isle of Man article [4] and not permitted by Wikipedia WP:N, (see these references [5], [6] and ”....Counterarguments include the existence of photos, but that's rather meaningless….” [7] ). The same issues of Original Research WP:OR apply to the BBC citation (Williamson) as photograph does not show either the historic land use patterns or the commons grazing land boundaries relative to modern intensive agricultural practices at lower altitudes. The Williamson photograph (1985) does reflect change in the land use of the Honeyhill / Conrheny area or modern agricultural land use patterns in the Creg-ny-Baa / Gob-ny-Geay / Brandish farmland. The Williamson photograph does not also show the nearby Conrhenny forestry plantation at Honeyhill or former entrance to the Crown Commons land at The Skoryn with the former mountain road to the ' Windy Corner.' MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE In comparison, the Slack citation (2003) which is a source for changes in agricultural land use and ownership / road building / road milestone is tagged “….better source|reason=....Stuart Slack is a Manx-local, minor author, not a notable writer” WP:MOS, WP:BIAS, WP:BLPTALK

Philip’s Popular Series of County Maps (c 1875)

The inclusion of the archaic form conforms with requirements that are required by Wikipedia for geographical names which adds to the encyclopaedic building process for the article. WP:PLACE Wikipedia allows the use of primary sources such as maps. WP:V. The use of archaic form is supported by the Philip’s Popular Series of County Maps (c 1875) for the Isle of Man (based on the HM Ordnance Survey map of 1870) which clearly states “Keppel Gate” next to the only building in the area (a Shepherd’s hut supported by Broderick publication) located at this position 54° 12' 38.5" N 4° 28' 34.5" W [8]. The 1924 Ordnance Survey Map also states “Keppel Gate” in the same position as the Philips County Map (c 1875).

Summary for BRD process

The conclusion or summary for the BRD process is that the article may be considered to be renamed as Keppel Gate_(Slieau Ree)_Isle of Man or a similar title to be agreed. The ambiguous Currie Citation after further clarification WP:RUMOUR, WP:QUESTIONABLE to be moved to the Origin of Name section (corrections, additions and clarification to this section were reverted by this edit [9] of the 28th November 2016 which were categorised and labelled as having Old Norse Entomology rather than Manx Gaelic as incorrectly described in the same edit summary).MOS:FORLANG The site of the Clark accident of 1920 is unclear as described in the citation. The previous position of “Keppel Gate” (the left-hand bend with a gate and the subject of the current article) in the period 1896-1922 was actually situated in a slightly different position than described in the largely misunderstood Currie citation (1967) and its description. The Currie citation (1967) The Motor Cycle is inaccurate and unsuitable for the current format of the article as the actual geographical position of Keppel Gate in 1920 (relative to the unclear Clark accident) is considerably different to the current position of Keppel Gate, the ‘....bend on TT Course....’ as described in the article. WP:N, WP:V

agljones(talk)21:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Keppel Park

agljones(talk)14:17, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

"We need references that discuss the subject – directly, in detail. And we need several references - not just one. These sources show that the subject is notable.

Not just passing mentions - that is, lists of archaic place names, directory listings, maps, house names, road names or any old thing that happens to have the name in it.".--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 16:59, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Important advice for editors

Thank you for helping to build Wikipedia. Please help us by improving this article:

Articles require significant coverage

in reliable sources

that are independent of the subject.

Significant coverage

We need references that discuss the subject – directly, in detail. And we need several references - not just one. These sources show that the subject is notable.

Not just passing mentions - that is, lists of archaic place names, directory listings, maps, house names, road names or any old thing that happens to have the name in it.

Packing-out this article with prominently-placed, multiple contradictory personal interpretations of the suggested etymology of an archaic language does not make it notable and is arguably not encyclopaedic:

Slieau Ree Manx: Mountain of Heather, Slieau Meayl Manx: bare, barren mountain, the ‘Keppel’ Old Norse: keppa-fjall (archaic: Kippal Gate) or Keppel Gate, Old Norse: keppa-fjall) "Kippal Gate, big-trunk, stock, post hill, or looked like a tree-stump...", Irish capal, Welsh ceffyl, Spanish[caballo], Old Norse: Kapel Gata ("the road to the summit"), Old Norse: Kappafjall ( "The Champion or Hero's mountain" or "Kappi's mountain")

Reliable sources
We need sources generally trusted to tell the truth. Major newspapers. Factual, widely-published books. Or other high-quality mainstream publications which are careful about fact-checking and accuracy. Not local-only newspapers with restricted circulation. Primary sources - that is self-published works by local authors, folk heroes and amateur historians aren't enough - we require secondary sources. Good sources make the text verifiable.

Rocknrollmancer (talk) 02:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)