Talk:List of programmes broadcast by Zee Zindagi

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complaint about removal of content

@TheRedPenOfDoom Well I could undo your changes. But I don't see the point. You can undo the changes and then lock the page. Best of luck on your crusade I suppose. Can't see why you are so interested in a page that only a few people use and like. Manoflogan

Wikipedia doesn't specialize in subjects of interest to only a few people. That's why we have notability guidelines. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight

Excessive weight is given when we list content that hasn't even been broadcast. In addition, it serves ZERO encyclopedic value but does inapporpriately hijack Wikipedia to serve as a free advertising platform -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced date ranges for former programming

The date ranges in the former programming section are unsourced, and as such, they are at risk of being removed. I assume these are not programs that were produced by Zee Zindagi, right? That is, they're essentially reruns? My instinct would be to remove the date ranges since no real academic purpose is being served by telling people when a rerun network re-ran reruns. The fact that it is all unsourced is also problematic. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is incorrect. They have acquiring broadcast rights to air programs made in Pakistan. They may occasionally show reruns of the exisitng programming slate until the next program is ready for telecast. For the record, this also happens in United States Of America. http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/21/media/letterman-finale-dvr/ and http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2015/07/08/reruns-shrinking-during-television-typical-rerun-season/. Why is listing As far showing the list of programs goes, I believe that it is notable because it chose to broadcast programs from Pakistan. [India–Pakistan_relations]] have been fraught with tension, wars and disputes from the time the countries became independent. Indian channels and content are officially banned in Pakistan and vice versa. See Indian_soap_operas_in_Pakistan and http://www.firstpost.com/india/stop-broadcast-banned-pakistani-channels-india-delhi-hc-centre-1789341.html from Pakistani and Indian perspective respectively. Zee Zindagi is the first Indian network to broadcast content produced in Pakistan to Indian audiences. That makes it notable in itself. That is why I believe that wiki pages should be allowed to exist.

this is not a "list of programs rebroadcast by Zindagi" . The only encyclopedic value of a listing of programs is the original content produced by /for the channel. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Zee Zindagi has syndication rights to series' broadcast. The series are being shown for the FIRST TIME on Indian television. Showing it for the first time does not mean "rebroadcasting it". As far as of wiki for syndicated list of programs by Zee Zindagi having no value goes, I disagree with that premise. Indian networks are banned in Pakistan and vice versa. India–Pakistan_relations has more information about that in detail. The fact Zee Zindagi is the first Indian network to show Pakistani content makes the network notable. That is why it has its own wiki page. That means that there is no rule that disallows wikipedia users from creating a page that lists programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi. WP:Articles_for_deletion/Lists_of_programs_broadcast_by_networks does not mention that any wikipedia page that has a list of programs broadcast by a network SHOULD NOT list syndicated content. As a result, there are numerous wikipedia pages that list syndicated content broadcast by the network. Why should this wiki page not show a list of syndicated content? Manoflogan (talk) 07:32, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing notable nor encyclopedic about the regurgitation of programming that someone else created. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that it may well be your opinion. But your opinion does not have to shared by every one else. WP:COATRACK does not apply because we are not discussing any other topic. Please get that notion out of your head. This is a list of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi and nothing else. How can that violate WP:COATRACK? You object because the page displays syndicated content. So what is the issue there? There are many wiki pages that show a list of syndicated programs. I include one for your pleasure List_of_programs_broadcast_by_BET. Please don't go and try to vandalize the page(i.e. remove the content that you object to), just because you disagree with the premise of including syndicated programs on a wiki page. You are free to challenge the authenticity or the attribution on THIS page, and I will provide you with valid references including ones straight from the source. I hope that clears any questions and concerns you might have. I have to point out that you are the only editor who objects to the practice of including syndicated content. Why is that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manoflogan (talk • contribs) 05:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ManOfLogan replies to "TRPOD" and "CyphoidBomb"

I will try to answer "TRPOD"'s and "Cyphoidbomb"'s points and your point one by one. With respect to "TRPOD"'s point that listing upcoming programs serves an advertorial purpose, I disagree with his premise. Stating a show will be broadcast does not mean advertising the show. Most upcoming broadcasts are announced and mentioned by reputed media publications such as New York Times or by events such "Media Upfronts" and so on. Many sports tournaments announce in advance that a particular match will be held some time in the future and this fact is reflected on their respective wikipedia page. 2015–16_UEFA_Champions_League#Knockout_phase tells you the times and dates the matches will be held. Is this publicity? No, it is not because the published fact is backed up with solid references.

With respect to upcoming programs, I would like to point out that showing upcoming programs existed on wikipedia long before "TRPOD" came along applying "advertorial" rules on the some of the wiki pages given below. I should point out he/she may have only known about these pages, because I pointed these examples out to him on his/her talk page. These sections have been there for a long long time so far, but no one but "TRPOD" has complained about the section violating "advertising platform" rules. This list is last version of the page that existed before "TRPOD" removed "upcoming programs" for violating so called "advertising platform" rules.

I could give more examples, but you get the gist. If you look at the edit logs, no one except "TRPOD" has complained about "advertising" platform.

@CyphoidBomb: Why do you need to remove entries of programs that have been broadcast for the first time on Zee Zindagi? Yes, they are syndicated broadcasts, but the fact that they are being broadcast for the first time on Zee Zindagi. They are not reruns on Zindagi. They are first run programs. I would like that you don't delete those entries. They are notable because of aforementioned relations between India and Pakistan.

With respect to unsourced date ranges, the starting dates are announced in the cited references https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi#cite_note-3.

As far the broadcast starting date and ending date are concerned, those dates are attributable even if they are not referenced on List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi. The start and ending dates are listed and referenced in every wikipedia page of each series. Because wikipedia is a user centric and user vetted encyclopedia, we can take the information out of individual wikipedia pages on list it in a central place as I did on this wiki page. I don't believe that there is a rule that prevents me from doing that. This information is also available on their website also. So even the start and end dates are not listed, they are attributable and verified upon challenge. Therefore, I believe those dates ought to be retained. I am open to remove the exact dates and putting months and years, but it would not be my first preference. We know that there is a history of that on wikipedia. Manoflogan (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)ManOfLogan[reply]

References should be included wherever we need them. We don't expect editors to go to other pages to find out why something is on the List of programs broadcast page. The second important aspect of my concern is: how do we know when the series stopped being broadcast? Most networks don't advertise the ending of something if it's just rerun content. For first-run, original content, that's typically easier to source with television guides. We know that Seinfeld began on date A and ended on date B because those first run dates are noteworthy and can be found here for instance. But when did it begin airing in syndication on Turner Broadcasting Service (TBS)? When did it stop airing in syndication in Canada? That's much harder. I'm also confused by what's currently on the page. Meri Talaash you indicate is a premiere run series. I assume this means "first run original series"? If so, why does this series link to Dil Muhallay Ki Haveli, which originally aired on Geo TV? Is Meri Talaash an entirely new program, or is it a dub of the old program? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:10, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Cyphoidbomb:I will try to answer your questions about the shows broadcast on Zee Zindagi. Zee Zindagi's USP is that they broadcast series of finite length (about 24 episodes and done.) from Pakistan. There is no concept of seasons. Since we know the start date (cited in the references) and the number of episodes, we also know the ending date. We can also find out the dates of broadcast from additional sources. We can find out that when the first and last episode was aired from the official website (For e.g. http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/ranjish/video and http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/ranjish/video?page=2). Indian broadcast networks don't put out a press release that series X finale will be on date A like they do in USA. They post to their official website, their social media accounts, or upload videos series videos to their YouTube channel for the upcoming ones. I took the starting and ending dates from each wikipedia page and their social media accounts and listed them on this wiki page because I thought it might be helpful to have it in one place. I did not see this as an issue because these dates are attributable.

With respect to being confused on what on the page, Zee Zindagi does not dub the Pakistani programs; they have acquired syndication rights for broadcast in India. They are first general entertainment channel to broadcast Pakistani content in India. This is notable in itself, because it has never happened before in the history of India. ([[1]] and http://www.firstpost.com/india/stop-broadcast-banned-pakistani-channels-india-delhi-hc-centre-1789341.html on banning channels and content from Pakistani and Indian perspective). When I refer to premiere run on Zee Zindagi, I refer as the time it was first broadcast on Zee Zindagi. There is no need to dub the spoken language. Urdu (national language of Pakistan) and Hindi are interoperable (Hindustani_language#Hindi_and_Urdu for more details). I CAN NOT REITERATE THIS ENOUGH. Zindagi has been guilty of changing the changing the titles of the syndicated programs prior to broadcast. To use your example, the series' title during it's broadcast in Pakistan was Dil Muhallay Ki Haveli; Zee Zindagi changed it to Meri Talaash for broadcast in India. (You can find validation of this on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.227023640826334.1073741827.225241597671205/368587660003264/?type=1&comment_id=368653289996701&offset=0&total_comments=24). You will notice that the Facebook link mentions the date the show premiered in India. The names could be changed for multiple reasons.

1) Language Understandability Issues: Mirat-ul-Uroos_(TV_series) means The Bridal Mirror in Arabic, a language not understood by Indians. They changed the title to Aaina Dulhan Ka, which has exactly the same meaning in Hindi and Urdu (language common to both Pakistan and India)

2) They may want people to watch on their network, rather than watch it online on YouTube or on Amazon Prime/Netflix. But they indulge in this practice of changing names, so we link to the original wiki page with an additional note on the wiki page Dil Muhallay Ki Haveli was broadcast on Zee Zindagi as Meri Talaash.

I hope that I have been able to answer your questions. Let me know if you have any additional questions. Manoflogan (talk) 00:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)ManOfLogan[reply]

There is nothing about "guilty" - the issue is that the subject of this article did nothing but rebroadcast other's work. Hence including that is inappropriate content for this article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is no rule that wikipedia page about List Of Programs broadcast by XXX template should not allow listing of syndicated programs. We are not violating WP:COATRACK here, because we are listing programs that are being broadcast, to be broadcast or will be broadcast by Zindagi, irrespective of whether the programs are original or rebroadcast or not any other kind. Cyphoidbomb a wikipedia admin, does not seem to mind and does not think that this violates any wikipedia rule. If you feel so strongly about it, I suggest you take it up with WP:WikiProject_Television. Don't get into edit wars about this. Let me Google that for you. https://www.google.com/search?q="acquired+programs"+site%3Awikipedia.org Manoflogan (talk) 07:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some clarification to "TRPOD" edits

Regarding WP:CRYSTAL - It does not apply if there are valid references to the entries that something is about to happen in the future. I provided examples in my previous edits and comments. Regarding WP:UNDUE, we are a digital encyclopedia, what aspect of "list of programs broadcast by network XXX" gives undue preference to any entry? What exactly is your criteria of a list shows the programs broadcast by a network? There is no such preference applied to other wiki pages. I want to know if this is your subjective criteria that you think is applicable here? If yes, why is that? I don't see other editors applying the same criteria on other pages. Why should you apply the same? Regarding WP:NOTADVERT, how is this advertising if we are simply listing the names of programs previously and currently broadcast and about to be broadcast by the network with relevant and correct citations? Advertising represents a narrative from a subjective point of view. We have listed valid references of the same. There are verifiable and citable. That DOES not make them subjective. You are the only editor who seems to object on any of these points. You remove all the entries that I have made because they are "non notable" (to use your words). What is your criteria about them being "non-notable"? This is not a theory that has been disproved by critics such as "Global Warming". This is list of shows that are being broadcast by the network and have been mentioned with proper citations. You may challenge the references and I will prove that they are attributable. Stop applying criteria that only you believe are applicable to this page. I would also like to point one more thing. In your edit, you mentioned that you deleted some of the entries because they are "rebroadcast", to you use your word. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi&type=revision&diff=674105256&oldid=674096297. None of the entries I have added are rebroadcasts, they are syndicated programs broadcast for the time on Zindagi. There is a big difference. You will not find any entries in that list that show entries representing reruns. I am going to revert those edits now with appropriate citations. Manoflogan (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)ManOfLogan[reply]

Of course CRYSTAL applies. They have not yet been broadcast on the station, which is what the list purports to be. Things happen in the entertainment industry all the time where proposed projects dont actually complete as planned. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:57, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If the announced event does not happen or gets delayed or cancelled, the entry should be updated or removed. I don't disagree with that. But that does not mean that the section should be removed. It is not speculation if there is a verifiable citation.Manoflogan (talk) 08:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Of cource WP:NOTADVERT applies. In a list article the only thing that inclusion of not-yet-existing-programming can present is "HEY LOOK WHAT WE HAVE COMING UP!!!!!" - purely promotional in nature. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:07, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Associating future programming with advertising implies that the future programming provides predominantly a subjective narrative. If a person expresses an opinion and it is referenced on wikipedia without any foundation, then it should be removed. But it is not subjective statement if the entry has verifiable citations. In that case, the entry must be allowed to stay. You are free to disagree with the premise, but that does not mean others agree with you.

I would prefer that you don't go about removing "Future Programming" on this List of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi. I must point out that you have been getting into edit wars on many wikipages about "Future Programming" issue. See these edit logs for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AMC_%28TV_channel%29&action=history. As long as it has valid verifiable references, it should be allowed to stay. Each referenced entry listed in "Future programming" section represents a series scheduled to be broadcast for the first time on Zee Zindagi. There are numerous wikipedia pages with the template "List of programs broadcast by XXX" that have a section dedicated to future programs. Therefore, we can conclude it is a common practice on wikipedia built by years of consensus.Manoflogan (talk) 08:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And again, merely "scheduled" to be broadcast, which we all know how accurate "scheduled" media release dates are and that fact that such promotion of future events is serving primarily to advertise upcoming content and not providing any actual encyclopedic information.

Having a source does not make "HEY! - KEEP TUNED FOR THESE UPCOMING EVENTS!!!!" any less promotional.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:11, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia admin Cyphoidbomb has given his opinion that he does not mind the presence of Future Programming as long as there is a valid source of reference. User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom#Regarding_Upcoming_Series_on_Zee_Zindagi. I am therefore going to remove the two warnings that you inserted. He/She also mentioned that it is a standard template for television network programming. If you have any issues, you can take it up with him/her. But from now on, please refrain from adding warnings just because you object to the sections or their referenced content. In addition, please don't go about putting the warnings back again. Manoflogan (talk) 04:42, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That one person "doesnt mind" is not a policy based position. I have outlaid multiple policies which individually and particularly when read as a whole support the non inclusion. What policies is your position based on? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:21, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"TRPOD" Please be civil to other editors

Being an experienced editor does not give you the license to spout vitriol in your edit comments. There can such thing as civility on wikipedia. You have on this wiki page, and other pages used language that might be offensive to some editors. You repeatedly use such comments in your edit logs ("Hell, no"), and "because some idiots can't read". There is no need to be uncivil in your edit comments. You can point out why this content has to deleted. What is your objection to the user listing the date of the finale episode? What do you mean by "hell no" comment? If you think that this needs attribution, you can mention that in the comments. There is no need to be hostile in your commit log messages.

"TRPOD" A clarification regarding finale dates

Oh, by the way it is true that the two series have a finale on the 12 of August 2015. Two series start on August 13 (check the references of upcoming series, if you care), so two series have to air the last episode the day before. Another series ends on August 14, 2015. So we include its finale date too. You may question the sources, and I will provide the references. If you want to know how we determine the dates of the series, check my reply to "Cyphoidbomb". If you have any objections, use the talk page.

Re-Runs

We should keep a track of the re-runs of the program. We do not remember that how many times has Zindagi Gulzar Hai , Noorpur Kind Rani or Maat has been retelecasted on the channel, do you? Rockcommer (talk) 17:23, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, we should not keep track of reruns. WP:IINFO and lack of sourcing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:23, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly agree with TRPOD on this. We're already talking about a network that broadcasts reruns of content found in other regions. Logging the reruns of the reruns is ridiculous. People don't write television episode guides with continuous updates so we know how many times The Twilight Zone's "Kick the Can" episode aired across the world. Academia only cares about first run. When did "Kick the Can" first air. Only when a series has been in reruns for a notable amount of time, (like I Love Lucy, which has probably aired consistently in reruns for the last 64 years) would we ever pay that information any serious mind. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:17, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What they said :) Reruns are harder to verify. No news media covers reruns, so there is a distinct lack of sources. Social media outlets are not considered as reliable sources. Even Zindagi does not track the reruns on their website, so why should Wikipedia? Manoflogan (talk) 08:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with adding an empty header for upcoming programs with instructions in html?

There is no wikipedia rule that I am violating here. What is your objection to that? I have not included any information that can not be verified. There were just instructions here. "TRPOD", please keep in mind that there was a RFC held to discuss just that on the ANI page. Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television#Heated_Disagreements_about_Future_Programming RFC. From the RFC, you are the only editor who objected to including upcoming programming on the "List of programs broadcast by network" template wiki pages? Please don't revert any changes just because you don't agree with them. There is no wikipedia rule that states that there can not be any empty sections shown on the page, even if it looks tacky. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manoflogan (talk • contribs) 23:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1) Nothing anywhere will allow "COMING SOON" as article content. Nothing.

2) The section has completely inappropriate Title Case instead of Sentence case. There is no reason to correct those issues for something that is

This can be fixed. Will you stop objecting to the section, if I fix this?

3)WP:BEANS presenting encouragement for improper content. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:31, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Reformatting my answer to make it easier to reply. Newbie wikipedia editor here..

Regarding, Nothing anywhere will allow "COMING SOON" as article content. Nothing.

On the contrary, there are enough precedents that proves that article content that is about to "COME SOON" exist on wikipedia. Some of the examples include Star_Wars:_The_Force_Awakens, The_Angry_Birds_Movie, Vice_Principals and Angie_Tribeca. I can give you more examples, but you get the picture.

2. is fixed.

Regarding, [[WP:BEANS]] presenting encouragement for improper content

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television#RfC_-_Should_TV_network_pages_include_future_programming_lists.3F RFC decided by a majority vote, to allow listing of upcoming programs if the entry has a verifiable source. Did you read the HTML comment for the section? What part of the comment encourage editors to append improper content? Please stop removing content from wiki pages just, because you disagree with entry or section. Manoflogan (talk) 07:27, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CONSENSUS / WP:NOTDEMOCRACY Wikipedia does not decide issues by majority vote. It decides on consensus based on policy.

There are many many many "coming soon" articles in many different entertainment mediums. Xcuref1endx (talk) 10:32, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If there are, then the should be deleted, but they do not provide any validation for letting inappropriate crap spread to other areas on the encyclopedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:58, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah you are right, but what does provide validation is if there are reliable secondary sources and it being written in a NPOV style. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 00:41, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding notability and removing future programming

Firstly, we are not discriminating against one serial or another. We are merely listing all the series broadcast by the network in the premier run. Even if the entries don't have references, they can be verified upon challenge. http://www.zindagitv.in/shows contains a list of all the programs being broadcast during the original run. http://www.zindagitv.in/schedule lists the schedule of the shows being broadcast in a seven week period. All of them are therefore attributable and can be verified upon challenge. Please don't tell me that we are discriminating against one program or the other. We are not discriminating against one program or the other. We are listing all the programs that are being broadcast by Zee Zindagi. Yes, it is true that not all of them have reputable references, but they are attributable and can be verified upon challenge. That means that they should be allowed to exist on Wikipedia. This is a practice that is seen on all pages regarding programming See List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Fox or List_of_programs_broadcast_by_CBS for examples. I am going to put the changes back again. Please don't revert the changes just because you disagree with them.

Secondly, you are the only editor that is against listing of future programming on wikipedia. I strong recommend that you read Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television#RfC_discussion. I would like you to check how many wikipedia editors and admins are against your stated position. Movies and TV series that have not been broadcast have a wiki pages and are listed in the upcoming programs or filmography or discography.

If you have any issues, I strongly recommend that you take it up with Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television. India does not have a principle of dedicated TV guides, so we get the guides from different places. Once again, if you want original attribution, I suggest you look at

http://www.zindagitv.in/schedule for schedule
http://www.zindagitv.in/shows for current programs

Manoflogan (talk) 01:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Look at WP:BURDEN it is the requirement that the person who wants to restore information must provide an inline citation to a reliably published source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:29, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That is not the convention on other wiki pages. Not all current programming have references on them. See the examples if I have, unless you have edited them as well. Why should it be imposed on this wiki page? All the broadcast dates are easily attributable. For example, If you want to verify "Pyaare Afzal" premier broadcast date, you don't need look any further than this..http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/pyaare-afzal/video. The schedules are listed on http://www.zindagitv.in/schedule. Wikipedia allows primary sources to be used WP:PRIMARY. This is a primary source, so I am using it. I gave the same example to wikipedia admin Cyphoidbomb on this very talkpage and he did not seem to have a problem with it (See the history if you are not convinced). He has not commented on the suitability of the references, then why should you? I have confirmed from other experienced wikipedia editors, that you can use primary sources as a reference User_talk:Wikimandia#Stupid_question_from_a_newbie_editor_on_what_constitutes_valid_source to give you an example. The fact that primary sources can be verified and supplemented with other verifications on the verified social media accounts (Facebook/Twitter) in addition to their websites makes each reference attributable. I am going to revert your changes. Please don't go about deleting files, just because you disagree with what others have to say. You can challenge the references as you did with Jackson heights, and I will provide you a better references. Once again, you can verify the broadcast date and time of "Jackson Heights" on primary source page.. Search for "Showtime" http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/jackson-heights Manoflogan (talk) 01:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That many other pages have yet to be brought up to actual Wikipedia standards is not anywhere near a convincing position. WP:BURDEN is quite clear that the person restoring data must include an inline citation to a reliably published source. and Lists are subject to the same requirements as prose articles. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:50, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have used a combination of third party sources and primary sources as reference to prove that a series is being broadcast and that it premiered on a specific date. Why is that not acceptable to you? I have fulfilled all the requirements of WP:BURDEN. You should read WP:PRIMARY to understand what sort of primary content is acceptable. Blog sites are considered reputable sources. What gives you the authority to determine whether a sources are considered reliable or not? Is there a list of websites that are expressly considered unreliable, or do you simply use your discretion? I have provided references to both third party and primary sources, but you still insist on deleting content, just because you disagree with the source. Have you the read the "about us" section on any of the websites? Where does it mention that they are a publicity arm of a media wing? If you have proof of any unreliability, then you need to provide it. The burden of proof is on you, not me. Don't delete entries just because you disagree with them. I would also recommend that you read User:Wikimandia's entry below. You are being disruptive by editing content just because you disagree with it. Manoflogan (talk) 20:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have reinstated the entries based on wiki admin User:Wikimandia's advice and suggestion. (Read it below). I have used primary sources as proof to confirm the broadcast premier dates. I have not used the primary source to establish notability. "TheRedPenOfDoom", Please don't revert the changes just because you disagree with them. Please read WP:PRIMARY for more detail.Manoflogan (talk) 05:34, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As of date September 2, 2015, I have made the changes in accordance to the rules of WP:PRIMARY.

Additionally primary sources can be used for information like television. Not to establish notability for a subject, but for various details. There is nothing wrong with that source for the TV show. This is not a BLP. You are being disruptive by removing it. —Мандичка^YO 😜 02:27, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and attribution

Dear "TheRedPenOfDoom", please take the time to read WP:PRIMARY. I would like you to pay attention to the following text (emphasis mine). Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. We are NOT interpreting any primary source. We are using the primary source as proof that the series was premiered on a particular date on Zindagi. We are NOT interpreting anything from the primary source, therefore any usage of primary source is valid.

I also recommend that you take the time to read WP:SOCIALNETWORK. Please pay attention to the following segment, Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
it does not involve claims about third parties;
it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
the article is not based primarily on such sources.

Let me address these points one by one.

the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;

We use to social network to corroborate that a show will be broadcast on a particular date. The references do not make any claim. An example of this is Facebook post: https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.228970673964964.1073741828.225241597671205/378235002371863/ or a simple tweet: https://twitter.com/Zindagi/status/633280501055254528

Zindagi is not at all associated with this page, so this does not violate the unduly self-serving rule.

it does not involve claims about third parties;

This page is about a list of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi. We are not making claims about any other network or website.

it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;

Same point applies. We don't list any content not related to programs broadcast by Zindagi

there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;

The social media posts are about the dates and times of broadcast. The https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.228970673964964.1073741828.225241597671205/378235002371863 tells you that Noor Bano will premier on August 19 2015. You can verify the claim on the primary source or the references provided. Here is the example of the primary source http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/noor-bano and http://www.zindagitv.in/schedule, you can verify that Noor Bano is indeed broadcast at 9 pm and the show was first broadcast on 19 August. If you need today's program guide, you can look up one from Times Of India today http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tv/programmes/noor-bano/params/tvprogramme/programmeid-30000000550067847/channelid-10000000023620000/starttime-201508192100

the article is not based primarily on such sources.

We have not based on these sources. If you look at my edits in the past, you will see that I have used http://www.uniarticles.com/2015/08/noor-bano-zindagi-tv-upcoming-show-wiki.html as a source in the following edit. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programmes_broadcast_by_Zindagi_TV&type=revision&diff=679163964&oldid=679157423. You removed this edit, because it is in your terms "not reliable source". If you pay attention to the wikipedia rules, I have more than fulfilled the proof of burden by point out the various sources. You have used your judgement that my references are unreliable, even when I have pointed out primary, secondary as well as used social network to back up any entry.

On the other hand, you do not provide any proof as to why my references are not acceptable. You claim that the site is publicity arm, but you don't provide any proof. You refuse to accept the proofs and delete the entries because they are according to you UNSOURCED, which they are not.

Please pay particular attention to the following links

http://www.zindagitv.in/schedule for CURRENT schedule
http://www.zindagitv.in/shows for programs on air RIGHT NOW

Let us look at the sources and proofs. These are the entries that you have removed, because you think that they violate some invisible wikipedia policy.

Noor bano

Primary Source: http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/noor-bano: This clearly shows that Noor Bano is being broadcast from Monday to Saturday. THIS IS VERIFIABLE. I do hope that we are clear on this.
Source: We use this to provide proof that the series was premiered on a particular date. We can use many things for this. Here is my proof http://www.newstechcafe.com/2015/08/noor-bano-zindagi-tv-upcoming-show-wiki.html
Social media: https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.228970673964964.1073741828.225241597671205/378235002371863/ and https://twitter.com/Zindagi/status/633280501055254528.

Saare Mausam Tumse Hee

Primary Source: http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/saare-mausam-tumse-hee (for the time of broadcast) and http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/saare-mausam-tumse-hee/video for the premier date (look for episode 1 broadcast date)
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tv/programmes/saare-mausam-tumse-hi/params/tvprogramme/programmeid-30000000550016905/channelid-10000000023620000/starttime-201504122055 (for the current schedule) for the series and http://www.cinekhabar.in/synopsis-saare-mausam-tumse-hee-zindagi-tv/ (for the date for premier date)
Social media: https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.228970673964964.1073741828.225241597671205/336825526512811/ for the start date

Naturally Delicious

Primary Source: http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/naturally-delicious. Also look at YouTube promo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw3NsbVKduk

Rehaai

Primary Source: http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/rehaai It clearly shows that Rehaai starts on August 13 2015.
Source: http://www.newstechcafe.com/2015/08/rehaai-zindagi-tv-upcoming-show-wiki.html
Social media: https://twitter.com/Zindagi/status/631830965048840192 and https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.228970673964964.1073741828.225241597671205/376443909217639/

Ruswaiyaan

Primary Source: http://www.zindagitv.in/shows/ruswaiyaan/video/ruswaiyaan-episode-1-june-11-2015-full-episode.html. It clear shows that the show was first broadcast on June 11 2015.
Source: http://www.newstechcafe.com/2015/06/ruswaiyaan-zindagi-tv-serial-wiki.html?m=1, http://www.uniarticles.com/2015/05/ruswaiyaan-zindagi-tv-upcoming-show.html and http://www.droutinelife.com/2015/06/ruswaiyaan-pakistani-show-on-zindagi-story-star-cast-timing-schedule/
Social media: https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.228970673964964.1073741828.225241597671205/358044014390962/

Sabki Ladli Laraib

Ye Sasural Bemisaal

Yeh Phool Sa Nazuk Chehra

Primary Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fS1R1Q3IDM
Social media: https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/photos/a.229818000546898.1073741829.225241597671205/309333772595320/

Feriha (Upcoming program as of September 2, 2015)

Primary Source: http://www.zindagitv.in/promos/coming-soon-to-touch-your-hearts-feriha-only-on-zindagi.html
Source: http://www.newstechcafe.com/2015/08/feriha-zindagi-tv-upcoming-show-wiki.html
Social Media: https://www.facebook.com/ZeeZindagiTV/posts/382248451970518 (Premier date on this post).

Tanhai

I have provided all the proofs for the entries that you removed. I want to reiterate the following points:

All of my sources are attributable. Upon challenge, I can prove it that the series were broadcast on Zee Zindagi using a combination of secondary, primary and tertiary sources.
When I use primary sources, WP:PRIMARY policy clearly states that Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia; (emphasis mine). This is a list of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi. I am not violating any other policy. I am using the primary source to corroborate that a particular show is being currently broadcast and to verify premier date of the broadcast. This is not violating any policy.
When I refer to social networks, I follow the same principle I use for primary sources. I use them to corroborate that a series has indeed premiered or to verify the duration of the broadcast.

I have no desire to get into edit wars. I asked wiki admin Wikimandia for advice on how to deal with this. , User_talk:Wikimandia#Request_your_feedback_on_the_points_that_I_have_made, I want to use give you a chance to explain. I would like to include Wikimandia suggestion that he made to you in [Talk:List_of_programmes_broadcast_by_Zindagi_TV&action=submit#Regarding_notability_and_removing_future_programming]]

Additionally primary sources can be used for information like television. Not to establish notability for a subject, but for various details. There is nothing wrong with that source for the TV show. This is not a BLP. You are being disruptive by removing it. —Мандичка^YO 😜 02:27, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I wanted to give you a chance to explain, but should this continue, I 'WILL seek dispute resolution on this topic based on the advice given to me by Wikimandia. I am sure that I do not need to remind you that you have been topic banned in the past for getting into edit wars without justification. Manoflogan (talk) 00:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:RS and WP:BURDEN. You cannot just claim that some source exists somewhere. You MUST actually provide a reliably published source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have read it, but have you? Each and every reference that I have provided is verifiable and can be corroborated by other sources. Have you even read the examples that I have provided? What objections do you have with the sources that I have provided? All the provided sources been cross verified with others sources. That makes them reliably published sources. I have fulfilled the requirements of WP:RS and WP:BURDEN. Please read WP:PRIMARY and WP:SOCIALNETWORK. You will find that I have fully conformed to the rules when adding my sources. In spite of the fact that the sources are correct and verifiable, you continue to find faults with them on the grounds that they are not reliably published (to use your term). Any source that can be corroborated with other sources and the one is proven to be correct is reliable. It does not depend on your discretion as to what constitutes a reliable source. The source is not reliable because you think it is reliable, but when the content of the source are true and can be corroborated with other sources. Your opinion of what constitutes a reliable published source has no say in this matter. 02:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manoflogan (talk • contribs)

Each and every source you provided was crappy and NOT a reliable source. If there is some actually reliable source, then provide it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:34, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I want to point out that sources provided by me are proven to be reliable when they are proven to be correct upon challenge. Any sources that pass this test should be allowed to be used. That is my only concern. I don't care whether you think that provided sources are to use your words crappy. Once again I repeat, I CARE ABOUT SOURCES THAT ARE PROVEN TO RELIABLE AND CORRECT UPON CHALLENGE OR CROSS-EXAMINATION. Someone's personal opinions are never the criteria. Once again, I want you to read WP:PRIMARY and WP:SOCIALNETWORK. Primary sources are acceptable sources. I also want you to look at the talk page history. Experienced wiki admins and editors User:Cyphoidbomb and User:Wikimandia have not objected to the quality of the sources. One of them has gone so far as term you disruptive and has recommended that I refer you to WP:ANI. You are the only person who has objected to them without providing any justifications or evidences for not using them, other than using the term crappy or unreliable. Manoflogan (talk) 03:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will continue to use "crappy" and "unreliable" and remove them as inappropriate sources as long as you attempt to use http://www.newstechcafe.com/2015/08/feriha-zindagi-tv-upcoming-show-wiki.html?m=1 some guy's blog and http://www.indiantelevision.com/about-us PR firms -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:54, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding future programming on Zindagi and your concerns about rebroadcasting

When we refer to premier run on Zee Zindagi, we mean that the show is going to be broadcast on Zee Zindagi for the first time. I repeat, FIRST TIME DOES NOT MEAN REBROADCASTING . Please make sure you understand that. Zindagi is not rebroadcasting any series. They are showing the series for the first time. We have used the paradigm for listing other programs this section all this time. There is no need for you to make new rules as you along.Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television#Heated_Disagreements_about_Future_Programming allows future programming to be displayed as long as they have valid sources. We have done that. If you have an issues with criteria for including programs in that Upcoming programs section, please take it up with Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television. So, please do not get into edit wars on this page and any other page. There is many wiki pages pages that show rebroadcast programs. Let me google them for you. ''https://www.google.com/search?q="acquired+programs"+site%3Awikipedia.org''. I am going to reinstate your reverts back again. Please let us not get into any edit wars on this topic.Manoflogan (talk) 18:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not required to create multiple sections for 2 or 3 entries.

@Divy(a)95:I You have created multiple sections to categorize programs by the country of their origin. This does not make sense to create sections for 2 - 3 entries at present. There is no precedent for doing anything like this on wikipedia. See the following lists. None of them have created sections for anything less than 10 entries. Creating a separate section for Indian, American, Pakistani and Turkish content provides no value as present. When the section expands, this can be considered. But at the moment, we should go with the convention on Wikipedia.

Manoflogan (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Each of these entries has atleast a dozen entries before you can split them up. Doing something similar to 1 - 3 entries does not provide any value.

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