Talk:Man's Not Hot
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Fair use rationale for File:Man's Not Hot Artwork.png
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-- Marchjuly (talk) 05:07, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Not a grime song
[edit]Mans not hot is not a grime song,
this is a grime song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQKWnvtg6c
Mans Not Hot is clearly a parody of UK drill like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teFIcwOMCUg
UK drill is influenced by the Chicago music scene drill which is more similar to American trap music and gangster rap while Grime takes influence from UK garage, drum and bass, Jungle, dancehall and 2 step
Just because there is a British guy rapping it doesn't make it grime
Come on guys its offensive to me considering I've been doing this kind of music for 4 years at college, I know the difference — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.170.81 (talk) 22:45, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed. The word grime needs to be taken out of this article completely. It's just misleading readers in what's already a minefield of a topic. The original song ("Let's Lurk") was described by The FADER as "UK rap ... with a distinct Chicago influence", MTV as "UK rap" and the song's co-producer Mazza as a drill song. These are three reliable sources when it comes to categorising UK underground music, and to use a US gossip site as the sole source for calling it a 'grime' song is irresponsible and damaging to the black British music community. --ItsLuke (contribs) 15:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
It honestly doesn't matter what you think, there are SEVERAL sources for grime: https://www.stereogum.com/1971694/a-viral-grime-parody-is-about-to-become-the-biggest-grime-song-ever/franchises/status-aint-hood/ http://uproxx.com/realtalk/mans-not-hot-biggest-grime-song-ever/ http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11947180 https://pitchfork.com/features/lists-and-guides/the-100-best-songs-of-2017/ Aleccat 00:52, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Several uninformed international sources. It's objectively a drill song, and has been described as such by the producers. Dapaah hasn't once referred to it as grime either. Ask literally anyone who's familiar with both UK drill and grime, be it DJs, MCs, or journalists, and they'll tell you that US media is trying to conveniently pigeonhole two entirely unrelated genres into one to fit their inaccurate narrative. I've written for Link Up TV, the site which first hosted "Let's Lurk", and I can tell you that it's certainly not a grime song. --ItsLuke (contribs) 20:36, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Further evidence: co-producer GottiOnEm released a sequel entitled "Let's Lurk Part 2", which he labelled as "drill" on his SoundCloud profile. --ItsLuke (contribs) 20:42, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- @ItsLuke: Dapaah doesn't need to describe the genre of the song. There are plenty of artists who don't discuss the genre of their work. The genre of part 2 of the original sample track is irrelevant, and you're also ignoring the fact that not every source that calls it "grime" is a US publication. One of those was the New Zealand Herald. Ss112 21:27, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Ss112: Point me in the direction of a single credible commentator on the grime scene from New Zealand and I'll accept your point. The misinformation on this Wikipedia page (which was initially based on a single Uproxx article) is no doubt part of the reason why the use of the word "grime" in relation to this drill song has snowballed, so it's no surprise that other publications followed suit. Grime and drill share a lexicon and a culture, but the two genres of music are distinct (grime being around 140BPM and borne out of UK garage), and anyone who knows what they're talking about will tell you that this isn't a grime song. Dapaah even plays a different character who's a grime MC in his Somewhere in London series; he's called MC Quakez and the delivery and instrumentals he uses are distinctly different from Big Shaq. --ItsLuke (contribs) 23:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- You keep saying "anyone who knows what they're talking about"—perhaps writers just disagree with you. I trust you know that on Wikipedia, we don't write articles based on what "anyone who knows what they're talking about" would say; we go off what published sources say. It's always the resort of editors who disagree with what a published source says to claim that the author of the article has looked at Wikipedia, taken something they saw there and published it themselves. I think you'd find that's not as common a concept as you'd think. Let's not pretend that the only people who can tell the difference between "grime" and "drill" are located in the United Kingdom, as if nobody from the US can tell the difference. Again, obviously there are authors out there who just disagree with what you're trying to say. Also, there's no need to ping me, the page is on my watchlist and has been since I created the redirect. Ss112 04:18, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's easy to overlook or oversimplify the culture when you're looking from the outside in. Grime has become somewhat of a buzzword ever since Skepta's "That's Not Me" and Stormzy's "Shut Up", and international music news publications (one of which I write for myself) often mistake 'grime' and 'UK rap' for being interchangeable. Read the "musical style" section of the grime (music genre) Wiki page, and you can see that "Man's Not Hot" objectively doesn't match this description. Listen to Youngstar's "Pulse X", Danny Weed's "Creeper" or Wiley's "Eskimo" (all cited in the 'origins' section of the page) and you'll find they bear no resemblance to this song. This back-and-forth could go on all day as it's a subject I'm passionate about. If I could arrange an interview with the song's producers and confirm its genre as drill/UK rap, and published it through a reputable media outlet, would you accept my argument then? --ItsLuke (contribs) 10:38, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's not that I don't know what grime is or don't accept what you're saying, it's that we have sources (whether they aren't from the UK or not) stating that it is grime. Also, it's not as if living in the United Kingdom inherently gives somebody a better understanding of what grime is compared to other subgenres of hip hop. Somebody would have to be interested in it to begin with to know the difference. American music journalists (or those of any nationality) can differentiate between drill and grime without actually living in the UK. Ss112 11:27, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Grime is not a subgenre of hiphop as you can ascertain by viewing the wiki article - it would be strange for someone to edit an article they are not informed about but maybe that's just me. The original was created by a Drill group (86), reused by another drill group (67), and then Michael turned it into a drill parody. Nothing about the song is Grime aside from the uninformed sources referring to it as such. Sources that refer to it as Drill should be added to the article: one, two, three, four, five, six and the seventh which is the producers referring to it as Drill...because it is, and they're Drill producers. Madluke200 (talk) 13:38, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Madluke200: Why don't you read the article you're linking to? Grime music states that it "draws influence from dancehall, ragga, and hip hop." In the infobox: "stylistic origins: [...] hip hop". The article is also tagged with Category:British hip hop. That certainly sounds like a subgenre to me or at the very least, that it came from hip hop, which is basically what a subgenre is. Also, I believe I've already asked you or what I assume is your other account that already commented, "ItsLuke", to stop acting like I'm the one who originally added "grime" to the article (I didn't). I'm defending its use because reliable sources, whether you agree with them or not, still call the song "grime". We don't all need to subscribe to another's view of what songs genres are before we can edit articles. You're acting like you are right and everybody else is wrong or "uninformed" when this is clearly a matter of opinion. Finally, most of the sources you just listed are not reliable, so do better before you try to discredit me as if I'm solely responsible for what the article says (reminder: I'm not). I'm not your target just because I commented most recently here. It's three months after the last comment here. Either leave it alone, or open a new discussion below asking for drill to be added to the infobox (WP:CONSENSUS) and stop arguing with me as if I'm the gatekeeper of the article. Ss112 17:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- I disagree (the article actually indicates it comes directly from Garage) but the Grime argument doesn't need to be had here. As for the sock puppet accusations, I was a bit confused for a moment since I saw your message on my talk page and "ItsLuke" due to being tagged there, before I saw it here which has the explanation. It's inaccurate however, nothing about my editing history suggests sock puppetry and it would be odd to make a new account purely to add to the echo chamber after 3 months. It's merely a case of me using "Madluke200" 10 years ago and deciding long after that I wanted to change it, hence signature. It's not really about my view, your view or anyone else's but providing an accurate informative account of what something is. I didn't suggest removing Grime from the article since it is, as you said, sourced, but rather adding UK Drill to it with sources deemed reliable - not something I'm fully aware of how to do. Signed this time with actual username since the former appears to caused issues Madluke200 (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Madluke200: I have added drill to the genre list for you, but only citing the Soundvenue article, since it is the only source you provided which is sufficiently reliable while also being explicit in calling "Man's Not Hot" that genre. LifeofTau 22:41, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- Four genres for one song seems a bit much at this point. Also, Madluke200, you can disagree about the definition of grime music all you like: I'm simply telling you what the article for grime music says. If you disagree about its origins (and it is possible for it to have its origins in more than one genre of music), you can take it up there. I didn't add it there nor here. Ss112 00:12, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Madluke200: I have added drill to the genre list for you, but only citing the Soundvenue article, since it is the only source you provided which is sufficiently reliable while also being explicit in calling "Man's Not Hot" that genre. LifeofTau 22:41, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- I disagree (the article actually indicates it comes directly from Garage) but the Grime argument doesn't need to be had here. As for the sock puppet accusations, I was a bit confused for a moment since I saw your message on my talk page and "ItsLuke" due to being tagged there, before I saw it here which has the explanation. It's inaccurate however, nothing about my editing history suggests sock puppetry and it would be odd to make a new account purely to add to the echo chamber after 3 months. It's merely a case of me using "Madluke200" 10 years ago and deciding long after that I wanted to change it, hence signature. It's not really about my view, your view or anyone else's but providing an accurate informative account of what something is. I didn't suggest removing Grime from the article since it is, as you said, sourced, but rather adding UK Drill to it with sources deemed reliable - not something I'm fully aware of how to do. Signed this time with actual username since the former appears to caused issues Madluke200 (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Madluke200: Why don't you read the article you're linking to? Grime music states that it "draws influence from dancehall, ragga, and hip hop." In the infobox: "stylistic origins: [...] hip hop". The article is also tagged with Category:British hip hop. That certainly sounds like a subgenre to me or at the very least, that it came from hip hop, which is basically what a subgenre is. Also, I believe I've already asked you or what I assume is your other account that already commented, "ItsLuke", to stop acting like I'm the one who originally added "grime" to the article (I didn't). I'm defending its use because reliable sources, whether you agree with them or not, still call the song "grime". We don't all need to subscribe to another's view of what songs genres are before we can edit articles. You're acting like you are right and everybody else is wrong or "uninformed" when this is clearly a matter of opinion. Finally, most of the sources you just listed are not reliable, so do better before you try to discredit me as if I'm solely responsible for what the article says (reminder: I'm not). I'm not your target just because I commented most recently here. It's three months after the last comment here. Either leave it alone, or open a new discussion below asking for drill to be added to the infobox (WP:CONSENSUS) and stop arguing with me as if I'm the gatekeeper of the article. Ss112 17:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- Grime is not a subgenre of hiphop as you can ascertain by viewing the wiki article - it would be strange for someone to edit an article they are not informed about but maybe that's just me. The original was created by a Drill group (86), reused by another drill group (67), and then Michael turned it into a drill parody. Nothing about the song is Grime aside from the uninformed sources referring to it as such. Sources that refer to it as Drill should be added to the article: one, two, three, four, five, six and the seventh which is the producers referring to it as Drill...because it is, and they're Drill producers. Madluke200 (talk) 13:38, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- It's not that I don't know what grime is or don't accept what you're saying, it's that we have sources (whether they aren't from the UK or not) stating that it is grime. Also, it's not as if living in the United Kingdom inherently gives somebody a better understanding of what grime is compared to other subgenres of hip hop. Somebody would have to be interested in it to begin with to know the difference. American music journalists (or those of any nationality) can differentiate between drill and grime without actually living in the UK. Ss112 11:27, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's easy to overlook or oversimplify the culture when you're looking from the outside in. Grime has become somewhat of a buzzword ever since Skepta's "That's Not Me" and Stormzy's "Shut Up", and international music news publications (one of which I write for myself) often mistake 'grime' and 'UK rap' for being interchangeable. Read the "musical style" section of the grime (music genre) Wiki page, and you can see that "Man's Not Hot" objectively doesn't match this description. Listen to Youngstar's "Pulse X", Danny Weed's "Creeper" or Wiley's "Eskimo" (all cited in the 'origins' section of the page) and you'll find they bear no resemblance to this song. This back-and-forth could go on all day as it's a subject I'm passionate about. If I could arrange an interview with the song's producers and confirm its genre as drill/UK rap, and published it through a reputable media outlet, would you accept my argument then? --ItsLuke (contribs) 10:38, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- You keep saying "anyone who knows what they're talking about"—perhaps writers just disagree with you. I trust you know that on Wikipedia, we don't write articles based on what "anyone who knows what they're talking about" would say; we go off what published sources say. It's always the resort of editors who disagree with what a published source says to claim that the author of the article has looked at Wikipedia, taken something they saw there and published it themselves. I think you'd find that's not as common a concept as you'd think. Let's not pretend that the only people who can tell the difference between "grime" and "drill" are located in the United Kingdom, as if nobody from the US can tell the difference. Again, obviously there are authors out there who just disagree with what you're trying to say. Also, there's no need to ping me, the page is on my watchlist and has been since I created the redirect. Ss112 04:18, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Ss112: Point me in the direction of a single credible commentator on the grime scene from New Zealand and I'll accept your point. The misinformation on this Wikipedia page (which was initially based on a single Uproxx article) is no doubt part of the reason why the use of the word "grime" in relation to this drill song has snowballed, so it's no surprise that other publications followed suit. Grime and drill share a lexicon and a culture, but the two genres of music are distinct (grime being around 140BPM and borne out of UK garage), and anyone who knows what they're talking about will tell you that this isn't a grime song. Dapaah even plays a different character who's a grime MC in his Somewhere in London series; he's called MC Quakez and the delivery and instrumentals he uses are distinctly different from Big Shaq. --ItsLuke (contribs) 23:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- @ItsLuke: Dapaah doesn't need to describe the genre of the song. There are plenty of artists who don't discuss the genre of their work. The genre of part 2 of the original sample track is irrelevant, and you're also ignoring the fact that not every source that calls it "grime" is a US publication. One of those was the New Zealand Herald. Ss112 21:27, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
- Further evidence: co-producer GottiOnEm released a sequel entitled "Let's Lurk Part 2", which he labelled as "drill" on his SoundCloud profile. --ItsLuke (contribs) 20:42, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
I cannot believe for the life of me that wikipedia is supporting the common ignorant, and frankly racist, labelling of any black British music as grime. This is objectively NOT grime. And the fact that some clown journalist with absolutely zero understanding of UK music thinks British person rapping = grime does not make it true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.180.75 (talk) 17:11, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Requested move 7 January 2018
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by page mover) Simplexity22 (talk) 00:00, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Man's Not Hot → Mans Not Hot – The title of the song, according to the author, has no apostrophe. FallingGravity 22:34, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. The absence of the apostrophe isn't consistent in published sources, however. Articles from the OCC, the song's own iTunes listing... Ss112 07:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Disagree The song is being distributed as "Man's Not Hot" by the record label in all channels (See 1, 2, 3). The opinion of the author in this case doesn't matter and the title should remain the same. --27.56.183.242 (talk) 04:23, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. All stores list the single with the apostrophe. (Agree with above point) Lazz_R 16:00, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per two reasons above, referred to as "Man's Not Hot" on iTunes and YouTube. JE98 (talk) 17:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose for basically all of the reasons above. VibeScepter (talk) 21:00, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.