Talk:Mary Quant/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

dagmaar@op.pl how about quant's designs for the movie business? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.0.65.123 (talk) 08:31, 17 April 2004 (UTC)

yes it will bring life to the movies and psychodelic fabric and colours to make it bazaar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.65.158.124 (talk) 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh and by the way, picture must be installed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.73 (talk) 21:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Mary Quant

You are talking about Mary Quant so if you want to learn more information you have to know first that she invented the mini skirts in the 1960's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.250.155.203 (talk) 09:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

She did create the miniskirt, or have revisionists caught up with her? If so, sources should be given for this still unorthodox view.--Radh (talk) 06:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Bias

Article seems full of praise and not much else. Significant bias. I am not knowledgeable enough about the subject to attempt to neutralize the article. Squishwaste (talk) 03:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Caution with Quant references.

I would just warn people that perhaps more than any other fashion designer, there are a lot of lazy generalizations and soundbites about Mary Quant out there. Reporters in particular, even fashion journalists who should know better, perpetuate a lot of misinformation and myths about her. I personally don't believe that she was the inventor of any particular modes or fashions, although she was (and still is, as anyone who witnessed the V&A talk that was supposed to be about her 60s work, and ended up being 90% about her new make-up ranges can attest to!) an undeniably brilliant publicist, stylist and self promoter. It's incontrovertible that she helped popularise certain styles, but just a bit of caution and a LOT of pinches of salt with references for Quant, eh? After all, Marit Allen - the Vogue editor who was right in the middle of the London young fashion scene in the '60s, certainly didn't think Quant invented the miniskirt... [V&A reference] 10:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

That V&A ref says that Allen believes “Bates was the true creator of the miniskirt, rather than Mary Quant or Courregés.”. Can't see any problems adding that information to this article, as it is reliably sourced and as WP:NPOV states “Articles mustn't take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it.”. Nevertheless, the RS cited information saying what Quant was resposible for should remain. It shouldn't be for editors to decide whether claims made by reliable sources are correct or not, just to note that they are made. Daicaregos (talk) 13:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree - I keep meaning to tackle and improve this article but keep getting frustrated by how much bad reporting on Quant there is. IMO, it needs a general overhaul and cross-checking but never seem to have the time to tackle it properly! Mabalu (talk) 14:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC) (PS: Why didn't my ID show in the original comment?)

Quant's nationality

There does seem to be a dogged insistence at the moment on changing Quant's nationality to British. (For what it's worth I personally believe British fits better. She definitely has Welsh roots, but she was born in London and had a very Anglo-centric upbringing, and so I would consider her British.) What is desperately needed is for someone to ask Quant outright whether she considers herself to be British or Welsh. Does she say anything on the subject in either autobiography? However, I accept that multiple "reliable sources" describe her as Welsh so until I see Quant explicitly tell an interviewer whether she does or doesn't identify as Welsh, I accept this (albeit with very strong reservations). Incidentally - and this is a perfectly serious question - do the same arguments apply to another contemporary of Quant's, Sybil Connolly, who was actually born in Wales and has a Welsh mother - but who is considered Irish and one of Ireland's greatest fashion designers? Mabalu (talk) 23:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Because it's relevant, I'm paraphrasing an exchange on my talk page over here. The point is that reliable sources describe Quant as Welsh AND as British/English. The Met Museum were cited as a source for describing Connolly as Irish, yet that same site describes Quant as British, born in London. The Encyclopaedia Britannica, as reliable a source as you can get, Encyclopaedia Britannica says English, and published sources such as the Berg Companion (a recently added reference) avoid any mention of nationality. Any references to Quant's Welshness seem to be in relation to her parents or from fractionally less reliable sources - I would expect the Encyclopaedia Britannica to be more accurate than a journalist, although the BBC is generally pretty reliable. I'd also suggest consideration of Jean Muir - a very similar situation to Quant, although London-born Scottish rather than London-born Welsh. Jean Muir, however, was extremely proud of her Scottish heritage, always acknowledged it, and the National Museum of Scotland calls her an "iconic Scottish designer" which I have no problem with. I tried to see if Quant is mentioned at all on the National Museum of Wales site - she is, once, in a hand-out. You'd think that if she was considered Welsh, she would be high on anyone's list of famous Welsh people - yet a quick Google shows she barely figures on such lists beyond the Wikipedia one. Mabalu (talk) 17:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm with you, Mabalu: rather agnostic on the question and now desperately wanting to know how she self-identifies. I also don't think the BBC source is all that good. It mentions her in passing, while also identifying Nell Gwyn as Welsh (and her Welshness is even more questionable). As I pointed out here, the term "Welsh women" is used in the same article to refer to women of Welsh heritage, regardless of how they self-identify. That said, it remains the best source we have. I'm actually quite concerned that the new sources I added here are themselves based on Wikipedia. Can we have some input from someone who's read her autobiography? garik (talk) 23:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Overall, I'd be in favour of editing the intro to read (roughly) as follows. What do other people think?

Mary Quant, OBE, FCSD is a fashion designer and fashion icon.[2][3] She was born in England to Welsh parents on 11 February 1934 and became instrumental in the 1960s mod fashion movement. She was one of the designers who took credit for the miniskirt and hot pants, and by promoting these and other fun fashions she encouraged young people to dress to please themselves and to treat fashion as a game.[4][5]

garik (talk) 01:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I like this, although I think Daicaregos may have his own thoughts on the matter. It's very important to acknowledge the Welsh connection. I did find an article from the 60s that describes Quant as a "Welsh witch" showing that some people identified her as Welsh even then, so the Welsh thing is probably handy journalese. But it is a very important aspect of Quant's heritage. Mabalu (talk) 13:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. garik (talk) 14:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone have any further comments? If not, I will be bold and edit the lead as suggested above, as I think it seems an ideal compromise. Mabalu (talk) 18:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. We're still left with the question of what to do with the infobox though. Any thoughts? garik (talk) 21:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Is "Anglo-Welsh" even an option? Not that I particularly like that term, it sounds a bit pretentious, but... Mabalu (talk) 14:39, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Let's wait a bit and see if anyone objects to it. If not, go with that! garik (talk) 15:44, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Done it - I made a few tweaks to your text to emphasise that it wasn't just Mod fashion and that it was London-based, hope that was OK. Unfortunately, I've realised I've lost the BBC reference, but not sure it's too regrettable a loss as all it said was "she's got Welsh lips"... Hopefully we've found a good balance there. Mabalu (talk) 15:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

You're forgetting the Biography standards for introductory paragraphs. Deb (talk) 21:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

do you have a suggestion for getting around this? The Welsh and British factions do get a bit edit warry over this..... Mabalu (talk) 00:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth (and being Welsh myself), I would call her British in the intro. And I think the existing sentence about her birthplace and parentage makes it clear what this means. Deb (talk) 11:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

P I C T U R E S

p l e a s e Billyshiverstick (talk) 02:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Nationality

As noted by verifiable, reliable sources, Mary Quant is described, and self-identifies, as Welsh. e.g. BBC News: New Year Honours: Designer Mary Quant among Welsh recipients "Ms Quant, who has Welsh parents and considers herself Welsh, was recognised for services to British fashion." This should be noted in the lead and infobox of her article. Daicaregos (talk) 10:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

In popular culture

In the 1966 Donovan Leitch song - 'Sunny South Kensington', Quant and Jean-Paul Belmondo's drug use/abuse is immortalized in the lyric: "Jean-Paul Belmondo and-a Mary Quant got Stoned, to say the least". Let us eat lettuce (talk) 17:55, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Does nobody care to discuss the proposed content?? Let us eat lettuce (talk) 23:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

References

Popularity charts ?

"the name was changed when popularity charts were set against having Quant's name on the car"

I cannot understand this sentence. What on earth is a 'popularity chart'?

Does it mean simply 'a consumer survey showed that people opposed the idea'?

FWIW I can't believe that Quant or anybody 'invented' the miniskirt. Fashions suddenly happen. Read Twiggy's autobiography. She says straight out that she and her 1960s girlfriends copied no-one, they just set out to stun each other with more and more outrageous clothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:9C36:6FA8:3FA6:99F (talk) 08:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Birth year

Both 1934 and 1930 are given - which is correct? Jackiespeel (talk) 00:08, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

When she started full time schooling might be a confirming indicator - it has been 5 since primary education became compulsory in 1870s in UK. In which case her school start years would be respectively 1939 or 1935. BTW If it was 1930, this would make her the 'special' age of 90 this year.Cloptonson (talk) 12:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

That would be helpful, Cloptonson, yes; but the article doesn’t say. Neither does the Britannica entry. It’s frustrating!

Cuddy2977 (talk) 06:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The side panel says born 1934, died 2023, age 93. When I was at school, 2023 - 1934 equalled 89, not 9381.140.176.148 (talk) 13:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Lacuna

One minute she’s apprenticed to a ‘high-end hatmaker’, whatever that may be, then suddenly Miss Quant is ‘stocking dresses’ from ‘other manufacturers’, and thinking of stocking her own designs. Stocking them? Why? Where? So she suddenly has a business of her own? When did she start this? Retail sales? Wholesale? Seems to be a big gap in the narrative of her career. 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:D8C4:A77D:4FC9:D49A (talk) 06:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)