Talk:Minimum wage

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Former good article nominee Minimum wage was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Too US centric[edit]

This article is seen from the point of the U.S there is a near consensus in the UK that the minimum wage did not reduce employment levels. Indeed the UK currently has the lowest levels of unemployment ever despite massive increases in the minimum wage in the last few years.

Please add only relevant critiques[edit]

So, apparently someone went in and added a bunch of "However" weasel rebuttals to some of the recent studies. There's nothing wrong with addressing all sides of the argument, but don't add a contrary statement supported by nothing but a bunch of news articles editorializing. I cleaned up the one that was actually relevant and tried to properly represent (in a short fashion) what the much longer blog post said regarding the story. The "references" that were either ad hominem attacks on the authors or general criticisms of minimum wage opponents in general were removed. 12.208.4.65 (talk) 15:59, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Religious Classification[edit]

Where in this article should the religious support of the minimum wage be added, toward the bottom or the top? Also, there may be a special tax designation for religious supporters of the minimum wage in countries which support religious minorities. Should be here but need to know where to place in article. Please advise. 24.176.43.70 (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Pros and Cons[edit]

  • This section is repeated from Archive 7, due to the recent comment. Lou Sander (talk) 13:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

This one seems to be an opinion, rather than something that is obviously a disadvantage:

* Encourages the automation of industry.[44] DOR (HK) (talk) 06:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Why would this be an opinion? A min-wage raises the relative cost of low-skill labor to capital (machinery). This incentivizes firms to substitute away from labor and into capital. This is basic isocost/isoquant curve analysis and seems completely obvious to me. The obvious parallel layman's argument would be that if the US raised the min-wage to $15 per hour, McDonalds would invest in consumer operated registers (like self-checkout machines at the grocery store). 99.3.163.55 (talk) 07:52, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I believe the opinion s/he is identifying is "automation is a disadvantage." One might believe that encouraging automation is an advantage. The article currently states that one original intent of the American minimum wage was to eliminate less automated production methods in the South that relied on low wage labor. Zubon (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Also this:

  • Increased job growth and creation.[1][2]

The two given sources merely mentioned correlation between minimum wages and job growth. Correlation is not causation so this could be misleading and I have removed this point. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation.

Recent Changes and Added Studies[edit]

I've attempted to add and/or flesh out sections subsequent to Card and Krueger to show that the debate is still ongoing within the field. I removed the section on Reactions section, which essentially lacked any substantive rebuttals/affirmations on the evidence or methodology. I took out a bit on the 2008 study by Neumark because it's already addressed a few paragraphs above.

This article still needs a lot of work (to start with, the section on meta-analysis appears to need some tone fixes,) but I'm afraid a complete overhaul is a little beyond my abilities.

12.208.4.65 (talk) 21:10, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree. There is tons of information missing from the following papers:
Dube, Lester, and Reich (2010) "Minimum Wage Effects Across State Borders: Estimates Using Contiguous Counties" The Review of Economics and Statistics, November 2010, 92(4): 945–964
Allegretto, Dube, and Reich (2011) "Do Minimum Wages Really Reduce Teen Employment? Accounting for Heterogeneity and Selectivity in State Panel Data" Industrial Relations, Vol. 50, No. 2 pg 205-240
Hirsch, Kaufman, Zelenska (November 2011) "Minimum Wage Channels of Adjustment" Discussion Paper No. 6132 ITZ
Schmitt, John (February 2013) published "Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?" Center for Economic and Policy Research--216.31.124.188 (talk) 16:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Dube, Lester, and Reich (2010) is cited in footnote 52, they're just not mentioned by name in the article. 12.208.4.65 (talk) 21:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
"Further application of the methodology used by Card and Krueger by other researchers yielded results similar to their original findings, across additional data sets." That sentence is so vague you could slap the other three papers as references and call it a day.
"First, minimum wages may simply have no effect on employment... Second, minimum wage effects might exist, but they may be too difficult to detect and/or are very small." That is a quote straight from Dube, Lester, and Reich (2010) WHERE IS THAT in this article, hmm?--
While we are at it where is the FACT that "Calculated in real 2012 dollars, the 1968 minimum wage was the highest at $10.51." (Oregon State University anth484 online reference) in the article?--216.31.124.161 (talk) 03:28, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Also Consider[edit]

I find the discussion of Card and Kruger, and subsequent developments, to be lacking. In particular I would reference:

Foundations and Trends in Microeconomics Vol. 3, No 1–2 (2007) 1–182 �c 2007 D. Neumark and W. L. Wascher DOI: 10.1561/0700000015 Minimum Wages and Employment David Neumark1 and William L. Wascher2

Revisiting the Minimum Wage-Employment Debate: Throwing Out the Baby with the Bathwater? IZA DP No. 7166 January 2013 David Neumark J.M. Ian Salas William Wascher — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxparrish (talkcontribs) 02:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Conflicting information about first country to have minimum wage[edit]

It says Australia in the first Paragraph, but then further down it says New Zealand. Reference material also supports New Zealand (http://www.reference.com/browse/minimum+wage?s=ts) Willuknight (talk) 22:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

The information has been updated with a reference. Guest2625 (talk) 11:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

New analysis worthy of consideration[edit]

“The voluminous literature on minimum wages offers little consensus on the extent to which a wage floor impacts employment. For both theoretical and econometric reasons, we argue that the effect of the minimum wage should be more apparent in new employment growth than in employment levels. In addition, we conduct a simulation showing that the common practice of including state-specific time trends will attenuate the measured effects of the minimum wage on employment if the true effect is in fact on the rate of job growth. Using a long state-year panel on the population of private-sector employers in the United States, we find that the minimum wage reduces net job growth, primarily through its effect on job creation by expanding establishments.” Effects of the Minimum Wage on Employment Dynamics by Jonathan Meer and Jeremy West. NBER Working Paper No. 19262. Issued in August 2013 [1] DOR (HK) (talk) 07:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Add hyperlink to pdf of citation[edit]

Can someone add the pdf for "States with Minimum Wages above the Federal Level have had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth " http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnTsams (talkcontribs) 21:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Labour series[edit]

I removed the "Labour Series" tag from the Basic income section, since it is not a part of that series. This tag was questioned some time ago, with no response for many months. The question is now part of Archive 7. Lou Sander (talk) 14:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Minimum Wage Affected[edit]

There are no definitions of this concept on the internet that I can easily find, maybe it should go here. Jdblick (talk) 19:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Not encyclopedic[edit]

No wonder this wasn't nominated as a good article. Wiki articles SHOULD NOT READ like a damn forum thread!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by John11235813 (talkcontribs) 07:00, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Changes by Guest2625[edit]

Guest2625 will need to explain these changes – [2]. Why is the theory propounded by Card and Krueger (which is more suitable for their section) been moved back to the section on the theory of "supply and demand"? It doesn't make sense to me. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 15:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Monopsony and minimum wage is not some economic theory that is specific to Card and Kreuger. It was proposed long before Card and Krueger's work and is a standard economic theory that is taught in mainstream economics textbooks. That is why I added reference [40]. Please take a look at the reference. Here is a link to that textbook reference. Guest2625 (talk) 10:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't think the characterization of the "monopsony" and "minimum wage" issue as a part of some "modern" economic theory is an accurate description. Is there a school of "modern economics" that is somehow differentiated from the vanilla supply-and-demand "textbook" economics? There is no way I can access that particular text-book on economics, so can you please produce some evidence that is publicly available and categorically establishes what "modern economic theory" says? Interesting that you use an arbitrary term "modern" to describe a particular theory that throws around vague terms such as "excessive" and "reasonable" while the traditional supply and demand model is relegated to the status of "textbook" (meaning simplistic?) economics. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 16:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

More Pros and Cons[edit]

Under cons, information regarding the living wage needs to be included because a con of minimum wage law is that it is less than the living wage. For example, in the US a person working full-time for the minimum wage earns $15,080 a year which is below the living wage. The living wage is composed of seven parts: housing, food, child care, transportation, health care, taxes, and necessities. This results in a con for minimum wage laws because it is not providing enough to survive.

Under cons, a reason for being against minimum wage laws would be a lower level of skill acquisition and little to no further education completed. This means that people will be forced to work minimum wage jobs instead of moving up due to the fact they have no skills and no education.

Under cons, one example is "Hurts small business more than large business". A recent study found that 61% of small business employers favor the minimum wage. Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). Sklar,Holly. "St Louis Post Dispatch: Holly Sklar, Small Businesses Want Minimum Wage Increase." Business for a Fair Minimum Wage. N.p.,n.d. Web. 29 Sept. 2014.

Under pros, it is said that the minimum wage reduces poverty. Statistics and factual information needs to be added because according to other sources minimum wage is not effective at alleviating poverty. Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). Kosteas, Vasilios D. "Minimum Wage." Encyclopedia of World Poverty. Ed. M. Odekon.Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, Inc., 2006. 719-21. SAGE knowledge. Web.

Suene34 (talk) 02:32, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The citation you give for the 61% study just refers to an opinion article in a newspaper, and the author of that article fails to properly cite or really give any information at all regarding the supposed study. And even if you could find the actual study, a survey of opinions does not disprove a falsifiable statement.
But regardless of that, the way the article is currently structured, the Pro and Con section merely lists arguments made by supporters and opponents, many of which are mutually exclusive. The place to discuss the accuracy of those arguments is in the other sections. I'm not necessarily a fan of this structure, but it is the structure we currently have, and changing it would probably require a substantial rewrite. If all you're interested in doing is addressing specific arguments in the pro/con section, then those edits shouldn't be made within the section for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.125.24.19 (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

FDR quote[edit]

The quote from FDR at the end of the History section, though it seems to be properly sourced, appears without any discussion, and is therefore IMHO unencyclopedic. Also it powerfully expresses the non-neutral point of view that it is improper to pay less than living wages. I propose to delete it. Lou Sander (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the quote. There is already one quote in the section, and for information and layout, two quotes is not necessary. Guest2625 (talk) 05:29, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Classical model[edit]

The classical Land/Labour/Capital analysis of the minimum wage actually gives quite a sensible explanation of why the minimum wage causes unemployment in some cases but not in others. It would be worth adding to the article. Anybody know where we might get references for it? -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:29, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits[edit]

An editor recently claimed that increased employment is a benefit of the minimum wage. The references do not say that. They merely say that in some cases, an increase in minimum wage was accompanied by an increase in employment. No causality was implied, and the references caution against it. Lou Sander (talk) 21:31, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

An anonymous editor recently removed some properly sourced material by George Stigler, claiming, without sourcing, that it is outdated and discredited. I have reverted the edit, pending some reliably sourced support for those claims. Lou Sander (talk) 22:53, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Ricardo material[edit]

David Ricardo, the economist of 18th century who advocated against the interference of legislation in market mechanism also acknowledged the concept of minimum wages (a contemporary term to Ricardo’s ‘natural prices’).[3] Ricardo's The Principles of Political Economy and Taxationmentions, “LABOUR, like all other things which are purchased and sold, and which may be increased or diminished in quantity, has its natural price and its market price. The natural price of labour is that price which is necessary to enable the labourers, one with another, to subsist and to perpetuate their race. While, the market price of labour is the price which is really paid for it, from the natural operation of the proportion of the supply to the demand.”

References

I have placed the above nonsourced material that was placed in the article last week here on the talk page. --Guest2625 (talk) 17:41, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

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Dr. Brown's comment on this article[edit]

Dr. Brown has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:


This is a good coverage of a big field, but is rather USA centred. It would be appropriate, for example, to have a comment on the very extensive and authoritative UK evidence on the impact of its National Minimum Wage since 1999. Richard Dickens would be good on that as a current academic member of the Low Pay Commission which sets it.

In the theoretical section it would be helpful to summarise the argument (used at times by the UK Low Pay Commission) that the major sources of productivity growth of less-skilled labour are demand-side determined - that is, labour productivity owes more to how well it is trained, managed and equipped, so that gradual increases in the minimum wage relative to average wages encourage employers to manage better and raise productivity. Since most product markets for minimum wage labour are unaffected by international competition, and many are (as the note says) relatively price-inelastic, economies can manage substantial increases in minimum wages without employment loss provided they are both gradual and enforced (in order to maintain employer credibility).


We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

Dr. Brown has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:


  • Reference : Brown, W., 2002. "The Operation of the Low Pay Commission," Cambridge Working Papers in Economics 0223, Faculty of Economics, University of Cambridge.

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 13:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Schnabel's comment on this article[edit]

Dr. Schnabel has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:


Sometimes too much focused on the US; the introduction of minimum wages in the UK and Germany also offer interesting insights, as does the (bad) experience of France.


We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

Dr. Schnabel has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:


  • Reference : Brenzel, Hanna & Gartner, Hermann & Schnabel, Claus, 2013. "Wage Posting or Wage Bargaining? Evidence from the Employers' Side," IZA Discussion Papers 7624, Institute for the Study of Labor (IZA).

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 13:39, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Minimum wages and Living wages[edit]

I just removed this recent addition as it appears fringey, and I'm sure that some of the refs are being used incorrectly. Discussion please. LK (talk) 13:50, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Living wage is the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.[1] In some cases the minimum wage can be lower than cost of living (living wage), in this scenario, and instead of gaining money, workers loose money every month that work for a company, and employees decay in a poverty trap,[2] and governments become servants to banks while force minimal wage workers (the biggest proportion of workers) to increasing loans and credit request whit high interest rates in order to subsist converting them initially in poor workers[3] since them subsist bellow the poverty line since they have an income deficit and at the end they loose their houses by foreclosure when taken by banks or lenders and they become homelessness. To avoid those scenarios minimum wage should be over the living wage line.

IMHO the whole thing is very weak and not worth trying to save. Lou Sander (talk) 19:10, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Countries without minimum wage[edit]

There's a section "Countries without minimum wage" on Minimum wage in the United States that seems misplaced there, but could fit here. Ablaut490 (talk) 22:10, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion can be found at Talk:Minimum wage in the United States#Section "Countries without minimum wage" seems misplaced here. Please discuss there rather than here so we only have one discussion ongoing. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 22:20, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

"Neutral Point of view"[edit]

The (controversial) claim that "progressives" enacted minimum wages laws to hurt the South is not supported by the article. It is instead claiming that the progressive movement was based on bigotry. Yet, the civil rights movement supported minimum wage laws.

This is obviously a heavily biased source from a "conservative think tank".

The phrase in the text containing this issue is:

was intentionally set at a high, national level to render low-technology, low-wage factories in the South obsolete.[4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Livingfractal (talkcontribs) 20:24, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

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Empirical studies[edit]

You should cover more information about empirical studies. And expand more about the aspect of minimum wage you have study. You can explain the different effect of minimum wage.

"Simple" and "Basic" models[edit]

These terms "simple" and "basic" describing the economic models are not a neutral point of view - it implies that economics is not an effective science in explaining the economy, and there is no source given.

I have removed the "simple" term and recommend the removal of all "basic" descriptions with regards to the models.

If you have a source saying these models are ineffective because they're too "simple" or "basic" then please provide it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agreed1179 (talkcontribs) 16:44, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  1. ^ Alderman, Liz; Greenhouse, Steven (October 27, 2014). "Fast Food in Denmark Serves Something Atypical: Living Wages". New York Times. Retrieved October 27, 2014. 
  2. ^ Costas Azariadis and John Stachurski, "Poverty Traps," Handbook of Economic Growth, 2005, 326.
  3. ^ DeNavas-Walt, Carla; Bernadette D. Proctor; Jessica C. Smith. "Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2009" (PDF). US Census Bureau. Retrieved 14 December 2011. 
  4. ^ Berstein, David E., & Leonard, Thomas C., Excluding Unfit Workers: Social Control Versus Social Justice in the Age of Economic Reform, Law and Contemporary Problems, Vol. 72, No. 3, 2009 [3]