Talk:List of RAF aircrew in the Battle of Britain/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

I am in the process of reformatting this list to give more information about pilots without needing to create individual pages for all of them. I am using the following format for a table:

Name	Nationality	Sqn during Battle	Awards	Fate
		Sqn		Surviving Aircrew
		Sqn		Died/KIA/MIA

I will continue this process as I can. --KizzyB (talk) 16:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Pilots vs Aircrew

As stated at the top of the article page, all the people on this list have received the Battle of Britain clasp to the 1939-45 medal. I think this is important to maintain that the people on the list must have been recipients of this clasp, otherwise there is no boundries for the names on the list. On the discussion whether it is meant to be a complete list, well I have put "interesting" people on the list - noteable RAF officers, foreign nationals, people who have died recently and have an online obituary. --KizzyB (talk) 10:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks KizzyB, valid points that will ease the task somewhat! (Apologies for my late response) Cheers. --Red Sunset 08:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Footnotes!

Ummm..., these are threatening to become unweildy; one thought is to add a note in the introduction to the effect that potted biographies of selected pilots and aircrew can be found on the B of B Museum website - eg: Notes:

• All ranks given are those held during the Battle of Britain, although a higher rank may have been achieved after the Battle.
• Pilots in bold are believed to be still alive (As at 1 April 2009 – 122 men). If you are amending this list following the death of one of the pilots, please give as much information as possible in the Edit Summary box.
• (FAA) after a pilot's name denotes that he was a member of the Fleet Air Arm rather than the RAF.
• (CO) after the Squadron shows that he was Commanding Officer of that Squadron, as per the RAF Fighter Command Order of Battle on 15 September 1940.
• The awards listed include those made during the Battle of Britain and during the remainder of World War II, as well as any made post-war. A key to the awards is at the bottom of this entry.
• "KIA" shows that the pilot was Killed in action; "MIA" shows that the pilot was designated Missing in action.
• Much of the material used in this article, including the biographies of selected aircrew, can be found here: http://www.bbm.org.uk/pilots-a.htm. + under Notes indicates a biography

(for example Allcock would then look like this:)

Name	Rank	Nationality	Sqn during Battle	Awards	Notes
Allcock, Peter Owen Denys	Plt Off	British	229 Sqn		Died of wounds 17 December 1941+

(continuing with something like:)

• The Battle of Britain Then and Now Volume V (Ramsay 1989) provides a list of the aircrew Casualties from pp:261 to 297; A full list of aircrew involved in the battle can be found on pp.758, starting with Adair, H H If there is additional information relating to an individual in the text, this is given in the citations following this list.

Hopefully, there is now no need to have repeated entrys of "Ramsay 1989, p.758." etc, and fewer footnotes will be needed overall; Alexander would look like this:

Name	Rank	Nationality	Sqn during Battle	Awards	Notes
Alexander, E A	Sgt	British	236 Sqn

And Allcock would look like this

Name	Rank	Nationality	Sqn during Battle	Awards	Notes
Allcock, Peter Owen Denys	Plt Off	British	229 Sqn		Died of wounds 17 December 1941+

These are just suggestions; any other thoughts as to how or whether this could be done? Minorhistorian (talk) 23:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes; the footnotes will continue to grow, so any measure that will tidy them up or rationalise them would be beneficial. Your suggestion makes good sense. : ) Off to do a quick section now then back to the task this evening. --Red Sunset 08:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably dont need lots of footnotes if the main notes are good enough. Just a note all the names and data I have added are from the official MoD/RAF website list not one of the unofficial sites. Perhaps this should be noted. We also need to explain when the unofficial sites differ. Not sure that sortable tables have any value when we have 24 different tables. MilborneOne (talk) 22:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

After trials the footnotes were still going waaaay OT, so I have introduced further rationalisation. This is going to be a long job - if any other editors out there have RAMSAY 1989 or similar, by all means HELLLLP! :) Doing a great job Red; if your eyes go squiffy lots of strong coffee or tea might help, or make it worse. ;) Minorhistorian (talk) 01:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Aaaah! So that's where I've being going wrong – I'll kick the single malt into touch from now on! :)) Working from a laptop which is slowing me down a bit – Ooooh, what would I give for a mouse right now!!! Footnotes looking better Minor; suitable main notes help a lot, and as Milb1 points out official/unofficial differences should be noted somehow. Unto the breach once more...; well one section at least until after my prior commitments. --Red Sunset 08:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Just a thought; I assume that the entries from unofficial sites are all recipients of the Battle of Britain clasp to the 1939–45 medal?? --Red Sunset 09:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if they would have the clasp are as they must be some reason why they are not officially listed. Although I am sure the official list has mistakes we could just be adding original research! It does appear some aircrew qualified for the clasp but for some reason did not apply or get it at the time but are now included on the lists and memorials. The only way you can really tell is if you have access to the individual records which are ony open to the next of kin! MilborneOne (talk) 13:28, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmmm..., not as simple as it may seem! The only reason I mentioned it was that it states in the lead, as KizzyB reminded me above, that the list is confined to those having received the clasp, partly as a means towards limiting the list's size. Perhaps a little rewording to something like: ...and were entitled to wear the Battle of Britain Clasp with the 1939-1945 Star...? --Red Sunset 15:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Just another footnote all the KIA dates I have added are from the CWGC. MilborneOne (talk) 21:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I've finally realised that adding a citation for every KIA means that there would be at the very least 537 footnotes! To avoid this prodigeous waste of effort I have used symbols - hope this works! (Better still I hope it makes sense to the average reader!) Minorhistorian (talk) 21:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

You could have just one reference for each source rather than individual pages being referenced, we dont have more than five or six sources. Might be easier for others to understand rather than symbols. Just need some of the notes at the top being moved to footnotes at the bottom. Sorry I entered the squadrons in a different format, no problem with a change but do we have to link every mention of each squadron ? Keep up the good work everybody involved this article is lot better than it was a few weeks ago. MilborneOne (talk) 21:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that would simplify referencing somewhat. As for the formatting of multiple squadrons – not a problem Milb1 – neither method is better than the other; simply a matter of sticking to one for consistency. It occurred to me also that the squadron linking was a bit awkward, but with so many squadrons scattered throughout the tables it becomes difficult to determine which have been linked once, multiple times (and which is the first instance), or not at all! Maybe it would be better not to link any?? --Red Sunset 22:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably best to stick with the symbols at the moment until we get a better picture of how it is going. Same with the squadron linking something we can sort out when we have all the names in which is probably more important. MilborneOne (talk) 05:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm just wondering about the (Pilot) in some entries; to me this would only need to apply where the airman was on a unit operating aircraft with 2 or more crew? Specifying the position of a crew member, where possible need only apply to multi-place aircraft. Minorhistorian (talk) 23:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

< After spending time adding them in I have reverted your change before I saw your note here. How else can you tell who are pilots rather than air gunners particularly with Sgt aircrew, no way you can tell from the list who are multicrew unless you can remember all the squadrons and what they operate. So I would suggest leave the Pilot (and Air Gunner) bits I have added or list all the aircraft types and the crew positions. (Every one I have marked as Air Gunner or Pilot can been sourced so are not just a guess). Unless somebody has a better solution? MilborneOne (talk) 11:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Yup, I see your point. Minorhistorian (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Non-British personnel

Continuing with the inconsistent linking issue – similar to squadrons, non-British aircrew are also randomly linked. Every instance is linked in some sections while odd ones are linked in others. I suggest removing all links in the tables and adding a topnote on the lines of:

In addition to 2,353 British aircrew, the RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 personnel from other countries; namely:

Australia, Barbados, ... United States.

(see also: Non-British personnel in the RAF during the Battle of Britain)

Any thoughts? --Red Sunset 21:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Due to technical difficulties with the site my original answer was lost. I agree, however, with delinking non-British aircrew; linking become a hassle and, with plenty of work involved with simply accurately listing names and details, it adds to the workload. Seeing as I'm in the Bs I'll delink the N-B Ps.Minorhistorian (talk) 23:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I will do some later. MilborneOne (talk) 11:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Format of Tables

My suggest for the layout

Name	Rank during Battle	Nationality	Sqn during Battle	Awards	Fate	Notes
Yapp, D S	Plt Off	British	245 & 253 Sqns	DFC	Surviving Aircrew	Retired as Sqn Ldr Derek Sydney Yapp, moved to Yorkshire

I think that it should be Surname, Initials "Nickname" format in the Name box and if full name is known, put it in the Notes box. --KizzyB (talk) 10:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added a lot of full names and I think they should not be moved to the notes! But I dont have a problem with a separate col for rank. MilborneOne (talk) 16:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Good Move Milb1. Since Minor was the first to suggest the name/rank format, I think we have a concensus and I'll start introducing the Rank column beginning with "A" and post an {{inuse}} tag at the start of each section in turn. KizzyB's Surname, Initials "Nickname" suggestion would look tidier, but I'll leave forenames intact at Milb1's request. Maybe notes could be included in Fate for now to avoid a lot of empty boxes, but if it becomes apparent that there would be a significant number of entries a new col could easily be added later. On my way... --Red Sunset 17:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem - I will stop adding names for the moment while the format is tweaked. Just to note I change Fate to Notes when I was working in R ! MilborneOne (talk) 17:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Going cross-eyed now – A to H inclusive done; more later tomorrow. --Red Sunset 21:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Good work sunset. MilborneOne (talk) 21:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that Sunset; Looking better, and a lot of hard work! Now, for a suggestion on footnotes...read on.Minorhistorian (talk) 22:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Cheers! :D Up to and including M now tweaked plus those addressed by Milb1 – more tomorrow. As an example I've made the table for "M" sortable (enables ordering columns, and also highlights mistakes in "alphabetical" entries that can then be rectified). Any views on applying sortable tables throughout? --Red Sunset 22:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

FANTASTIC WORK on the tables and the footnotes!! --KizzyB (talk) 00:33, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Michael Lister Robinson

Somebody querried if Robinson was British. He was the son of Australian-born Roy Robinson, 1st Baron Robinson and was born in Chelsea, London in 1916. The CWGC entry has Son of Roy Lister Robinson, 1st Baron Robinson of Kielder Forest and of Adelaide, and Lady Robinson, of Mayfair, London. MilborneOne (talk) 12:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The CWGC website has him as British [1] and so do the BoB Historical Society website and the RAF website. I'd say yes... --KizzyB (talk) 00:38, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Sgt G H Bell

I can't find any reference to this chap on the BoB Historical Society website [2] or the RAF BoB website [3]. Additionally, the Sqn he's marked down as flying with (5 Flight Training Sqn) isn't part of the List of officially accredited Battle of Britain squadrons. Are we sure he was awarded the Battle of Britain Clasp? --KizzyB (talk) 01:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

• Pilot 748794 Sgt George Henry Bell died on the 26 July 1940 aged 19. The CWGC do not give a unit. If he was still training and not in an operational squadron then he was not one of the Few. MilborneOne (talk) 13:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that this chap is removed from the list as not fitting the criteria as laid out in the opening paragraph. I'm sure he made a sterling contribution to the war effort, but sadly is not one of the Few. --KizzyB (talk) 13:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Formatting

Still being a novice of sorts on Wikipedia, is there a way of making the "Notes on Awards" section in a smaller font? Just think it would look better. --KizzyB (talk) 22:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The following is a preview of the Notes section in full (of course, other elements can be made small script). Any comments? --Red Sunset 19:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Notes

• All ranks given are those held during the Battle of Britain, although a higher rank may have been achieved after the Battle.
• All individuals listed in bold are believed to be still alive (As at 1 April 2009 – 122 men). If you are amending this list following the death of one of the pilots, please give as much information as possible in the Edit Summary box.
• The awards listed include those made during the Battle of Britain and during the remainder of World War II, as well as any made post-war. A key to the awards is at the bottom of this entry.
• Much of the material used in this article, including the biographies of selected aircrew, can be found here: http://www.bbm.org.uk/pilots-a.htm. It should be noted, however, that this is not a complete list. The symbol ¶ under Notes indicates a biography is included with the entry.
• The Battle of Britain Then and Now Volume V (Ramsay 1989) is also used as a primary reference; a full list of aircrew involved in the battle, compiled from Flt Lt Holloway's research, can be found from p.758, starting with Adair, H H.
• A list of the RAF's Aircrew Casualties is given from pp:261 to 297.
• In order to limit the numbers of footnotes which would otherwise be required the symbol ‡ under "Notes" indicates several entries in the text of Ramsay 1989; the symbol † indicates that information on the circumstances under which an airman became a casualty during the battle is included in the text of the book. Where more than one crew member of a multi place aircraft was involved this is included as a cross reference under "Notes"
• In addition to 2,353 British aircrew, the RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 personnel from other countries; namely:

Australia, Barbados, Belgium, Canada, Czechoslovakia, France, Ireland, Jamaica, Newfoundland, New Zealand, Poland, Rhodesia, South Africa and the United States.

(see also: Non-British personnel in the RAF during the Battle of Britain)

Abbreviations

• (CO) after the Squadron denotes Commanding Officer of that Squadron, as per the RAF Fighter Command Order of Battle on 15 September 1940, unless otherwise indicated.
• (FAA) after a name denotes a member of the Fleet Air Arm rather than the RAF.
• "KIA" in Notes means Killed in action (dates are included where possible).
• "KIFA" in Notes means Killed in Flying Accident.
• "MIA" in Notes means Missing in action.
• "WIA" in Notes means Wounded in action leading to death which, in some cases, may have occurred months later.
• "POW" in Notes means Prisoner of War.

^{Notes on Awards}

Award	Title	Notes
AE	Air Efficiency Award	Awarded for ten years' efficient service in the Royal Auxiliary Air Force
AFC	Air Force Cross	Awarded for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy".
CB	Companion in The Order of the Bath	Awarded at the monarch's pleasure
CDeG	Croix de guerre	A military decoration of both France and Belgium, also commonly bestowed to foreign military forces allied to France and Belgium.
CdeL	Croix de la Libération	A decoration of France awarded for very meritorious conduct with the Free French Forces during World War II.
CdeLd'H	Croix de Légion d'honneur	A decoration of France awarded for excellent civil or military conduct delivered, upon official investigation.
DFC	Distinguished Flying Cross	Awarded to Royal Air Force commissioned officers and Warrant Officers for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy".
DFC*	Distinguished Flying Cross and Bar	A bar is added to the ribbon for holders of the DFC who received a second award.
DFC**	Distinguished Flying Cross and Bar	A second bar is added to the ribbon for holders of the DFC and Bar who received a third award.
DFM	Distinguished Flying Medal	Awarded to military below commissioned rank, for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy".
DSO	Distinguished Service Order	Awarded for meritorious or distinguished service by officers of the armed forces during wartime, typically in actual combat.
DSO*	Distinguished Service Order and Bar	A bar is added to the ribbon for holders of the DSO who received a second award.
GCB	Knight Grand Cross of The Order of the Bath	Awarded at the monarch's pleasure
KCVO	Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order	Awarded for personal service to the sovereign
KStJ	Knight of the Order of Saint John
MBE	Member of the Order of the British Empire	Awarded at the monarch's pleasure
MC	Military Cross	Awarded for "an act or acts of exemplary gallantry during active operations against the enemy on land to all members, of any rank".
OBE	Officer of the Order of the British Empire	Awarded at the monarch's pleasure
OStJ	Officer of the Order of Saint John
VC	Victoria Cross	Highest British military decoration, awarded for valour in the face of the enemy.
VM	Virtuti Militari	Polish award for Military virtue

Had another idea - have put the chaps (Y & Z only so far) who died during the Battle with their KIA/KIFA/MIA in bold to highlight them. --KizzyB (talk) 15:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I had used Later KIA/MIA on those who were lost after but have no problem with the bold - would colour/color be any good for those lost during the actual battle? I have added it to Y - feel free to revert if anybody thinks it a bad idea! MilborneOne (talk) 15:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Some ideas

So far this is looking okay; however some changes could be considered to the layout; 1: Is this intended to be a list of all Aircrew involved in the Battle, or is it a list of Pilots? If it is the latter, it seems somewhat unfair as other aircrew fought during the B of B; to leave out, for example the gunners of the Defiant crews would be singularly unfair. If it is to be list of all pilots and aircrew the page name should be changed accordingly

2: List ranks after the name, rather than before.

3: So far this whole list is based on information from a website; as we all know the primary references used in Wikipedia are secondary Published sources. Because of this I have so far used Ramsay 1989 as the primary reference, followed by the website. The reflist is already becoming huge and will soon be unweildy. I recommend that website references be used only where they supplement information from published sources.

'Tis a big project and it certainly needs more input. Cheers! Minorhistorian (talk) 23:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

As I have been working a lot on this in the last few weeks perhaps I can comment.

1. All the name I added are all aircrew as the official list does not tell the difference. I have anotated non-pilots in the last column (and sgt pilots) if that info is available.

2. Perhaps in a different col but it is more usual to see names as rank/name format and the other way round might look odd.

3. All the names I have added recently have come from the official RAF website which must be the primary source over the amateur sites and reference documents. Any differences from the official website should be noted rather than differences from Ramsey's version I would suggest.

Still more to come and any help appreciated. Note that among the many that I have added are air gunners and wirless ops etc so I would not object to a change to List of RAF aircrew in the Battle of Britain. MilborneOne (talk) 12:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

How many RAF and FAA aircrew actually took part in the Battle of Britain? That's the size of the task, and great kudos to those taking it on – it could take quite a while! Anyway, if I may I'd like to add my thoughts. IMHO MilborneOne's suggested title is more precise (and accurate) since the list is confined to RAF personnel and doesn't consist of pilots only, and I'm inclined to agree with Minorhistorian re listing surname first with initials, followed by a "Rank" column e.g.:

Name	Rank	Nationality	Sqn during Battle	Awards	Fate
Surname, A			Sqn		Surviving Aircrew
Surname, B.C.			Sqn		Died/KIA/MIA

I reckon this format looks neater, and makes finding a particular person a little easier as we wouldn't need to look past the rank and forename/s to find the surname. Just a suggestion! :) --Red Sunset 19:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The numbers of RAF/FAA participants have varied over the years; one figure quoted By Ramsay is 2,946, with "537 men who were killed in the battle or died later of wounds received". Plenty of work for everyone! Minorhistorian (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Just one or two more then eh?!! :D But back to the table format – I haven't looked at any of the other web links yet, but I note that The Battle of Britain Roll uses the name/rank format. I feel that this is a better table arrangement and would be prepared to start implementing the changes, but only if everyone is in agreement. A lot of hard work has already, and is still being put into this list by you guys, so if there is going to be a change it should be made sooner rather than later. I'm off for the day now, but will look back in later this evening to see what everyone thinks. Cheers for now. --Red Sunset 08:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the article to the more appropriate name. MilborneOne (talk) 16:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Reading the lead, it would seem this article intends to cover more than the RAF – and there are FAA aircrew in the list. Perhaps the most appropriate name might be "List of British, Commonwealth and Allied aircrew in the Battle of Britain" — lengthy, but you catch my drift. Askari Mark (Talk) 03:51, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Dont like British, Commonwealth and Allied somebody will allways want to add their particularly hobby horse on the end. If it was to change then I would think List of The Few would be more appropriate. MilborneOne (talk) 08:58, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I understand; I was more making an illustration than a solid suggestion. I don't have a better idea for the title, but I know that just calling it a list of RAF and including non-RAF personnel will eventually draw in an SPA, so perhaps it should be considered whether this should be an RAF-only list (with separate lists for the FAA, volunteers, etc.) or a more inclusive title is required. Cheers, Askari Mark (Talk) 20:38, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Another source

Men of the Battle of Britain, Wynn, Kenneth G., CCB Associates, 1999 (2nd, 60th anniversary, edition), ISBN 1 902 074106 (there is as you might expect also a 1st edition, i don't have the ISBN to hand though). I don't have a copy, there is one in the library at The National Archives which I have access to, I seem to remember that there was also a typescript Air Ministry publication there, possibly a copy of what was used to make the original list of those eligible for the clasp in the 60s. David Underdown (talk) 15:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Had another look at the typescript today. There's no indication of its purpose in particular, it's described as a nominal roll. It has columns for: rank at close of BoB, rank in 1961 (if applicable) - so that's presumably when it was drawn up, initials, service numbers both as airman and as officer (if applicable), date commissioned, surname, whether pilot or crew, nationality, decorations, squadrons during BoB, nicknames, and address. David Underdown (talk) 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Need confirmation that were Battle of Britain Aircrew / Details

Jarrett, Geoffrey William Jones

Spotted another one - I think this chap has been confused with JARRETT, Sgt R W E - Service No 56779. Jarrett, Sgt G W J who was KIA 3 April 1943 had Service No 27088. Is everyone happy for me to correct this change? --KizzyB (talk) 15:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

References [[4]] and [[5]] --KizzyB (talk) 15:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem with that, or any other slip that needs attending to! :) --Red Sunset 19:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Done --KizzyB (talk) 13:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Zaoral, V

Not convinced this Czech pilot was BoB aircrew. --KizzyB (talk) 15:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

He's mentioned here and here, so why do you doubt his eligibility? --Red Sunset 19:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry - I have a 7 week old baby and sometimes I'm a little sleep deprived - I think that Zadral, V is a misspelt duplicate of Zaoral, V. I think that Zadral should be removed. --KizzyB (talk) 13:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Reckon you're right; Zadral, V removed from the list. No worries; baby always takes priority! :) --Red Sunset 16:52, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

King, R / Kings, Robert Austin

King, R removed as a misspelt duplicate of Kings, R A. --KizzyB (talk) 13:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Konrad

Can't find this Polish chap anywhere?!? --KizzyB (talk) 14:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Koukal, F

Can't find a reference that he was KIA. --KizzyB (talk) 14:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

According to Ramsay Koukal baled out of his Hurricane and was admitted to hospital grievously burned 7 September 1940. So WIA

Legg, R J

Can't find any reference to him as BoB Aircrew. --KizzyB (talk) 15:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The only name I could find was Sqn Ldr R J Legg, promoted to Wing Commander in March 1940, and was made Assistant Air Attaché, Ankara that year, but the next entry in http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Legg.htm gives him as CO of RAF Northolt in May 1944, so if this is the person referred to he is not eligible. --Red Sunset 22:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Nominal roll (see below) lists P/O J Legg (later F/Lt), pilot 601 Sqn David Underdown (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Have found him on the RAF list. Table updated. --KizzyB (talk) 12:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Sgt Neer

Another one! --KizzyB (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Sgt Neer Sgt, 29 Squadron, on nominal roll. David Underdown (talk) 14:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

O'Manney, R J

Can't find any record of this chap either. --KizzyB (talk) 15:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC) Found OMMANNEY, Sgt. R. J. 742538 British. 229 Squadron. Killed February 12th 1942** and this tallies with CWGC website - believe this to be same person, will deleted O'Manney R J. --KizzyB (talk) 15:28, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Ramsay lists OMMANEY R J Sgt 229 Sqn who was sligtly wounded on 30 September and shot down an He 59 on 26 October.

Pain, John Francis

Can't find reference to this chap being KIA. --KizzyB (talk) 15:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Flt Lt J F Pain (43291) Reserve of Air Force Officers resigned his commission on 28 March 1944 - unlikely to have been KIA. MilborneOne (talk) 16:12, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Warmsley, H W

No record of this chap being BoB Aircrew. --KizzyB (talk) 11:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a misspelling of Walmsly, H W – same rank and sqn. Have amended table, and fate in line with his BoBHS entry. I can't find any online reference to your other comments above; perhaps the aswers lie in The Battle of Britain Then and Now Volume V (Ramsay 1989). --Red Sunset 21:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Sgt Tate

Can't find this chap on any lists on the web. Where did he appear from? --KizzyB (talk) 09:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a Sgt Tate (no further info other than that he was crew not pilot) listed in the official typescript list I mention below. The Wynn book was off the shelves somewhere, so I was not able to check it against that. David Underdown (talk) 13:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a Tate listed here http://www.the-battle-of-britain.co.uk/squadrons/604sqn.htm but, frustratingly no initials, let alone a name. The names Edwards, Fenton, Hatton, Hunter and White are also listed without initials. During the battle 604 Sqn was learning how to use the first AI gear - it is possible that some aircrew were posted to the unit on a temporary basis and flew (perhaps) a training sortie? C F Rawnsley mentions in his book "Night Fighter" going on a training sortie with an anonymous "Sergeant pilot" (pp.50-51) - could this be our mystery man :)?

Highlighting

I think the blue highlighting for those KIA/MIA/WIA/WIFA during the Battle is excellent. I think this should be extended further - perhaps a different colour for 1. Surviving Aircrew, 2. Those KIA/MIA/WIA/WIFA after the Battle, but during WWII and 3. Those who died after WWII. I have no preference on colours. --KizzyB (talk) 17:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Some Bs

Boyd, Adrian Hope; he is listed as a Flt Lt in Ramsay 1989, in spite of taking command of 145 Sqn on 8 August - would it be possible to find if he was promoted to Sqn Ldr or was he an acting C/O?

Canadians: A useful list of Canadian pilots can be found here: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=105008;article=13620; New Zealanders: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=105008;article=15128;

I have come across some other helpful sites, which have not been noted, but they do provide some useful information, with cross checking;

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/battle-specifics/15743-battle-britain-2.html and subsequent pages has proved to be most useful for Christian names...

http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/ww2kia.htm

http://www.martleshamheath-rollofhonour.co.uk/html/roll_of_honour.html

http://www.152hyderabad.co.uk/html/body_battle_of_britain.html

and this one: http://www.aviationmuseum.co.uk/p3518.htm

• "Ginger" Boyd - 21 June 1940 DFC citation described as an Acting Flt Lt. (and a flight commander), 20 August 1940 DFC citation bar described as Acting Flt Lt, 3 September 1940 promoted to Flt Lt , Cant find out yet when he promoted to Sqn Ldr but he was an acting Wing Commander in December 1941 when he was awarded his DSO (Acting Wing Commander Adrian Hope Boyd, DFC, (39101), Reserve of Air Force Officers (the citation says he led the wing since August 1941). MilborneOne (talk) 13:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that Milborne; on another site he is listed as being promoted to a Sqn Ldr some time after taking temporary command - again, no date listed. Another site worth a look, BTW http://www.609wrsquadron.co.uk/Archives/Photo_Galleries/Photo_Galleries.html which is part of this http://www.609wrsquadron.co.uk/index.htm. I downloaded the Biggin Hill photo file, all 113 pages! Minorhistorian (talk) 23:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Green, Jack Dawson

Please note that this person did not recieve the BoB clasp - as pointed out by Milbourne, was only 16 in 1940. CWGC link is [6]. It would appear that user 84.81.181.183 is adamant to add to the list. If you see this name added, please ensure that it is removed. I'm sure that WO Dawson did a stirling job, he just didn't fight in the BoB. --KizzyB (talk) 00:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Extra information

Not sure we need to have the service number unless we have two people with the same name, it is available from the linked bob sites. Not sure about Born and Died (Age) either perhaps a simple 1918-1941 would do we can always add age in the notes for MIA/KIAs. Not sure what an Offical Ace is either not a term I have seen before, I presume it means they are considered an Ace but I dont think that it ever had official recognition as such. Perhaps it just needs the word Ace, although it would be far more interesting to the list to known BoB Aces not Career Aces. MilborneOne (talk) 17:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

No comment after four months I will remove the extra information from Y and Z soon. MilborneOne (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Back in the cockpit and with the target in sight

Hello All! After a move from Wiltshire to Alberta Canada and surviving the first year of my son's life (sleep depreviation and teething!) and the coldest winter of my life -35 deg C isn't funny - I'm back and raring to go.

There's only a couple of months until the 70th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain and I'd like to try and get this list completed by then. I knew a few of the Few personally and sadly they're passing away pretty fast, so can I ask for your help to achieve this aim and honour these amazing men?

I'd like to dedicate my efforts and this list in the memory of Air Commodore Pete Brothers and his wonderful red socks.

Yours Aye, --KizzyB (talk) 07:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

• Welcome back your contribution and ideal is appreciated. MilborneOne (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Too big

This article is so large that I can't load it on Internet Explorer. Even if I use Firefox, the browser crashes. Please split it up into at least 3 articles ASAP.

Lamp301 (talk) 04:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Honorary Few

Just a suggestion, but I think Peter Ayerst DFC and two other instructors [if there names can be found] should be added to this list as "honourary Few" and should be listed as. During the summer of 1940 as a instructor with 7 Operational Training Unit [OTU] at Hawarden, Cheshire, during the Battle of Britain August 14th to be exact, Peter intercepted and shared in the destruction of a Heinkel 111 with two other instructors. I know he did not serve with a Operational Squadron at the time so is not eligable for the official clasp , but he did take a active operational part in the Battle of Britain. Please consider adding him to the list with honourary "Few" next to his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.33.137 (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Understood the sentiment but they were not officially recognised and to add them and list them as "Honorary Few" would be original research. MilborneOne (talk) 20:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

While looking at books I found "Fighter Pilot's Summer" by Paul Richey who it described after fighting with 1 Sqn. in the Battle of France [recorded in "Fighter Pilot"] had served in the Battle of Britain being seriously wounded, to check if this was true I swung by your official list and his name is not recorded. I was wondering if you could find if he ever offically served in the Battle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.33.137 (talk) 01:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The list is composed of men who were awarded the 'Battle of Britain Clasp' to the 1939-45 Star. Unless the person fits this category they do NOT have a place on this list. There were other squadrons flying within the time frame and in many cases the time bewteen May and Oct 1940 is referred to as having flew during the Battle of Britain. This is not meant to diminish the service given by other members of the RAF and RAAF. I hope this clarifies the situation. KizzyB (talk) 07:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

de Selys Longchamp

Sorry I am quite new here and not used to quote Wiki articles, but may I mentionned that the list of veterans pilots miss the flying lieutenant de Selys Longchamp (known for strafing the Gestapo Building, Avenue Louise, in Brussels). KIA short after. If You miss info, I can ask a book from a friend of mine, and write an abstract about him. Thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.67.126.164 (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I dont think Baron de Selys Longchamp fought in the Battle of Britain he didnt leave Belgium until mid-1940 and didnt go operational until 1941. Although with his background and exploits he may be worthy of an article but it doesnt look like he qualifies for this list. MilborneOne (talk) 17:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Jean de Sélys Longchamps's article does need a bit of attention. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)