Talk:LGBT parenting

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@Boulevard80: perhaps you could explain why you believe the content you removed to be original research or rely upon unreliable sources. To me, it seems like at least a large part of it is reliably sourced and relevant. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 19:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Much of the problem is traced to Rejedef who was banned back in 2012 but continues to evade the block by editing on Poland and LGBT topics, mostly using IPs from England.
You suggest it's England but it seems to me it's Wales. There is something wrong with your claims.-- (talk) 19:38, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
If you would like to take responsibility for some of the material Rejedef brought into the article, vetting it for balance, and checking the sources to see whether they were correctly represented, I don't think anybody can find fault with that. Binksternet (talk) 02:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I took a quick look over it, but it basically looks sound. Are there parts you found issue with? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 05:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree. the used may have been banned but all the information is sound and valid. It is also very informative and encyclopedic.-- (talk) 13:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
No, I did not analyze the Rejedef contributions, so I could not have found problems. Binksternet (talk) 05:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
if you found no errors in the content why would you delete it? And if you did find some errors why didn't you correct them?-- (talk) 13:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Polish wiki stuff[edit]

@Flyer22: I was also perplexed by the IP's claim that the material was copyrighted, since Wikipedia is under CC license, but the Homopedia source does say it's copyrighted, and at least at first glance, it doesn't seem to be taken from a CC source somewhere else. (Polish Wikipedia doesn't currently contain that info.) Are you aware of the info originating in a place other than Homopedia? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 01:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Regarding that piece, I see that it was added to Homopedia on November 26, 2014, and added to the English Wikipedia on March 2, 2015. So the English Wikipedia copied them. The reasons that I'd reverted the IP is because I wasn't sure which site had done the copying, I was planning to check later, and because wikis copy each other all the time (for example, via WP:Translation) without anyone pulling the content for a WP:Copyright violation. Flyer22 (talk) 02:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Okay, so it seems like we're on the same page? My thought process was the same as yours, I just did the history checking earlier and so didn't revert the IP who removed the content. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 02:32, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
By "same page," you mean "remove the material"? I don't feel strongly about it either way. Flyer22 (talk) 03:39, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, or at least "not revert the IP removing it." –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 03:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


@Deadline2000: I think it might be good to leave a bit more of a summary of the main adoption article here; what's left is very bare. Can you help come up with a summary of the material you removed? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 18:20, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


The article has research references in the third paragraph that I feel should be moved to the Research section below. Also I included in the research section two references. These articles, while criticized and controversial, meet the rigorous definition of empirically validated study, and remain published and uncorrected in the journals where they were published. I also have included a follow up study that revisits one of the studies and will publish contrary findings. The very nature of scholarship, research and academia promote an open-minded and transparent review of information and the readers of the article should be respected to review available information and arrive at reasoned conclusions for themselves. (talk) 14:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The lead should summarize the body of the article. This article has an extensive section on research, and there needs to be a summary of that in the lead. While references generally aren't required for the lead, they may be added if the material is likely to be challenged (see WP:CITELEAD).--Trystan (talk) 16:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Trystan: I see, you've moved the paragraph back into the lead. I want to talk about editing this paragraph, since there are well documented and very well known challenges to the research listed in the third paragraph which are an important part of the topic. As you say, any competent summary of the research should include that controversy exists, and the way it's written the reader could falsely infer that there isn't controversy when in fact there is. So I will edit the first paragraph and invite your comments. I'm new to Wiki editing so I don't know why the other research I provided has been deleted, unless it's because you hit the "undo" button and all my changes were reverted? Or do you simply not agree with listing research which opposes that in the first paragraph? In any case I would like to add back in my paragraphs in the research section because they are validly presented and scientifically appropriate. If I do this will you just delete them again? (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@roscelese: In addition after I edited the first paragraph as I mention above, and saved the work, I see that another user Roscelese deleted the research references under the statement "promotion of known bad studies". The scientific community has well-documented divisions on your opinion whether the research listed is a "bad study". The user promulgates their opinion "bad study" and deletes the citations. I will seek to have this research included in this article since it is known to be empirically validated and remains legitimate today. An opposing view does not make it a bad study, since the study in question still is held in high regard with many scientific experts who stand by the work which still is in print in it's original form. Until a time that the study is officially declared "bad", then the study citation and references should remain as part of an open-source dialog. (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Dawn Bard: And now I see that another user Dawn Bard labels my inclusion of opposing scientific research as "POV Pushing" and that my citations are not supported by the citations given. First of all, of course the citations already listed do not support opposing views, that's why they are opposing views. And this is why including the references to alternate views is very important, because it is well known in the scientific community that known that some controversy does, in fact surrounds this topic. Deleting references to opposing views (those views that are scientifically validated) is trying to marginalize a vital aspect of knowledge, which is to permit (and even encourage) a dialog between viewpoints. I will propose to include the previously deleted information in the lead and object to having opposing views labelled as POV pushing. (talk) 19:50, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

There are "well known challenges" which have been soundly refuted as the product of fourth-grade methodology. If we had a separate article on research into LGBT parenting, we might consider adding a sentence to the effect of "there are some shoddy studies which disagree with consensus but get cited a lot by right-wing organizations", but this is just an article on LGBT parenting and it's not necessary to highlight stuff we know is unscientific. There is no need to "teach the controversy" by artificially giving credence to bad science. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 20:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
I hope I am following proper protocol for indentation ( I am new to the editing procedures). I value the dialog with you. I would agree that some discussion in a separate article may be warranted, but this article, the one in question, brings forth research in the Lead, and therefore some research discussions belong exactly within this article. The research I cite is validated by the rigors of the scientific process, meets with the Wikipedia standard and cannot appropriately be marginalized just because some user (or users) has an unfavorable opinion of the study, it's methods, or it's outcomes. It's clear that the study has not been refuted, and remains viable. But, as I said earlier, I will be the first person to delete the reference if the study is officially sanctioned, but it never has been, and still is not today. True, some people don't like it and are vocal about it's criticisms, but this has not invalidated the findings. I did originally include appropriate mention of the study's criticisms and that there were other researchers who even found alternative conclusions based on the same data. I think we all want the same thing, for the LGBT parenting article to be informative, useful, and accurate. If including opposing research findings within this article are objectionable, then we should take out the third paragraph entirely and start a new article on research of LGBT parenting. But I'd rather just edit the article and not have my neutral views labelled as inappropriate just because they are opposing views. I hope we can work this out in the interests of the open-minded, nonjudgmental information sharing that makes Wikipedia such a great place. If I edit the paragraph again do you plan to delete my work again? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:55, 6 August 2015 (UTC) (talk) 21:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
No one's omitting it because they "don't like it." The journal that ran it did an audit and found that it shouldn't have been published because it was substandard. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 22:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Much negative press has been published on this 2012 research article, which is very easy to find. But I also wanted to include less-criticized 2013 article out of Canada that was deleted unceremoniously also. [1] While the audit you reference was critical of the 2012 study for sure, the latest facts you suggest are not entirely the truth. Yes there was an audit, and what is less known is that the auditor himself states "My review of the editorial processing of the Regnerus and [another's] papers revealed that there were no gross violations of editorial procedures—the papers were peer reviewed, and the ‘‘peers’’ for papers on this topic were similar to what you would expect at Social Science Research." [2]. In addition there is some compelling follow up work by 27 social scientists who interpret criticism of the article beyond just "academic" concerns,[3] thus suggesting your own colorful interpretation of the work (i.e, "fourth grade", "shoddy", "bad", "unscientific") is not the most complete nor the most accurate interpretation available, and clearly is not neutral as required. I think I have provided enough background to properly claim that the 2012 article still today has criticisms, but also has redeeming qualities, and that opinions such as you seemed to have formed do not and cannot undue all of the redeeming qualities of this relevant research. It belongs in the research section of this article so that readers can have the information and can, in turn, form their own opinions. Nothing is to be gained by silencing opposing views except more controversy. And if there's one thing LGBT parents do not need is even more controversy than already exists. I sense that we will not agree, so I would like to propose further dispute resolution as offered by the Wiki founders. In the end I should not have censorship rights to silence your views, and you should not have censorship rights to silence mine. If you can't see resolution to this matter, I would like to take this to the next level. All I'm asking for is important pieces of information to be included within an Wiki article that is relevant to that article, and even while the information has been criticized, it still possesses integrity and deserves dignity and respect24.92.249.215 (talk) 01:30, 7 August 2015 (UTC). The WP:CITELEAD standards dictate that important controversies should be included in the lede, and the 2012 study (nor more recent works) can appropriately be considered minor controversy. Other views affirm the same controversy - such as 4/29/15 article from the daughter of a LGBT parent who writes in critically about LGBT parenting [4], and a large study (again, empirically validated and meeting the standards of Wikipedia) published in January, 2015 that used sample of 207,007 children, including 512 with same-sex parents [5]. Finally I would thank the moderators of this article to permit my editing to stand, which I will of course include with respect and care for this sensitive (and controversial) subject. (talk) 02:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
The fact that you keep invoking things like "censorship" and "silencing opposing views" and repeatedly saying that readers need to hear all "sides" shows that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what kind of content Wikipedia is meant to include. Wikipedia contains content proportioned in regard to its representation in reliable sources. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 03:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
two things. First, Roscelese, I keep answering your comments and you keep bringing up new topics. Can we stay on one topic at a time? I've raised bunch of issues and you take one element and tangent it off to the side.

Second, a new proposal: I would like to edit the lead section that says "Major associations of mental health professionals in the U.S., Canada, and Australia have not identified credible empirical research that suggests otherwise." We don't have to wait for these associations to identify a reliable source for wikipedia. We just have to meet Wikipedia's rules (i.e, that the study has been peer reviewed and meets the other criteria for inclusion in an article). The Major mental health associations' opinions do not carry the weight of empirical research. In addition it's a logical fallacy that because these organizations haven't identified it, that there is none see ( let's talk about it here. There are always other means to dispute resolution but I'd like to work it out here in the spirit of consensus. If that fails we can always get other help down the line.Cityside189 (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

We don't give equal weight to poor, fringe, or flawed research. All of the suggestions so far fall into one of those categories. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:54, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
"That's just, like, your opinion, man" should not ever come up as a plausible paraphrase of something a Wikipedia editor is saying about the views of a major medical association. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 04:37, 9 August 2015 (UTC)