Talk:List of topics related to the African diaspora

Black & African (Definitions)

Notice how this article is titled "List of topics related to Black and African people." This is to make the distiction between the two. So, one does not need to be a descendant of African Peoples to be included in this article. The Austrailian Aborigines fall under certain criteria to be considered Black; as do the Negritos. Northern Africans are, by definition, African. So even if one erroneously believes that there are NO Blacks in North Africa (i.e. Egypt, Ethiopia, etc.), Northern Afrians would still be relevant to this article based on their geographical location. RemoTheDog (talk) 22:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, by the way. I am not that other editor. He (or she) must have followed my edits. Kudos to him (or her). RemoTheDog (talk) 22:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A "descendant of African peoples"; just like I suspected. You seem to be under the impression that Africa consists of exactly one race -- a black one. Kindly disabuse yourself of that notion because sub-Saharan blacks in no way belong to the same race as North Africans. FYI, there are many races in Africa, not just one, and this has always been the case. This deceptively titled article, which juxtaposes the name of a continent (via the adjective "African") that harbors many different races beside the name of a single race ("Black") allows people like you to associate absurd African American organizations and concepts like the Black Hebrew Israelites and Black supremacy besides decidedly Berber and Arab civilizations like the Almohad Caliphate that the former have no relation to whatsoever. Furthermore, Aborigines not only do not belong to the Black race, they are among the very least genetically related of all modern human populations to Blacks, a fact which makes your edits all the more absurd and laughable. Soupforone (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Your post has no relevance to the preceding post. Please focus on reasons why your edits are being reverted. RemoTheDog (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Your posts have no relevance to reality, which clearly demonstrates that neither North Africans nor Aborigines are or have ever been Black Africans. The North African Caliphates, Aboriginal rock, and so forth that you keep adding to the article have no relation whatsoever to Black Africans. They are not the product of Black African cultures and civilizations, but of racially remote peoples. Stop imposing your Afrocentric bias on the article and on Wikipedia's readership. Soupforone (talk) 16:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't until between 700 and 600BC when the Nubians were pushed down out of Egypt by the Assyrians. The Persians eventually handed over Egypt to the Greek, and the Greek to the Roman. This is when the racial make-up of Egypt began to change. Don't understand what's so hard to understand about the Ancient Egyptians being Nubian. The Norsemen didn't even get to Egypt until 800AD. RemoTheDog (talk) 18:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Who is this article about?

It looks like it's about the precolonial ethnicities of Africa and their diaspora. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

The Transhumanist 22:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Clean up

I've been cleaning up this list.

There seemed to be a big problem with inclusion-criteria. The description in the lead didn't exactly match the content.

I think I've fixed that. The lead matches the content pretty well now.

I've also rearranged the content to be more intuitive.

Though I'm not sure that the title works. Nowhere could I find a term that specifies just this particular group of people. It's one of the contexts of "African", but another context includes colonials and other immigrants.

I'm also not sure what to do with the "other related terms" section.

What else needs to be done to this list?

The Transhumanist 22:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) A lot, in the fullness of time. Lists are at their most useful when they are sortable, and this one could usefully have a timeline of the African diaspora included as well.

  I think the most helpful thing I can do is show you one of my own AfD rescues for a list. I picked it up here when it looked like this, and now it looks like this.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 23:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• Ignoring S Marshall's "look at me, look at what I've done" advice for the moment, :) , I think the point about "African" is a serious issue. Africa is made up of many ethnicities and has a long history of settlement by Indians, whites, etc. I think they either need to be included, addressed somehow, or the list needs retitling refocusing. The subtle racism (or reverse racism) or neglect, or whatever it is, in assuming that African and black are synonymous does a disservice to readers and seems to me to act to subtley promote ignorace. What about Black Africans and the African diaspora? Soemthing like that? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• What's CoM doing posting here? This isn't about food or American politics. ;)—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 06:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• I also want to add mention of the Egyptians, and the Algerians, and some Moroccons and other peoples of various ethnic backgrounds who live and are from Africa but are not black. So I reiterate my support for a clarification to the article title to List of topics related to black Africans and the black African diaspora unless someone can come up with something better. I also reiterate my sarcasm directed at S Marshall. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
• And by the way these things get complicated because there are many mixed race people. And the term "black" is itself loaded and controversial. But I think it's a legitimate topic obviously as it refers to distinct groupings that have been relevant throughout history and have numerous article subjects of interest related to them. Pigeon holing is always going to be tricky. But I don't think we can ignore cultural and political and social issues related to ethnic identity and "race". ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

New lead paragraph?

Soupforone changed the lead and headings back, but at least the order of presentation is improved. I'm not sure "Black and African people" fits the content of the list.

How's this for a lead paragraph:

This list is about the indigenous ethnicities of the African continent, and African diaspora (those who live outside of Africa but whose ancestors are indigenous to that continent). For simplicity, they will be referred to below as "Africans". The following outline is provided as an ethnological overview of these people:

Comments? The Transhumanist 23:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Should the inclusion criteria be changed to match the content?

Soupforone posted this on my talk page:

The lead is a word-for-word transcription of the article's title, so of course it is on topic. Blacks and Africans includes all blacks and all inhabitants of Africa, respectively. And this is precisely why the list is up for deletion: it is way too broad and subjective. Perhaps deletion isn't such a bad thing either. What should have been created in the first place was two separate lists: one for Africans & one for blacks. This way, there would have been no opportunity for confusion as to which refers to what ex. whether the North African caliphates are "black" or just "African". Soupforone (talk) 23:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You're editing it to be broad so that it gets deleted? That doesn't seem appropriate.

The content of the list doesn't appear to be that broad. There are black peoples that didn't originate in Africa, and I don't see them on the list. To quote a ref from Black people:

Various isolated populations in Southeast Asia sometimes classified as black include the Austronesians and Papuans, the Andamanese islanders, the Semang people of the Malay peninsula, the Aeta people of Luzon, and some other small populations of indigenous peoples.

The Transhumanist 23:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I did post that on your talk page in response to something you posted on my talk page and not here, so why are you pasting my text here? Also, you should know that Wikipedia is not a reliable source; that unsourced phrase you've produced above was the work of a wiki-editor, not a scientist writing in a reputable publication. If you were familiar with genetic data, you'd also know better than to cite Oceanian populations as "black". Genetically speaking, they are actually very much Asian and quite far removed from black Africans. Soupforone (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

What about post-colonial Africans? Should those be included? The Transhumanist 23:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The way the article currently stands, sure, why not? I mean, Afrikaners et al. are African too, aren't they? Certainly more so than Oceanians, for example, whom are neither black nor African yet were somehow included in the List for the longest time. Soupforone (talk) 23:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, even if this list survives the deletion case, it cannot survive in its current form. While there may be no ambiguity with regard to which of the two terms "black" or "African" refers to when it comes to Afrikaners, there certainly is with other topics such as the indigenous North African caliphates & sultanates. It'll have to be split up sooner or later or just outright deleted; that appears to be the consensus so far. Soupforone (talk) 23:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Then start splitting. Shouldn't take too long. The Transhumanist 00:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

No, I'll wait till the deletion case is resolved and see what the community as a whole decides. Soupforone (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there a term that means "indigenous peoples of Africa and those descended from them"? The Transhumanist 23:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

No, there isn't. I know you are trying to say that the term "African diaspora" captures all that, but it actually doesn't. This is something individual editors on Wikipedia have attempted to suggest (I'm referring specifically to some of the folks who have edited the African diaspora article), presumably so as to create some kind of connection between themselves & the African continent. The fact remains, however, that African Americans, for example, are American as their names, language, culture & passports readily attest. They are not African. To be that, they would first have to come from Africa, which they do not. Only their distant ancestors did, and consequently, the latter were by contrast African. Again, kindly stop referring to other articles that other editors have personally edited for support. Soupforone (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

New DNA findings prove that indigenous Australians of African descent. Case closed. Move on. RemoTheDog (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC).

The title doesn't appear to match the content

What should we change the title to?

The Transhumanist 23:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It's simple: either the focus of the article is shifted to black topics & all of the non-black topics are moved to another new template on African topics or the focus of the article is shifted to African topics & all of the non-African topics are moved to another new template on black topics. Either way, the net effect is the same and certainly preferable to what already exists. Soupforone (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, the title does actually match the content because the content is on blacks & Africans & all of the topics listed herein are on those same peoples. If you don't agree, kindly point out specific topics that undermine this (nothing vague, please). Soupforone (talk) 23:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

If there are no blacks that are neither Africans nor African diaspora, then what's the problem? "African people" includes them and everybody else on the list. If so, then simply rename it to "List of topics related to African people".

The Transhumanist 23:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

African Americans, Afro-Caribbeans, Afro-Brazilians, Siddis, etc. are not "African". They are the descendants of Africans. That's what's the problem. Unless of course you are arguing now that African Americans, for example, aren't really "American". Soupforone (talk) 23:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The article African people says they are "African people", because they can trace their ancestry to there. If that's not accurate, shouldn't that be part of this clean-up effort as well? See also Germans and French people. Those state that the term includes diaspora. Is Wikipedia in error in each of the "people" articles which include diaspora in the description of the people from a particular region? There are dozens of them. The Transhumanist 00:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so kindly stop referring to passages other editors have personally edited as a mark of authority. The German & French people articles pertain to specific ethnic groups, not to a continental grouping of many different ethnic groups & races as embodied in the broad term "African people". There is no such ethnic group as "African people". There certainly are, however, Germans & Frenchmen. Soupforone (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I was asking questions - cleaning up Wikipedia is our responsibility. If those articles are inaccurate, then they need to be cleaned up! The Transhumanist 01:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest separating out the African part, and making references to a separate section of Topics relating to Black History in the US, --there are enough of them. DGG (talk) 02:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Retitle

My bold page move was reverted. But unless someone plans on adding links to articles on Afrikaaners, Egyptians, African Arabs, white Africans, and other groups, the present title is misleading and inaccurate. The links in this article are about black Africans and the black African diaspora. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I wrote a lead paragraph that more accurately described the contents of this list, but it was reverted as well. The Transhumanist 03:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hahaahaha. Can I go back and vote delete? :) Oh well. But the title is pretty weird and the idea that this article is about all Africans is pretty, well, out there. Maybe DGG will help with the big push... but I think he doesn't like controversy. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The links in the article are not just about black Africans & the black diaspora, as already explained both here on this talk page & in the deletion case. This is why I reverted your page rename. Unless the purpose of it was to create the impression that decidedly North African empires such as the Almohad Caliphate, Almoravid Caliphate, Ayyubid Sultanate, Fatimid Caliphate, etc., for instance, were the product of black populations, then that was what was actually misleading. I have now removed all of the African related topics over to a new list that I've created strictly for them. I've also removed all Oceanian related topics since they have no relation to the remaining black diasporan topics, the latter of which I've renamed this list after. This way, there is no confusion as to which exact topics are "black" topics and which ones are strictly "African" ones. The list also no longer breaches WP:SALAT since its scope has now been focused to just black diasporans. Soupforone (talk) 09:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Oceanic peoples

I think the Oceania category should be removed. Every people knowledgeable about this subject should already know that the Australian Aborigines and Negrito aren't part of the African diaspora. If they are Africans, then the Europeans, Chinese, Indians, etc. are Africans as well. Jcdizon (talk) 11:50, 10 March 2013 (UTC)