Talk:Luttif Afif

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Does anyone else have a problem with this biography? To be precise, with the fact that Luttif Afif and his brothers were Jewish? (If you have a Jewish mother, you're a Jew yourself, full stop. In any case, he was not a Muslim.) This means that a Jewish terrorist led the attack on the Israeli athletes for the purpose of liberating his Jewish brothers from an Israeli jail. I don't think this makes any sense at all.

More than 30 years after these events someone must have looked into his biography a bit more deeply. I hope someone is in a position to rewrite this biography so that it makes use of secure biographical data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 04:28, February 17, 2006 (talkcontribs)

Citing sources[edit]

Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources for ways to cite sources for an article. Also see Wikipedia:Verifiability for acceptable sources to be used for an article.

The only references I can see in the article and my concerns about them are as follows:

"According to several sources, including Serge Groussard and Simon Reeve..."
Where did you find the information that Serge Groussard and Simon Reeve made this statement? In a book? Magazine? Newspaper? Online? The source of the information regarding their statements must still be cited here, even if it means repeating citations that are given at the Massacre article. Wikilink their names if there are articles about them on Wikipedia to create a link to those articles.
"(for more details see Munich Massacre)"
Other Wikipedia articles cannot be used as sources for other articles. If there is additional information that is of interest to someone reading this article, the link to the other Wikipedia article should be listed in a "See also" section at the bottom of the article.
"In Aaron Klein's recent book Striking Back.... In Serge Groussard's The Blood of Israel..."
Citations for these books need to include as much of the following information as possible: the full title of the book; the author's name (using the form last name, first name); the names of any co-authors ;the page number(s) that are being referenced; the year (or more specific date) of publication; the publisher's name; where it was published; and an ID number (preferably, use the ISBN). Much of this information is usually listed at for books that are still available for purchase (either new or used); including a link to the listing in the citation is helpful as well.

If appropriate, I will often include the names of photographers, illustrators, or someone who wrote the introduction to the book, as in "Camera, Wicked, photographer"; "Illustrator, Excellent, illustrations, or Introduction by Writer, Another). Any of the listed names that have articles on Wikipedia should be wikilinked to their articles.

You don't really need to know how to format all these references unless you want to learn how. In that case, see the links in Wikipedia:Citing sources. Otherwise, just check that you're including all the needed information and put it all in parentheses immediately following the information it is sourcing.

Also, be consistent in how the subject of the article is referred to. The switch to "Issa" in the last paragraph is confusing, as the information that Afif was also known by this name was in the first paragraph. It's much easier on the reader if he's called "Afif" or "Issa" consistently throughout the article, not both. The sentence that states what other name he is known by should be the only reference to that information unless the article goes on to explain why that name came about. Use "Afif" throughout the article if that's the name by which he is most commonly known. As you have done, it's also best to use the surname or entire name rather than a first name. A pronoun may be used instead of the actual name as long as it is clear to whom it refers. For example, you wouldn't use "he" to refer to Afif in the paragraph that also mentions Groussard and Reeve. (You didn't, it's just a good example.)

This article is on Afif and should relate more information about Afif himself rather than focusing on his role in the Munich Olympics incident. That information is already in the Munich Massacre article. Limit the information about that in this article to the information that he was the leader of the terrorist group and that he was killed at the airbase at the conclusion of that incident. If a source for his year of birth can't even be found, perhaps the sources for the remaining information need to be looked at more closely. This is a biography and should include as much verifiable biographical information as possible.

Just as some help to get started, here are the citations for the two books that are referenced in the article. The page numbers from which the information was taken are missing and should be added. Information regarding the location of the publisher or where the book was published is also missing. I've given the formal citation form for the Klein reference, but have just listed the information for the Groussardbooks using parentheses to set it off from the article text:

The books will appear in the References section like this:


Bear in mind that Wikipedia also wants to read like a paper and ink encyclopedia. Imagine, if you will, that someone has the "A" Volume but doesn't have access to the "M" Volume, which is why it is important to include the references that may have been cited elsewhere. In this hypothetical situation, the user wouldn't be able to read the Massacre article, either, but the information shouldn't be repeated here; just the information about Afif's involvement in that crisis should be included here. For the user to get more information he or she would need to search out the volume(s) containing articles listed in the "See also" section and/or find the sources that are cited. I hope this is taken in the spirit in which it is offered—as comments to help write better articles, not to make anyone "wrong".Chidom talk  17:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course I accept the critique in the spirit in which it's offered. I have made (as best I can) the corrections you have suggested.

To the best of peoples' knowledge to date, Luttif Afif is the commonly-accepted true identity for the Munich terrorist known as Issa. I stuck in the other name because this is information that has recently come to light. Reeve identified the man as being 35 years old, Klein as 27, therefore the two dates of birth with question marks next to them. The fact is, unless the terrorist's family comes forward, we will never know his true name or birth date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BassPlyr23 (talkcontribs) 23:36, 18 November 2006