Talk:Consuelo Montagu, Duchess of Manchester

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Srb4271 (talk) 00:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)Will someone please help me expand the Consuelo Yznaga del Valle bio? It would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Calling her mother "Ellen Maria Clement y Little" is silly as well as incorrect. Her father was Cuban and used the Spanish style of surname that incorporated both his parents' names. Her mother, however, was an Anglo from Louisiana and her surname was "Clement" -- period. Also, I believe the proper style for a peeress's married name, according to To Marry an English Lord (which has a lot about her) is "Consuelo Manchester". I.e., her husband's title, not his surname. --Michael K Smith^Talk 00:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Yznaga vs. Iznaga

I've changed the last name from Iznaga to Yznaga, which is how the last name was originally shown in the article until it was changed within the last year or two. Yznaga appears to be the more common usage in reliable sources ([1] [2] [3]), and is how the name appears in original documents. Ancestry.com sources that use the Iznaga last name shouldn't be relied on - Ancestry.com should rarely be used as a reliable source, and some of the documents actually appear to have been copied and changed (for example, the New York Times article shown on Ancestry.com spells Iznaga, though the original New York Times article uses Yznaga). ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 20:17, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The correct spelling is Iznaga; there is no “Y” in Basque alphabet. “Y” is "I Griega" which is Greek I. It has nothing to do with Basques. Also in the 1700's and 1800's it was very common for words beginning with “I” to be written with a “Y” both in common words (Yglesia, Ysla) and Names (Ygnacio, Ybarra ...). In the 1800's in America and in many other countries, Y and I were often interchangeable, as the alphabet was not yet officially 26 letters, and so Y, J, I all were basically used for the same thing as was U for V, thus why a W became shown as two V's joined together. see http://meta.gipuzkoakultura.net/bitstream/10690/75278/1/AM_325284.pdf – written by Fernando del Valle Lersundi, Basque Historian in 1911. Izzy 1911. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Izzy1911 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)‎

Hi @Izzy1911: Hmm...as far as I'm aware, Conseulo's official documents are marked as Yznaga. In addition, Wikipedia tends to refer to subjects as they are most commonly referred to in reliable English sources. It looks to me that the majority of English sources, including those used within the article, use the "Y" spelling. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 02:24, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Reply - Iznaga has 207,000 google results vs 70,000 for Yznaga. The genealogy of the Iznaga family written in 1911 is proof that it should be IZNAGA. At the very least Iznaga should be included in any Yznaga entry in wikipedia also so family members can find it in google search.Izzy1911 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Izzy1911 (talk • contribs) 12:58, 25 July 2015‎ (UTC)

@Izzy1911: Search counts aren't necessarily what we look at - we need to analyze actual sources, especially since many of the results of of Iznaga/Yznaga aren't referring to our subject. Either way, a more specific search like "Consuelo Yznaga" returns more results over "Consuelo Iznaga". We could add "(alternatively spelled Iznaga)" or something of that sort to the lead paragraph if there are reliable sources that refer to our subject as Iznaga. Are there reliable sources beyond this one that use the Iznaga spelling? ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 20:13, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Reply - Fernando del Valle Lersundi is a noted Basque Historian, also there are more Consuelo Iznaga (7,000) searches than with Yznaga (6000), the alternate spelling should be shown as nee Consuelo Iznaga y Clement as per Spanish nomenclature, which is shown on numerous web sites,even google books show more Iznaga than with a Y, the reason it was shown as a Y was because in the 1800's Y was sometimes used as an I. see also http://www.euskomedia.org/aunamendi?op=1&idi=es ( Iznaga exists, Yznaga doesn't, http://theesotericcuriosa.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post_2096.html, http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/books/heiresses-of-whartons-era-in-fashion-on-her-150th-birthday.html?_r=0, http://www.thedukeanddoxieofmanchester.info/p/lineage_12.html, Izzy1911 (talk) 16:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Izzy1911

@Izzy1911: If you search with quotations around "Conseulo Iznaga", you get more results for Yznaga - but regardless, mere counts don't indicate anything. We should look at how common each spelling is in reliable English-language sources. Looking at the sources used in the article, most (if not all; I can't be sure due to some sources being behind a paywall) use the Yznaga spelling ([4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]). I have gone ahead and added the alternative spelling (along with your linked New York Times reference) to the lead of the article, if you think that is a fair representation? I question the reliability of some of the other sources you linked, particularly the Blogpost website. Perhaps I'm wrong with the commonality of each name, but as far as I see the "Yznaga" spelling is the most common, and I don't see why we should change the spelling unless more sources are shown and used with the "Iznaga" spelling. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

On a side-note, I'm only referring to our article's subject in regards to the spelling: Consuelo Yznaga. Other family members, such as Antonio, could be more commonly referred to with the "Iznaga" spelling. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:30, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Reply - It may have been common in the 1800's to spell Iznaga with a Y but it is incorrect. Consuelo Iznaga Clement was of Basque Cuban ancestry thru her father Antonio Iznaga del Valle, the references I gave you are from Basque web sites, like the 1911 Iznaga family genealogy by Fernando del Valle Lersundi, Enciclopedia Auñamendi... There are records of the Iznaga family since 1374 in Segura, Spain - IZNAGA, Juan Ochoa y Lope Ochoa, Cofrades de San Andrés en Segura en 1374 Mayo 7. Estatutos y ordenanzas de la cofradía de San Andrés de Segura firmada por 115 cofrades de aquella villa. Yznaga is a mispelling.Izzy1911 (talk) 18:18, 27 July 2015 (UTC)Izzy1911

@Izzy1911: I'm not really concerned with how her ancestors from 700 years ago spelled their names. What should be of concern is how Consuelo spelled her own name, and how reliable sources spell her name (not her ancestor's name; her name). As far as I'm aware, Consuelo went with the 'Yznaga' spelling, and as I've said: that's how the majority of sources also spell her name. Language evolves, and if a last name changes spelling, then it's not any less correct than the previous spelling. I myself actually spell my own last name differently than my father, his father, and his father before that - instead of an 'e' in my last name, I go with an 'a'. We made the change so my name would be more easily pronounceable by English speakers. But I certainly wouldn't want anyone to refer to me with the 'e' spelling, even if that was the "correct" way my ancestors spelled their last name for centuries prior. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 18:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Here are more references of Consuelo Iznaga - https://henrypoole.com/hall_of_fame/9th-duke-marlborough/ http://www.thecubanhistory.com/2014/10/duchess-of-manchester-maria-consuelo-iznaga-clement-cuban-descendant-maria-consuelo-iznaga-clement-duchess-of-manchester/ https://archive.org/stream/sfnewsletter3839unse/sfnewsletter3839unse_djvu.txt http://news-entertainment.net/downton-abbey-season-5-episode-3-recap-choosing-your-own-path/ http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/television/2015/01/18/tv-tonight-jan-18-grantchester-debuts.html http://mylusciouslife.com/historical-books-reading-list-british-american-social-history/ https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19750501&id=twQqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YykEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7369,81705&hl=en http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=5261875 Regards, Izzy1911 (talk) 20:28, 28 July 2015 (UTC)Izzy1911

@Izzy1911: Thanks for posting these! I have some concerns, however.

• The first and last sources are from stores. We can't be sure of the editorial oversight on these sites, or the sources these sites used - and I wouldn't consider these to be as reliable as other professional and academic sources we have.
• The Star article discusses Yznaga as she appears in Million Dollar American Princesses - though the show's site itself (bio available here) uses the Yznaga spelling.
• The News-Entertainment source doesn't seem reliable, especially with no author listed for the article. The bit mention Yznaga is actually exactly the same as the Star source above; I'm guessing News-Entertainment copied the Star article, or they are both getting their information from another source.
• I'm wary of trusting sources written within the last few years, as there's a good chance they referenced our own Wikipedia article for information and spelling. My next two points show why...
• The Cuban History source is actually a copy and paste of this Wikipedia article!
• The Luscious post references Wikipedia, and was indeed written when our Wikipedia article used the 'Iznaga' spelling.

The Milwaukee Journal article is certainly reliable and authoritative, but again, that leaves us with the issue of which spelling is more common. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 02:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

From Library of Congress it shows it both ways as it was the norm of the day spelling Iznaga with a Y. http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn90059523/1899-04-16/ed-1/seq-9/#date1=1836&index=0&rows=20&words=Consuelo+Iznaga&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=%22Consuelo+Iznaga%22&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1, The Saint Paul globe., April 16, 1899, Image 9, http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn94052989/1893-11-08/ed-1/seq-6/#date1=1836&index=1&rows=20&words=Consuelo+Iznaga&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=%22Consuelo+Iznaga%22&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1, The morning call., November 08, 1893, Image 6. Here is another one from NY Times 1961 - Banns Across the Sea; THE MARRYING AMERICANS. By Hesketh Pearson. Illustrated. 313 pp. New York: Coward-McCann. $5. "startling similarity in the choice of the lesser figures in what ,[r. Pearson calls "banns across the sea" -- Minhie Paget. Consuelo Iznaga, Tennessee Claflin and Victoria Wood-hull. The final irony is that his book even shares the" July 16, 1961 - By CLEVELAND AMORY - Print Headline: "Banns Across the Sea; THE MARRYING AMERICANS. By Hesketh Pearson. Illustrated. 313 pp. New York: Coward-McCann. $5.Izzy1911 (talk) 08:48, 29 July 2015 (UTC)Izzy1911.

@Izzy1911: Yes. There are articles that show "Iznaga", whether intentionally, by typo, or from a bad source. However, this family CHOSE to spell it and represent themselves as "Yznaga" throughout their life and in their death.

Antonio Yznaga del Valle Obituary - http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2014/New%20York%20NY%20Herald/New%20York%20NY%20Herald%201892/New%20York%20NY%20Herald%201892%20-%202415.pdf#xml=http://fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=4144a987&DocId=3825403&Index=Z%3a%5cIndex%20U%2dF%2dP&HitCount=17&hits=296+66d+66e+670+f06+f07+f08+f12+1a80+1aa3+1ce5+1d3d+1d44+1e27+1e2f+1e46+200f+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf"

Ellen Yznaga's Obituary - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F01E6D9173EE233A25756C2A9679C946997D6CF ;

Consuelo Yznaga's Obituary - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C06EFDE1239E733A25753C2A9679D946897D6CF ;

Fernando Yznaga's Obituary - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03E5DF1139E733A25754C0A9659C946097D6CF ;

Natica Yznaga's Obituary - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9502E4DF1630E53BBC4C52DFB4668388659EDE

Emilie Yznaga's Obituary - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A00E3D6113CE03ABC4A53DFB767838F659EDESandyiego23 (talk) 01:55, 30 July 2015 (UTC)(talk) 00:27, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Unless written in their own handwriting, all the newspaper articles and records in the 1800’s and 1900’s, prove that Iznaga was being written with a Y as the norm of the day by reporters and notetakers to embellish names beginning with an I. Iznaga has been written as Isnaga, Ignaga, Igmaga, Isuaga, Izuaga, Ysnaga, Yznaga, Ygnaga, Ygmaga, Ysuaga, and Yzuaga and they are all incorrect. The same person could have from 5 to 10 Iznaga spellings in different records. The only spelling recognized by the Basque encyclopedia and Academy of Language is Iznaga. The correct spelling is Iznaga; there is no “Y” in Basque alphabet. See Torre Iznaga and Iznaga coat of arms. Izzy1911 (talk) 09:37, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Izzy1911

@Izzy1911: Yes, newspaper articles are notorious for misspelling or incorrect/incomplete information. Whether this is due to carelessness, typos, misinformation, it’s hard to say. It is very interesting to me that the obituaries in these newspapers, all different years, all managed to spell the name as Yznaga. As you said, the “I” could have been entered out of misinformation. Don’t imagine they had proofreaders back then. The New York Times shows Consuelo’s Obituary as Yznaga, the Evening Star shows Emily Yznaga as being at the bedside of her dying sister Consuelo; as well as the obituary articles for Fernando and Natica. These were all printed in different years, yet they all show Yznaga.

The links to the Museums are different. The Museum has a reputation to uphold and I am sure they must do extensive research before they hang a portrait or post information on their website about a sitter for that portrait.

Museum of the City of New York http://collections.mcny.org/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&VBID=24UAYWZF0TZC&SMLS=1&RW=1430&RH=764

Smithsonian Institute http://collections.si.edu/search/results.htm?q=Duchess%20of%20Manchester&sType=%22phrase%22

New York History Museum http://www.nyhistory.org/exhibit/mrs-fernando-yznaga-1869-1926 Fernando is Consuelo’s brother.

New York Public Library Do search for Yznaga, 7 items – Antonio Modesto and Natica are listed http://www.ny.com/frame?url=http://www.nypl.org/&frame=/frame/museums.html

The Torre Iznaga and Coat of Arms. These are in Cuba. This family CHOSE to change their name in the United States. Sandyiego23 (talk) 06:15, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

All they did is sometimes write Iznaga with a Y as it was the norm of the day. The Coat of Arms is since 1374 in Amorebieta, Spain.The Torre Iznaga was erected 1816 before even Consuelo was born. Or maybe they didn't know any better.Izzy1911 (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)Izzy 1911

@Izzy1911: I am glad that you are proud of the Torre Iznaga and the Iznaga Coat of Arms, as am I. However, this is only about Consuelo’s life and how her father CHOSE to represent his surname.Sandyiego23 (talk) 03:17, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

ref. Yznaga vs. Iznaga

I have further edited this family's surname. Consuelo's father, Antonio Yznaga del Valle immigrated from Cuba and continued the Spanish custom of using both, his father's surname and his mother's maiden name. However, as was the custom in the United States at this time, his spouse, Ellen Clement, took only his paternal surname and represented herself as Ellen Maria Yznaga. Their 4 children were given only their father's paternal surname as well, and represented themselves throughout their lives as Fernando Yznaga; Consuelo Yznaga; Natica Yznaga; and Emilie Yznaga. Additional minor edits were made such as a typo and subtraction error. (Sandyiego23 (talk) 03:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC))

The correct spelling is Iznaga; there is no “Y” in Basque alphabet. “Y” is "I Griega" which is Greek I. It has nothing to do with Basques. Also in the 1700's and 1800's it was very common for words beginning with “I” to be written with a “Y” both in common words (Yglesia, Ysla) and Names (Ygnacio, Ybarra ...). In the 1800's in America and in many other countries, Y and I were often interchangeable, as the alphabet was not yet officially 26 letters, and so Y, J, I all were basically used for the same thing as was U for V, thus why a W became shown as two V's joined together. http://meta.gipuzkoakultura.net/bitstream/10690/75278/1/AM_325284.pdf written by Fernando del Valle Lersundi, Basque Historian in 1911.Izzy1911

Additional References for Names

Here is the entry for José Aniceto Iznaga Borrell, her paternal grandfather, which could be linked directly: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Aniceto_Iznaga_Borrell

An actual link to the relevant page for the genealogical book already referenced: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072361700&seq=121

And, the memorial for the Duchess of Manchester (and her siblings): https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159769871/consuelo_montagu

Most of the family was born in NYC (and died there), but one might get confused in thinking that these people have any ties to Louisiana other than their New England families owned sugar plantations and winter homes there. Gilded Age, indeed.