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Notability

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Suggest adding the indicated parenthetical to the following sentence: "This is a list of notable people (as reflected by them having a wikipedia article about them) associated with San Diego State University, a California State University campus located in the United States." People with WP articles are ipso facto notable, for WP purposes. That follows what many similar lists do, and avoids needless bickering as to whether the person is notable.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:SELF, articles should avoid being self-referential for indicating that Wikipedia has designated the notability. You could consider adding hidden comments directing potential editors to consider only adding names of those to be considered notable and direct them to an instruction page about notability. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 05:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what wp:self is meant to protect against, if you read it carefully. This is not a "wiki says" reference -- it is only a recognition that a wikipedia article exists (and that, if the article is AfD'd, we will know it does not exist)--that in turn is a better marker for notability than would be having an AfD-like effort for each entry on the list, where all of the refs are argued about. That would not be manageable, obviously, and to the extent that result differed from the AfD process it would not be helpful. The entire matter would be a waste of effort as completely duplicative. This is not a novel idea in such lists -- the same approach has been used before, with apparent approval. No need to invent the wheel here by applying a guideline meant to protect against articles that say in the text "Wikipedia says ... " as in the examples in the guideline.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline does indicate not to include specific mention of Wikipedia unless necessary (unless writing about the site itself), and in this case, the lead doesn't need a warning about how the alumni/faculty's addition is based on Wikipedia notability. The fact that the sentences starts of with "notable people" should be enough of an indicator that every single alumni does not need to be listed here. We're always going to see IP additions of people that fail notability requirements, and indicating that Wikipedia has standards for determining notability is not really going to deter that. Viewing some FL alumni lists, I don't see any that use the self-reference in the lead. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 05:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, this is fairly standard practice with lists. You can find many, many of them -- simply do a search -- and has been accepted as such. The self-referential aspect is clearly meant to do something other than increase work, by requiring us to tussle over notability standards being met in two places. If you have a continued problem after checking the wide-ranging use of the approach and re-reading the guideline, I would suggest that you bring it to the appropriate noticeboard or talkpage and leave word here.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have already re-read the guideline several times already and don't see the rationale you are pushing for. Could you please point out a few of the featured lists that use this self-reference? If it's really that common, then I'd have no problem including that in the lead. I figure that if "as reflected by them having a Wikipedia article about them" was really necessary, I would have seen it before across all of the alumni (and similar) lists. Instead of directing editors in the lead (readers are the main focus here so worrying about additions shouldn't be the top priority), hidden comments that editors see as soon as they start to edit the page would provide enough of an explanation to discourage unneeded additions. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 05:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As all lists should strive to reach FL status, I don't see any examples from the query. The FL List of FC Barcelona players includes a mention, but that is for the designated notice for seeing the full list within a category (similar to a link to a dab page for similar wording). Maybe the phrasing "This is an incomplete list, which may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by expanding it with reliably sourced entries." included in several lists would be helpful as it encourages editing and stresses including information from reliable sources? --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 07:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whether a list is or is not F has nothing to do with whether it includes this criterion. I stand by what I said, for the reasons stated. Your approach would lead to needless arguing about notability. With no commensurate gain. Happy holidays.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise, I'd still stick with no Wikipedia article side note. I only mention the FLs as their leads have been adjusted to emphasize the actual content of the list rather than placing initial focus on criterion (as well as exemplifying the best of the lists we have). The suggested approach of including the parenthetical aside emphasizes what is already obvious for the vast majority of readers who visit the list. Enjoy the new year. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 07:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I should mention that I think that it is an approach that is more helpful on some lists than others. Here, where there is no dispute with the current members, it should not normally engender any significant discussion, I would have thought. Anyway, perhaps someone else will chime in here. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:37, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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