Talk:Max Boisot

Questions about Prince Philip

Note: I have copied this discussion directly from BLPN, because it may be helpful to someone in the future, and because this discussion really should be on the talk page and not at BLPN anyway.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am having some issues with user:81.110.111.164 on the above page. Per this I deleted a reference to a relationship with Prince Philip which has been the subject of much title tattle. I did this at the request of Boisot who I know. The IP concerned has not just inserted the material, but also a "denial reference" which is in the worst tradition of gutter journalism. Boisot is a minor figure and entitled to some protection. Its made worse in the this case as the IP is playing WP:Hound after edit warring over a political template where he cannot get agreement and has failed to observe WP:AGF in his/her comments.

If I have got the policy on protection of minor figures wrong then OK, let me know and I will suggest to Boisot that he asks for the whole article to be deleted. If I have it right then can someone with the right authority levels get rid of the material?

Thanks --Snowded ^TALK 00:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that it's the case that our articles are not censored by request, and that something that the subject merely finds uncomfortable is not subject to removal. The claim is sourced (the article names the subject himself as its source), and would appear to be directly relevant in context since it forms the basis for his gaining entry to the school in question. I suggest that Snowded has a conflict of interest and his report here is an attempt to play the man rather than the ball. 81.110.111.164 (talk) 01:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Probably best to discuss this on the talk page of the article. Considering that the source is the Mirror, I'd lean towards just leaving it out. It doesn't seem very relevant. –Joshua Scott 01:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - My report here is seek guidance from the community as to what is permitted and what is not. My concern is that reporting an "accusation" from a tabloid newspaper is in effect to give publicity to a minor figure which is damaging to that person. Its not a fact about the subject which the subject finds discomforting, but the unsubstantiated accusation of illegitimacy which goes with it. My belief has always been that Wikipedia has always been careful of minor living figures in this respect. I am hoping that the community can resolve this quickly. --Snowded ^TALK 01:43, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - The article didn't claim anywhere that he was illegitimate. 81.110.111.164 (talk) 04:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Disingenuous at best. The opening sentence of the Mirror article has the phrase "spent a lifetime denying that Prince Philip is his father." Its the classic tabloid sleaze, force someone to deny something so the suspicion remains that it is the truth --Snowded ^TALK 05:43, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        It really isn't disingenuous, Snowded. Look at these 14 words. Do you see anything about paternity? No, you don't. Whatever the Mirror has implied about paternity, the Wikipedia article has in no revision repeated it. I think that you're letting your mental picture of 81.110.111.164 somehow being your "opponent" get in the way of looking at what is actually written. Uncle G (talk) 16:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My initial reaction, Snowded, is "What on Earth?". Either you or the person you are in external communication with are making a serious mistake in confusing godchildren with bastards. Either that or you are confusing what the source says with what the article itself said.
Anyway, both the Mirror article cited and (it appears) the original source, ISBN 9781850892564, both clearly talk about Marcel Boisot as the (eventually acknowledged) father. (Page 103 says outright: "She had been deeply in love with the father, Max [this appears to be a typo, as it says Marcel elsewhere] Boisot, a French airforce officer in wartime England but he deserted her and the children, though she says they are now reconciled." My emphasis.)
So surely we can avoid this whole issue by just having the article name Marcel as Max's father ("Max Boisot is the son of World War II French airman Marcel Boisot and cabaret star Hélène Foufounis (who used the stage name Hélène Cordet)."), sourced to article and books? (The stage name part is sourceable to page 188 of ISBN 9780385299176.) Compare Louise Cordet. That's what M. Boisot wants the world to know, after all, right? Uncle G (talk) 05:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Reporting facts is fine, using innuendo (see my response to the IP above) is not. Your suggestion is perfectly acceptable. --Snowded ^TALK 05:43, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - What weight should be given this and these? AJRG (talk) 09:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - My view here is that unless it can be shown that this bit of tabloid speculation is somehow notable in the life of Max Boisot (which seems unlikely) it should be left out completely, particularly since this is a relatively short biography anyway.
      At the same time, while the Mirror is clearly not a valid source for much of anything in anyone's biography, it should be at least thought about whether the fact of Mr. Boisot being Prince Philip's godchild is relevant. (I join Uncle G in wondering whether there may have been some confusion here about the term "godchild" - which does not imply anything negative about paternity at all, but is instead a completely honorable tradition.) It may or may not be an interesting and relevant fact about Mr. Boisot that his family is close to the royal family, but I'm not in any position to know about that.
      I also agree that this discussion ought to be on the talk page of the article, and therefore I'm going to copy it there now, so that it might prove useful to anyone who wants to revisit this question in the future.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - ~~Which is it, is Boisot claimed to be the Duke's godchild or illegitimate child (there's a difference, folks)? GoodDay (talk) 15:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)~~[reply]
      - Prof Boisot is one of Philip's God Children and is listed as such elsewhere in Wikipedia. Unfortunately that fact has been linked with a lot of speculation in the Tabloid Press which has no substance and the godchild fact has been used in a "nudge nudge say no more" way. The Telegraph article that AJRG reports many rumours but comes to no conclusion. Given the amount of grief that the individual has had over the years on this its not really surprising that when I told him he had an article that he asked me to remove that statement which I don't think is particularly notable. The Ansoff Prize, setting up the first Business School in China and many other facts are of far more significance. The Mirror link (which I removed) is not appropriate in any circumstances as it is nothing but innuendo. Providing details of parentage may be notable but I doubt it. The justification for the article is Boisot's status as an academic, neither of his parents are especially notable in that context. --Snowded ^TALK 15:15, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        ~~The Boisot fellow doesn't seem overly notable, perhaps a AfD is in order. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)~~[reply]

Here's a suggestion for both of you, 81.110.111.164 and Snowded: Snowded is happy to have content such as the above. So let's have 81.110.111.164 do the edit. Perhaps this will help to dispel the silly idea that seems to be present that you two are automatically enemies that cannot therefore do anything but revert war with each other. Here's some suggested wikitext for the article body:

Max Boisot is the son of World War II French airman Marcel Boisot and cabaret star H&eacute;l&egrave;ne Foufounis<ref name=Hall1988 /> (who used the stage name H&eacute;l&egrave;ne Cordet<ref name=Flamini1991 />).  He is the brother of [[Louise Cordet]].<ref name=Hall1988 />

And here's some suggested wikitext for the references section:

{{reflist|refs=
<ref name=Hall1988>{{cite book|title=Philip: the man behind the monarchy|author=Unity Hall|publisher=Isis|date=1988|isbn=1850892563|isbn13=9781850892564|pages=103,106}}</ref>
<ref name=Flamini1991>{{cite book|title=Sovereign: Elizabeth II and the Windsor dynasty|author=Roland Flamini|publisher=Delacorte Press|date=1991|isbn=0385299176|isbn13=9780385299176|pages=188}}</ref>
}}

Uncle G (talk) 16:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no particular feeling on who does the edit. I removed material that I considered inappropriate immediately after the article was created - and took the issue to a wider audience as soon as it appeared controversial. The above is fine by me --Snowded ^TALK 23:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per Jimbo's request I asked Mx for his views and he says: As you point out, Philip's relevance to my career is non-existent - as it is, for that matter, to the rest of my life. I suspect that the best formula is the one that names my father (Marcel Boisot) and my mother (Helene Foufounis). Cordet served as a stage name both for my mother and for my sister. The latter's real name, of course, was Louise Boisot. (Jimbo, happy to forward the email to you if it would help) I think that supports the suggestion of Uncle G. So is everyone happy with that? --Snowded ^TALK 08:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of contextual facts are being neglected here. Firstly, Marcel Boisot was an heroic pilot who flew his plane out of Vichy France and crash-landed in Spain, flew many missions for the RAF and was highly decorated by both the British and French governments who became a lecturer at the École des Ponts et Chaussées and the École Polytechnique and the author of scientific and philosophical works and secondly, Prince Philip paid for Max to go to Gordonstoun (Daily Mail 2 May 1996 - source Helene Cordet). The relationship between the two families is notable: Helene's explanation for Prince Philip's help with the children's school fees dated back to the Twenties, when her family had helped his parents, Prince Andrew and Princess Alice of Greece. They were penniless after being thrown out of Greece as a result of political upheavals. AJRG (talk) 10:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Max Boisot's death

We don't have a good source for this, and I was concerned about this being mere vandalism. There are no news reports to this point. However, 3 people have posted memorial messages on Max Boisot's facebook page, including someone of the same surname, Alex Boisot. So it seems safe enough to leave it in pending further confirmation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:14, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Snowded, the editor who has been in touch with Max Boisot in the past (see above discussion) has confirmed this in his twitter feed and blog. RIP, Max.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just added it as a reference, as it seems a trustworthy blog.--Jordiferrer (talk) 22:55, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've been on an wiki holiday for a bit, partly due to Max's death. It is with great regret the truth and I am working on an obit at the moment --Snowded ^TALK 12:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Socks

Note that:

Sancho Standa (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Staun Quixote (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

...have been blocked as Confirmed sockpuppets. WilliamH (talk) 00:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]