Talk:Messianic Judaism

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Former good article Messianic Judaism was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
February 12, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
August 5, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
November 23, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article


categorization and listing as "new religious movement"[edit]

@Avraham: See my question (and the answer) at Talk:New religious movement. Seems that the term is deliberately broad and vague, really having nothing to do with being "new", for the sake of disparaging certain subjects as "fringe" with a politically-correct gloss. From the lead-in sentence, "A new religious movement (NRM) is a religious community or spiritual group of modern origins, which has a peripheral place within its society's dominant religious culture", there's nothing to distinguish this categorization from category:Subcultures of religious movements. Indeed, the sentiment of the reply is backed up in the second paragraph of the article, "Many scholars studying the sociology of religion prefer to use the term "New Religious Movement" as a neutral alternative to the word cult, which is often considered derogatory." I'll grant that the modern expression of MJ is a subculture, even syncretic, but it is not a cult (as the fundamental tenets basically align closely with established religions, i.e. not heretical, seen as another sect of the same religion by a large number of leaders of other sects), and as it is not new (messianism within Judaism historically goes back to at least the founding of Christianity, obviously), I see no support for listing or labeling MJ in this fashion. Using a positive view of NRM definition, this label adds nothing that "subculture of religious movement" does not already. Using a negative view (i.e. "NRM == cult"), it's just as pejorative. It's just another attempt to delegitimize MJ in the eyes of Wikipedia readers. ⇔ ChristTrekker 21:01, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree that MJ is not a cult. It's placement in the category is, as you say, based on its modern syncretic expression. I think it may be properly classified as a sect of Christianity and this is the category that encompasses subgroups of Christianity. While your concern is reasonable, if you look at the Category:Christian new religious movements, you see entries such as the Witnesses and the Mormons, neither of which would be classified as a cult. So I think that the category is not inherently derogatory, nor is putting this article in that group meant that way, of course. I'd appreciate others weighing in on this. If the category is inherently derogatory, perhaps it needs to be revised or deleted. -- Avi (talk) 21:32, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@Avraham: The next step seems to start an RFC. Before I publicize it, I'd appreciate your review, as I've never initiated one before. ⇔ ChristTrekker 15:40, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
It looks reasonable, understanding that not everyone may agree with John Carter. Once it starts, I suggest you drop notices on the appropriate wikiprojects (WP:RELIGION, WP:X, WP:JEW, etc.) so we can get a broad response. Thanks! -- Avi (talk) 16:03, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
I note that the MJs are included as a separate entity in at least one of the encyclopedic reference sources about NRMs, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi's The illustrated encyclopedia of active new religions, sects, and cults, which, admittedly, given its age, doesn't use the term NRM but just the older "new religions." However, I think that source is probably sufficient enough to justify the use of the category. I also find the objections to the use of the category to be perhaps based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT and perhaps in conflict with WP:CENSOR. We tend to say what the best independent sources say, and use the terms they use, and, so far as I can determine, that source, and probably others, is sufficient for inclusion of the category and description. John Carter (talk) 18:11, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Defining Terminology - 'Messianic Judaism' and 'Messianic' in mainstream(non-Judiased Christian) Judaism and Israeli Press[edit]

As an encyclopedic article it might be worth a paragraph mentioning the difference between the use of similar terminology in both Judaized Christian messianic movements and messianic aspirational language used by normative(aka not believers in any messianic or divine understanding of Jesus/Yeshuh) orthodox Jews as well as in everyday language of the Israeli press often in reference to the right wing or utopian plans. Even a sentence in the intro mentioning that to be an actively Orthodox Jew one must be messianic by the orthodox Jewish definition, as seen in Rambam's universally accepted 13 principles of Jewish faith #12 translates to "I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come."http://themitzvahproject.org/the-thirteen-principles-of-faith would add useful information to the article outside of the singular focus on Judaised Christian movements.שלמה 109.67.24.171 (talk) 13:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

The hatnote at the top of the article takes care of that. -- Avi (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

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