Talk:MF Doom/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Alteration in opening paragraph. MF Doom, stylized in the form "MF DOOM"

Yes, Wikipedia has it own style, I believe the article title should remain with capitalization "MF Doom" but the stylization "MF DOOM" should be acknowledge in the opening paragraph. Ideally like "MF Doom, stylized in the form MF DOOM"

Prior art includes

Blk Jks

Sbtrkt

Mstrkrft

The stylization isn't dismissible, primary sources almost always use the form "MF DOOM." Secondary sources are split between the form "MF Doom" & "MF DOOM". Arguably only a slim majority use the form "MF Doom." I believe enough secondary sources use the all capital style that it warrants a direct reference.

It's worth admitting this point is contentious based on the artists direct wishes that the name be stylized "MF DOOM." While such a request is in direct conflict with Wikipedia's manual of style, the stylization is worth a mention with more than "(both stylized in all caps)." Let's just show instead of tell. Mystery01 (talk) 15:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

This is already acknowledged in the lead: "stylized in all caps". I don't see what writing it out adds in terms of clarity or information. Popcornfud (talk) 16:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

This seems like a silly thing to argue about? "MF DOOM" as it is supposed to be stylized is merely *mentioned* in the opening paragraph, it is stylized like that nowhere in the actual article which I think is incongruent with other articles about musical artists, as previously mentioned. This may seem silly but this is literally how he wished to have his name displayed, it's like this on spotify and every news site actually worth it's salt. It should be typed out in all caps at least once but it isn't, saying that it's because of wikipedia policy or that it's "contested" is very strange. ReddestVelvet (talk) 08:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

What's strange about a Wikipedia article following Wikipedia policies? Popcornfud (talk) 10:28, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Because it looks like some do and some don't and no one wants to make a 6 letter change to this article to bring it in line with other articles on the site. This article Does Not follow Wikipedia policy and saying it does is the strange part, seeing as other articles are enjoying the capitalization and the one artist who makes it extremely clear how he wants his stage name displayed isn't. My previous comment makes it clear what is wrong with this article, no one types his name in all lowercase because he specifically asks to have it typed in all caps and sources to these supposed articles that display his name incorrectly have not been produced, there is no reason to have his name displayed in all lowercase and "wikipedia policy" here is being used as a bludgeon. ReddestVelvet (talk) 21:47, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

This article does follow Wikipedia policy. The policy is MOS:ALLCAPS. Articles that don't follow this policy should be updated. Popcornfud (talk) 22:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

By writing MF Doom instead of MF DOOM one intentionally misspells the name: m=/=M that is clear to see. The referenced policy is misreferenced as it lays out later that:

“ Use the style that dominates for that person in reliable sources; for a living subject, prefer the spelling consistently used in the subject's own publications.”

1. Users show in this Talk page that all caps dominates sources
2. Whilst alive the all caps stylisation even had a song dedicated to it if we choose to disregard because he is dead then it is pedanticism to an obsequious degree

Further the distinction that all caps is to be avoided however lower caps gets a pass is an arbitrary ruling

Lastly this talking point is being combatted only by Popcornfud, ostensibly in favour of upholding a Wikipedia policy. Given the contradiction of other alibis being stylised differently, the arbitrary ruling of lower caps being permitted yet all caps being disallowed, the rejection of this by seemingly one user, and the ultimate uselessness of contesting encyclopaedic accuracy in favor of organisational policy.. is petty. Oisinvg (talk) 10:33, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

1. The all caps spelling does not "dominate" reliable sources. As has been demonstrated in previous discussions, sources differ.

2. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but MF Doom is in fact not "a living subject".

3. A quick browse of the editing history of the page, and the archived discussions in this talk page, will reveal that there are several experienced editors who have been holding this policy up. Popcornfud (talk) 11:39, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

There are several editors who have upheld this for over a decade. Popcornfud having the patience to respond each time shouldn't be confused for acting alone, but celebrated. Also, please remember to discuss the topic and not the editors, Oisinvg - your comments could be considered a personal attack and I suggest you walk them back. Cheers, JesseRafe (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. In all honesty, I understand why this page can be surprising for fans, why the caps policy is counter-intuitive and how the differing guidance for lower and uppercase names can appear contradictory.

I think there is potentially a debate to be had about that third point especially, but I wish the drive-by editors to the page would appreciate that this has to be a debate for the Wikipedia manual of style, not the MF Doom page. Popcornfud (talk) 13:46, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

> The all caps spelling does not "dominate" reliable sources

I would strongly disagree with this. DOOM literally has a song where he specifies how to spell his name - see the song All Caps from the album Madvillainy. Would an individual explaining precisely how they want their name to be spelled not be considered one of the most reliable sources?

I would suggest that a possible solution here would be to list MF DOOM under "Other names," but given that MF DOOM is his stated preferred spelling, it strikes me that it would be more accurate to use MF DOOM throughout the article, and put "MF Doom" under the "Other names" section.

I have read the FAQ and understand the reasoning that is given by the editors here. It seems not great that the style, though, leads to a result that the article is disrespectful to the stated desires of the artist. Would you suggest that the proper course of action here be to lobby for a change to the style guidelines in order to explicitly allow this exception to exist?

I will note that the MOS specifies that names of corporations be un-capitalized, but it does not specify anything similar for individuals. Additionally, the MOS specifies that all caps should not be used if the usage only has a stylistic function. I would point out that the Stylistics article which is linked to does not have a clear relationship with this specific topic, and I would additionally argue that characterizing the act of accurately spelling an individual's name as "stylistic" is tenuous at best.

I don't think that the stance against capitalizing MF DOOM's name as per his explicitly stated wishes is quite so strongly supported by the MOS as the adamance of the refusal to do so interprets it to be. 12.23.195.138 (talk) 01:28, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Would an individual explaining precisely how they want their name to be spelled not be considered one of the most reliable sources?

No. Wikipedia goes by what secondary sources say. See WP:PST. Popcornfud (talk) 10:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

But consider the secondary sources. The only instances I can find of someone using lowercase for DOOM are newspapers, who also put their own styleguides ahead of correct usage. You're ignoring every primary source and citing secondary sources that are, at the end of the day, the same source. Styleguides are supposed to be just that, a guide. They're not supposed to override correct usage. AVCwikiwormhole (talk) 04:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

You're cherry-picking sources by saying the style guides that do it the way you prefer are correct and the others are incorrect. Popcornfud (talk) 15:14, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

According to his Spotify page, the proper spelling is 'MF DOOM'. Not MF Doom. It explicitly states "Just emember ALL CAPS when you spell the man name. DOOM"

Because of this I believe that this isn't stylized, but is the actual form you are supposed to spell it. Scotishbroheim (talk) 09:12, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Please read the FAQ. Popcornfud (talk) 09:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't care much what the FAQ says it should be or what you *want* it to be, the fact of the matter is that the artist himself stated that it is "MF DOOM" and *not* "MF Doom". In a world we're the artist didn't explicitly state the correct spelling it could go either way, but MF DOOM said that the correct spelling is MF DOOM. Scotishbroheim (talk) 19:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

https://open.spotify.com/artist/2pAWfrd7WFF3XhVt9GooDL?si=J85-NgkOT7abter0MkbLeg

Scroll down to the "About" section. Literally the first thing said. Scotishbroheim (talk) 19:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

https://open.spotify.com/track/21O0XXPEWPtePt5RMY93Ob?si=PNwLrpuXRJyYoQssEeC2Dw bro even made a song about it Scotishbroheim (talk) 19:16, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

unfortunately, Mr Doom didn't get to decide how Wikipedia writes about him. Popcornfud (talk) 19:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Mr JPEGMAFIA made a song where he said, quote, "I said I'm JPEGMAFIA, all caps, no spaces". And yet, I don't see so many people fighting over arguably way more annoying capitalization JPEGMafia. Do you want to extend your "let the artist decide" approach to that article too? Any of these articles maybe? Or should it only apply to MF Doom for some reason? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 02:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

It should apply to all of the artists that capitalize their names. Your argument is essentially that Wikipedia articles always get these names wrong. 195.210.199.254 (talk) 16:54, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Your disagreement is with the Wikipedia writing style, not this article. If you want to change the manual of style, please see this page instead: What if I don't agree with something in the manual of style? Popcornfud (talk) 17:37, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

(JPEG is an acronym which is why it is capitalized, by the way) ― TUNA × 03:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• What is presently written in the lead appears to be quite consistent with the MOS, the evidence and that the threshold that might lead to a change has not been met. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:37, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

  This editor speaks my mind. ~TPW 15:24, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

• All-caps should be avoided. This is about styling, not spelling. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Following the artist's style wishes is OK for some editorial styles; I have no problem with that. But that's not WP's editorial style. We don't let individuals or organizations dictate that we render their names or trademarks in all caps. Dicklyon (talk) 03:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2023

Changing the name MF Doom, to MF DOOM. Except in cases where it may be case sensitive (like file names). Mateeguswiki (talk) 03:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see above section Cannolis (talk) 03:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2023

MF DOOM All caps when you spell his name 185.231.139.101 (talk) 20:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Please see the discussion above. -- Pinchme123 (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

DOOM ISN'T BRITISH-AMERICAN

Daniel Dumile was an American-raised man who had only lived in England for less than a year. Using the term, "British-American" to describe DOOM's ethnicity would confuse readers, while specifically calling him "British-born American" would be more clear and dissuade people and journalists from advertising him as a "British Rapper," and there's a plethora of examples of this exact phenomenon in journalism depicting British Rappers and British Hip Hop, while MF DOOM never had a musical or even long-term childhood presence in the UK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanarroy24 (talk • contribs) 16:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

He was born in Britain, held a British citizenship his whole life, and died in Britain. By what metric is he not British? 108.51.155.79 (talk) 04:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

MF Doom would probably be categorized as a British-born rapper active in the United States in my opinion or a British-born rapper alone. Dumile would not be known as a British rapper as he grew up and spent majority of his life in the United States. Dumile would definitely though not be called a British-American rapper as he never held American nationality. CriminalResearcherFinland (talk) 16:39, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

That's your opinion, as you say. But Wikipedia is based on what reliable secondary sources say. Popcornfud (talk) 16:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

It isn't an opinion, what are you on about? He can't be American since he never had citizenship. American isn't an ethnicity either so it can't be through ancestry. He is British-born but definitely isn't British-American. CriminalResearcherFinland (talk) 11:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

You wrote above: "MF Doom would probably be categorized as a British-born rapper active in the United States in my opinion". Popcornfud (talk) 12:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Okay, link a reliable secondary source that lists MF Doom as an American rapper. You can't be an American if you don't have American nationality since American isn't an ethnicity and that isn't an opinion. MF Doom isn't a Native American either so explain to me how he could be called an American without being a citizen, national or ethnically. CriminalResearcherFinland (talk) 18:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Here are some sources that describe him as British-American: BBC, BBC, NME. Popcornfud (talk) 18:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Here are some sources that don't: Euronews, PieRadio, Billboard CriminalResearcherFinland (talk) 00:25, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

And? Popcornfud (talk) 01:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

And your points are invalid as Doom wasn't an American citizen. Explain to me how Doom is American please. I find it funny that you still haven't specified what made Doom American except living in the US. Was he American-based? Yes, Did he grow up in the United States? Yes, Was he an American? No. CriminalResearcherFinland (talk) 20:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Have you read the FAQ? Popcornfud (talk) 21:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

It still doesn't make sense but if you guys have come to a consensus then it doesn't matter what I say. I myself don't understand how a person who got refused entry at the United States border can be classed as an American without having citizenship like 21 Savage isn't American either. CriminalResearcherFinland (talk) 21:26, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

The important thing to understand is that Wikipedia is based on sources, not editors' opinions. What you or I might think constitutes someone's nationality doesn't matter — we have to reflect reliable sources. That's one of the most important Wikipedia principles.

For more information, see Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. Popcornfud (talk) 21:34, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2023

Change "MF Doom" to "MF DOOM" for um the most obvious reasons ever?... 2601:196:4801:4C60:49F6:64AA:5EBE:FC6C (talk) 16:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: I mean just read every post on this talk page. Tuna^VeniVidi_Vici 16:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Also read the FAQ at the top (though most people probably don't). Liu1126 (talk) 13:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2024

Relatives : Ashlyn Thompson Dumile Samuel ohanlon (talk) 21:01, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 21:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

All Caps by Madvillian 1:15, DOOM is on the mic, sense y’all clearly aren’t fans 76.25.36.224 (talk) 12:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2024

change the musical career origin location to Long Beach, NY, rather than just Long Island. This is where KMD was formed, which is where MF DOOM's musical career began. Orasoupas (talk) 23:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done LoganP25 (talk) 21:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Issue with American-British as a nationality

If he was born in Britain, died in Britain, never gained citizenship in America, and had no Ancestral/parental links to the USA, why call him American? He did grow up and live in the US, but surely this could be explained in the summary, instead of immediately putting American-British, to then be explaining that that is false.

You could change the paragraph to say “was a british rapper and record producer who grew up and mainly lived in the USA”.

I’m not an avid wikipedia user, so it’s possible i could be wrong, but i feel like this is just blatantly wrong. Even Trinidadian-Zimbabwean rapper is more correct than the current. AbsoluteMadness (talk) 01:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ at the top of this talk page. Popcornfud (talk) 03:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

His parents lived in the US he was only born in the UK because his mother was pregnant upon travel. He had ancestral links to the US, lived here the majority of his life, and was raised in NYC. 108.52.56.66 (talk) 16:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Criedley (talk) 07:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

MF DOOM's name should be stylized correctly

Wikipedia's guidelines about this are clear, his stage name should be depicted in ALL CAPS as per his own request and how he is most commonly referred to. If you don't agree with that then why does the article for Spam (food) say "(stylized as SPAM)" when MF DOOM's article does not? If it is truly wikipedia policy and not pedantry then the SPAM article must also be changed or the MF DOOM article must be appended with "(stylized as MF DOOM)" at the very least. It is not right to fully deny MF DOOM correct display of his stage name, why does spam get that respect and a (former) living breathing person does not? Either change that article or this one. ReddestVelvet (talk) 16:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The lead sentence already says the name is "stylized in all caps". Popcornfud (talk) 18:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this 100%. This is Wikipedia's policy—why is the article source for the introduction section commented with "Do not change to all caps - file is case sensitive"? This is extremely vague. Is this referring to the potential for broken redirects to this article? If so, why not simply query all redirects to this page and change the case of them to reflect the CORRECT styling. If there is no objection to this then that would suffice for consensus I think, and I will go ahead and perform that. Im also going to look at revision history and see if whoever commented on that can be PM'ed for a clearer explanation. Criedley (talk) 06:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The comment about the file being case-sensitive is referring to the infobox file MF Doom - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg. If you change it to MF DOOM - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg (uppercase) then the image won't load.

The lead sentence already says the name is stylized in all caps. That's sufficient. We don't need to write MF DOOM in all caps to demonstrate what we mean by all caps. Popcornfud (talk) 08:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

... And in fact, thinking about it more, the claim that the name is stylized in all caps isn't sourced or mentioned in the article, which leads me to suspect we shouldn't even include that. Popcornfud (talk) 08:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

It is a fact that his name is stylized in all caps, it is even expressly stated in his instagram bio.

Source: https://www.instagram.com/mfdoom?igsh=MTAxbGV2Z2FjbXox

The image issue can be easily fixed. Is there any other reason you think it should be in all caps?

Criedley (talk) 09:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Please, lets not to revert evidence-based improvements to this article. It is pretty obvious that there is a consensus on this discussion page regarding how his name should be styled. Edit warring doesn't help. Criedley (talk) 09:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Why does the image filename matter? Popcornfud (talk) 09:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Im not sure what you are asking by that question, could you reword it? In your previous comment you said the image wouldn't load if the styling was corrected, because of the image filename. If you're asking me why the filename matters, I have no idea. I also do not see how the content of an article could affect an image file, could you elaborate on that? Maybe I'm missing something. Criedley (talk) 09:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You wrote "The image issue can be easily fixed". What issue are you talking about and why does it need to be fixed? Popcornfud (talk) 09:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I am referring to the reply you posted in this thread at 08:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC), where you stated:

"The comment about the file being case-sensitive is referring to the infobox file MF Doom - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg. If you change it to MF DOOM - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg (uppercase) then the image won't load."

Thats the issue I am referring to and if it is an actually issue it needs to be fixed so that "MF Doom" can he corrected to "MF DOOM", because:

•that is how it is de facto stylized

•that is how the subject of the article himself stylizes it, and most importantly:

•that was the consensus reached in this talk page Criedley (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain why SPAM is *actually* stylized in all caps while MF DOOM's after merely says it should be but doesn't actually do it? Could you also explain why you fight so hard about this every single time it's brought up? There's a mountain of evidence that proves his name should be stylized in all caps and nearly no evidence that it shouldn't be and yet you are actually trying to argue that the article shouldn't even say *that* which i find absolutely ridiculous, I think you are arguing in bad faith and users who do not respect his legacy should not be allowed to edit his page because they're mishandling it, so much so that i think it may be on purpose. ReddestVelvet (talk) 10:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree and I think a third party should assist in this. Criedley (talk) 10:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

@Popcornfud: Are you aware of Wikipedia's edit warring policy? Criedley (talk) 10:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Criedley (talk) 10:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Lets get back to the central topic of the dispute which is whether MF DOOM should be stylized in all caps. The infobox image doesn't really matter, I thought that was your reasoning for reverting the edits that corrected the styling of "MF DOOM". If something is stylized a certain way, then that is how it should be actually stylized. This is standard across Wikipedia and I don't really understand why those corrections were flippantly reverted. Criedley (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2024

i just wanna change anything titled as Doom to DOOM Vanhutenmilhouse1 (talk) 17:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Per the MOS it's still not going to be changed to DOOM, please see many of the other messages on the talk page. Tuna^VeniVidi_Vici 17:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I believe you may be misinterpreting the MOS. See: MOS:BIOEXCEPT Criedley (talk) 14:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

MF DOOM wasn't born on July 13

He was actually born on January 9, 1971. There might be confusion because MF DOOM often wore a mask inspired by the Marvel Comics character Doctor Doom, who shares a birthdate of July 13. However, his actual birthdate is January 9. 93.44.121.205 (talk) 09:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You might be correct, but Wikipedia is written based on what reliable sources say. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 15:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)