Talk:Money Heist/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Money Heist

I’m surprised a discussion on the article title hasn’t already been had. I haven’t looked in detail yet but it seems that the common name for this show, for the English Wikipedia, should be Money Heist. This seems similar to Gomorrah over the Italian Gomorra. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:05, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Moved to Money Heist, per WP:COMMONNAME in English. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:11, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Episodes and ratings table

According to the Chairhandlers, the classification is totally unnecessary, it eliminates it without giving an explanation. However, it replaces episode titles without providing a source. I checked the official page of the series and none of the titles are there. Where were they obtained then?.--Philip J Frytc 11:46, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

We return to the same thing, the user Chairhandlers withdraws information without arriving at a consensus or explaining why their actions, only states that it is unnecessary information.--Philip J FryTalk 00:57, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

The heading says ratings, yet the table does not show ratings? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:01, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Rating tables are unnecessary for 1-season series. They are only necessary when a series has 2 seasons or more. Please, read here, here, and here. - Chairhandlers ^{(Talk to Me!)} 10:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, in none of the links you have provided, what you say is mentioned. Since you started to delete the information, you have not given any valid reason. First you started eliminating without giving any explanation. You only said this. Restore; unnecessary, unsourced info. And since then you've only looked for pathetic excuses to eliminate the ratings table.--Philip J FryTalk 14:37, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

How is this a ratings table anyway? It only shows viewers, which we already have in the episodes table. So it is looking pretty unnecessary to me. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe we should take it to WP:TV. It seems you're very insistent and won't understand the issue here or my "pathetic" edits that follow WP:MOS. - Chairhandlers ^{(Talk to Me!)} 11:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

You can do what you want, but until now you have not shown absolutely anything that indicates that my edition is incorrect, because the links you show do not speak of this in particular.--Philip J FryTalk 10:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

"Part" vs "Season"

Currently we state that the series is still in its first season albeit it soon beginning its third "Part", within its third year. Is it actually established that this sreies runs in seasons, or are they just labelling their seasons as parts? Maybe its a Spanish thing? While Netflix also uses the "Part" terminology, they definetly treat it is seasons, so should we do that too? Lordtobi (✉) 20:12, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

It is usually referred to as "part", and is the official terminology. It may be similar to Breaking Bad (season 5) and The Sopranos (season 6), how there are two parts within that particular season, the only difference here is that Money Heist is doing it from the start. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:20, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I am aware that "Part" of the official terming here, but I believe that "Season" is not. My question is if we should get rid of the "Season" terminology from the article and use the Parts as Seasons instead. Lordtobi (✉) 18:02, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Well, it's still classified as one season, split into 3 parts, which I think is how the terminology is used on the article currently. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:27, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

I would say part 3 (and possibly together with 4) is a second season. E.g. El Pais calls part 3 it a new season "temporada", after the first season, which Netflix divided into two parts. [1] Ausir (talk) 22:18, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

It's a bit muddled, though, since even a lot of Spanish media is calling it the "third season", and here one of the writers of the show calls part 4 "cuarta temporada" (season 4): https://twitter.com/jgomezsantander/status/1153030658299748354 Here executive prouducer Jesus Colmenar calls part 3 "third season" too: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/tele/20190718/la-casa-papel-somos-frikis-7557292 Ausir (talk) 22:44, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

They might do it just for simplicity's sake. I'm in agreement with 2 seasons. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:48, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Part 4

Anyone see reliable/official sources for a Part 4? The Spanish Wikipedia already claims this, but no sources are given. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:40, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Here: [2] Ausir (talk)

Not yet Tamether (talk) 11:29, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Major expansion ahead

Hi. Just letting people know that I intend to expand this article. I am still in the sandbox stage (User:Sgeureka/Sandbox), but it seems there is enough material to give this article a complete overhaul. (Side note: I could have sworn I read in exactly one reliable online newspaper that filming of part 3 started in November 2018, but I can no longer find that source and actually doubt that date now. Any help is appreciated in this matter.) – sgeureka ^t•c 14:14, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Stupid me, it was already in the wikipedia article and it was October (no wonder Google didn't come up with anything). – sgeureka ^t•c 22:51, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Character names in Lead

I strongly disagree with listing the many character names in the lead. It literally feels like bombarding the reader with 32(!) actor and character names within just one paragraph. These names are (partially or fully) repeated right next to it in the info box and the Characters section right below. Of the top of my head, see The Wire, Lost (TV series) and Mad Men with a large main cast where none(?) of the characters+actors are named in the lead prose. If readibility is the aim, then these names should go from the lead. – sgeureka ^t•c 23:49, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I was looking at Breaking Bad and The Sopranos, but I see what you mean with a show with a large cast. The others have a very large cast with complex story (Money Heist although somewhat large isn't nearly as large), however Mad Men does list the main character's name. I will rejig and let me know if it is better. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 00:24, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I am fine with your edit. I also tried to include somewhere that the code-names are based on city names, but all my solutions made it sound cumbersome and like an excessive detail (although it isn't, really). Maybe you have an idea. Thank you for the collaboration. – sgeureka ^t•c 02:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sgeureka: Could you clarify the sentence in the season 1 summary: "The robbers have difficulties sticking to the pre-defined rules and face isolation, mutiny, uncovering and extradiction to the police, all while suffering from an increasing lack of sleep." 'extradiction' is not a word, and I'm not sure what it should be in this context. Isolation and mutiny make sense, but the last two words I'm am puzzled over, as well as it's relationship to the police? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:23, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I meant that Berlin & Co "handed over" Tokyo to the police who want her. My dictionary couldn't really give me a familiar word for this action (German: "die Auslieferung"/"ausliefern"). – sgeureka ^t•c 23:26, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Still not exactly sure what it is, but I fixed it another way that I think should be satisfactory. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:33, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I meant something like from the Julian Assange article, "...said that they were just a pretext for him to be extradited from Sweden to the United States because of his role in publishing secret American documents". I am not sure if this word also applies to the robber situation, but in my language, it means that one player (Sweden/"Berlin") has another player (Assange/Tokyo) held captive, and they hand over this person to a third player (the US/the police) who really want to punish that player for his deeds. It's too late now for more coherent input from me. :-) – sgeureka ^t•c 00:03, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I suspected you might've meant extradited, but it wouldn't apply here because Tokyo is already a Spanish citizen and being in Spain, she wouldn't be extradited as that means, to my knowledge, is when one police force in one country gives that captured person to that of another country. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 00:06, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay then, I learned something new. Citizenship status is not a requirement for the German word for extradited, just that there are three teams at opposite sides fighting each other. – sgeureka ^t•c 00:12, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Did filming really take place at the Bank of Spain

The available sources seem to indicate that filming took place at the Bank of Spain for part 3, but somehow I get the feeling this was not really the case and people just spoke figuratively.

• variety.com "...‘La Casa’ has always had complicated shots. This time round they’re even more complicated,”"says Pina, noting that Part 4 is currently shooting 45-minute episodes in 21-23 days, compared to the 14 days used to lens Parts 1 and 2’s 70-minute episodes. But they needed that. Shooting in the Bank of Spain, given the security measures, meant a huge effort in planning shots, Pina comments."
• elpais.com, via Google Translate: "Only by stepping on the two sets of 1,200 square meters, in the Netflix production center in Tres Cantos, one can get an idea of ​​how this production has grown. According to the art director, Abdón Alcañiz, this space triples that of the set of the previous installments. We are in the Bank of Spain, but it has nothing to do with the original building, located in the Alcalá street in Madrid. In this version, there are granite statues in the form of angels, gray walls and columns and an architecture "with a lot of dictatorial flavor" and inspired by the Valley of the Fallen, in the words of Alcáñiz. The exteriors of this supposed Bank of Spain were recorded in the building of the Ministry of Development, in the Spanish capital."

Input? Is it better to remove the claim that limited filming did take place at the Bank of Spain? – sgeureka ^t•c 14:18, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

"Shooting in the Bank of Spain, given the security measures, meant a huge effort in planning shots, Pina comments." If this is a comment by Pina, then it would seem that some filming did take place there. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:38, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Latino??

The series subverts the heist genre by being told from the perspective of a female (Tokyo) and having a strong Latino identity, where emotional dynamics offset the strategic perfect crime.

This takes place in Spain, not in Latin America. How does Latino make sense?

Hispanic and Latino are often used interchangeably though they actually mean two different things. Hispanic refers to people who speak Spanish and/or are descended from Spanish-speaking populations, while Latino refers to people who are from or descended from people from Latin America. https://www.hnmagazine.com/2017/09/difference-hispanic-latino/

Peter K Burian (talk) 00:51, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, "Latino"/"Latina" is what the Spanish creators and European-Spanish sources say over[3] and over[4] and over[5]. I am not aware of a better word in this context, but I am also not saying there isn't one. – sgeureka ^t•c 06:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

"Part" vs "Season" #2

(Also see the discussion #"Part" vs "Season" from October 2018 above.)

From a technical background, I agree that its two seasons of two parts each. But (I guess) everyone of us here is watching the show on Netflix, where it's clearly divided into (currently) 3 parts. Nearly all of the sources I came across refer to the story units as 3 (or 4) parts, not 2 seasons. I therefore think that the article should avoid any mention of "seasons" and always go for "parts", except for the Episode List and Episode Season table. I don't really know how to deal with the "num_seasons" or "num_series" parameter of {{Infobox television}} though; maybe say "num_seasons=2 (3 parts)". Opinions? – sgeureka ^t•c 14:49, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Copied here for the moment, because I don't know where to put it in the article, but the Lead is not the place: (Some Reviews refer to the parts as Seasons.) – sgeureka ^t•c 14:51, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Putting (part 3) in brackets in the infobox works for me since we still get IPs changing it every day despite our hidden note. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Nice to meet you here, Vaselineeeeeeee; we usually meet when editing articles on an entirely different topic. Thanks for explaining the issue of "seasons" (no Season 3 per se) in one of the edits you did. Peter K Burian (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

The use of the terms Season, Part and Series becomes confusing.

In my edit, I capitalized the word Part and did not use the terms Season or Series when discussing a Part. (Not sure what subsequent edits did to that.)

Netflix did confuse the issue by re-cutting episodes, making more of them from the original content, and then distributing them over three Parts. (The original series had two Seasons in Spain.) I hope that my edit has helped to some extent, but further fine-tuning is necessary. Peter K Burian (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I have to agree they have made it cumbersome with the season/parts situation. @Sgeureka: We should avoid use of "season" and go for "parts", but I think to answer some of the questions of readers or editors, a line somewhere in the lead or acquisition section, should describe that season 1 makes up parts 1 and 2 and season 2 makes up parts 3 and 4 - and then possibly include that some sources call it other things. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:26, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I added Ref+Note labels to List of Money Heist episodes#Series overview (transcluded here) to deal with this issue, i.e. where it matters. However, I am coming more and more to the conclusion that it is wikipedia that wants to enforce the "2 parts make 1 season" rule (for good, technical reasons), but no-one else. So we'll have a hard time keeping the season/part distinction intact, when no one outside of wikipedia uses it. I'll see if the current "solution" sticks. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:09, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Possible upgrades

I see this article is a WP:GAN now. Here are a few possible upgrades, but I am not sure if enough sources of relevance are available to actually do them:

• Casting information: I actually haven't come across any information for this for season 1, and season 2 is also barebones for the new characters. I only know that some of the actors appeared in Pina's Locked Up (TV series) before, and the Professor actor appears in Pina's new El embarcadero (TV series) afterwards.  Done
• Themes section: This could be about feminism, the unclear state of villany and explore why the show resonated with the audience in Mediterranean Europe and the Latin world. Parts of the "Conception" and "Viewership and impact" sections might be moved there. But this is still in my sandbox stage, and might not work at all.
• Awards: I see a lot of the actors got Spain-based awards/nominations for Money Heist. Unfortunately, these Spain-based awards do not have articles, so I don't know their relevance, and actual, reliable references might be hard to find.  Done

I'll keep working on this, but with no guaranty and as time permits. – sgeureka ^t•c 06:57, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

• Ratings - no reviews on Rotten Tomoatoes, but we have a pretty strong critical response section without it

Don't worry about the GAN, I saw your comment get removed, it will take months before it is picked up, that's why I wanted to have it in there now. There is still more work to be done, but not a whole lot. I will add the rest of the awards - ones with en wiki pages. Casting information is always hard to find, but I hope you do find something, I will take a look as well. Your themes section looks good so far. I also think a ratings section would be nice, or incorporated into critical reception - however there are not enough reviews on Rotten Tomoatoes to calculate a score. If the information is simply not there, there is nothing we can do. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:49, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sgeureka: I found casting info for part 1 and 2 [6] [7]. for part 3 saying who is continuing and who is new [8] [9]Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:28, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Per this youtube video (see the translations in the comments or use the auto-translate subtitles), Alba Flores was asked directly by Pina if she wanted to be in LCDP. I couldn't find the original source video or a news article with this information though. – sgeureka ^t•c 07:37, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sgeureka: Neymar in recurring cast? Really? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I've been second-guessing that decision as well. A separate (and one-name) "Guest star" section seemed (and still seems) overkill, and until two days ago I erroneously thought "recurring" just meant "more than once". His name is already/also in the Casting section where it belongs. I don't really care where else he appears or doesn't appear in the article, so be my guest. – sgeureka ^t•c 21:23, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw where you talked about his name in casting, that is the appropriate way. If we're not going to list other characters that appear a couple times, then I don't see the need to list him in the characters section in recurring or in alone a guest section. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:45, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Use "Money Heist" or "La Casa de Papel" for text in body?

I want the article to be more consistant when refering to the show. The article plus the show in the English-speaking world are called "Money Heist", so the logical way would be to always prefer "Money Heist" over "La Casa de Papel" in the article body. However, the vast majority of the Production info concerns the Antena 3 era, where "La Casa de Papel" was the only thing that existed, and the (Spanish-speaking) sources reflect that, although they switch between different capitalizations ("La Casa de Papel" vs "La casa de papel", see the references). In the same spirit, to me, "Money Heist" refers exclusively to the Netflix era, so that term only really belongs in the "Netflix acquisition and renewal" and "Reception" section. English-speaking publications and fandom often use both titles or even prefer LCDP over MH. I'm not in a hurry, and so far I tend to use "La Casa de Papel" for the Antena 3 era and "Money Heist" for Netflix. Opinions for how to go forward? – sgeureka ^t•c 11:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

The whole show in the English-speaking world is called Money Heist because that it is essentially through Netflix that we found the show. I have seen some English sources use the Spanish title before, and usually also say something like "aka Money Heist". I wouldn't say Money Heist refers only to the Netflix era, as wouldn't the show on Spanish Netflix still be referred to as La Casa de papel? Where appropriate, the show could just be referred to as the series or the show. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 12:48, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Used "the series" in appropriate areas to address same concern by review. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:21, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Presentation of series overview

Money Heist has a pretty unusual history of release (episode numbering) and naming (season vs. part). In the past few weeks, I made several[10][11][12][13] changes to the series overview table to find the best presentation of that information. The version[14] with which I was finally satisfied [enough] had the following rationales:

1. It should work for Money Heist (transclusion) as well as List of Money Heist episodes.
2. It should present all relevant info at one glance, and not as sentences-long prose that no-one bothers to read, or spread across several print pages like end-of-page notes, because... (next point)
3. It should stop those annoying drive-by edits that regularly changed the episode numbers and equaled parts to seasons (because, yes, there are several ways one could do it, and hidden comments didn't help), also see Talk:Money_Heist#"Part"_vs_"Season"_#2
4. I preferred some kind of Notes better than Hatnotes because Hatnotes appear to be reserved for technical or wiki-related conventions.

The new version[15] by User:Alex 21 separates the information into several print pages again, which I find a bad approach per #2. (Though it fixed the duplication of "a" and "b" notes for now, which can also be fixed through other means.) I prefer my old version, but I am also completely open to other solutions, maybe even something like the German wikipedia[16]. Opinions? – sgeureka ^t•c 17:28, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I personally prefer going the note way as well because it makes the table look less clunky and is also better to keep it tight for mobile view. Regarding the drive by edits that change the season number, that isn't really an issue for the table because all the edits I've seen have changed the number in the infobox. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, it does have a unusual history... 1) My edits still work for both articles. 2) All the information is still available at a glance, hatnotes are easily accessible through both PC view and mobile view without needing to go to the Notes section itself. 3) My edits have done nothing to either change the season/part/episode numbers, nor have they contributed to such edits by drive-by editors. 4) Hatnotes have never been reserved for "technical or wiki-related conventions", they're used all throughout, at least, the WikiProject Television articles, and thousands of other articles as well.

The {{Series overview}} template's information columns are for small details of information, not full sentences that force the table to an unwieldy height when viewed on a mobile, given the minimal width allowable for it to be displayed (not "tight" at all). Barring the info column, the only difference between the two linked series overviews ([17], [18]) are where the notes and references are displayed, and that the hatnotes are where they belong - at the bottom of the page, exactly like the references section (we don't put a {{reflist}} template in the middle of the page for the same reason).

(Ping me if you've got any questions; the page isn't on my watchlist.) -- /Alex/₂₁ 01:22, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

@Alex 21 and Vaselineeeeeeee: I've re-discovered yesterday that hovering the mouse over a note/ref-link opens a small preview window that in this case says Some publications refer to "part" as "season". This is good enough for my "at one glance" concerns. I'll think about a solution with hatnotes, but this is not a primary concern for me anytime soon, and I don't know when (or if) I'll get back to this. Thank you for your input. – sgeureka ^t•c 06:35, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Álex.Pina.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:36, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

(To be) Removed: interesting bits where the sources are unclear or contradicting

I'll leave the bolded material below out of the article because I can't tell the truth, but it might be added later when other sources shed some light. I may still add more to this list during my final expansion and clean-up drive.

• About production length: “That’s how it was viable,” Pina says. “It was created in five months. We started writing and each week we delivered the script. Production was a race against the clock.”[19] - Does this refer to pre-production of part 1, or the filming period of parts 1+2?

 Resolved Actual filming lasted for 7 months,[20] so this means five months of pre-production. – sgeureka ^t•c 04:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• About collaboration: The producer responsible for 'La casa de papel', as we have been informed, before even filming the first episodes, contacted the aforementioned factory to obtain advice from the same for the creation of the plot. Upon learning the central axis of the story, neither the National Currency and Stamp Factory nor the Bank of Spain wanted to collaborate with them. Thus closing any type of contact between them."[21] VERSUS "Pina maintained contact with the Mint for specific references. "They have provided us with some technical questions that we needed; data related to the production of money," reveals the producer, whose main objective was to provide realism to the plot. To fiction the mass printing of banknotes in the series, a newspaper press has been used, "an apparatus that looks very similar to the one used for printing tickets," confesses the producer, who highlights the difficulty of the process both on a technical level as bureaucratic. "We have asked the Bank of Spain for permission and we have followed its instructions. We have increased the size of the tickets to avoid counterfeiting. Everything requires special permits," Pina reveals. As these are reserved information, producers have not had access to internal security data. "There is a certain secrecy that is normal. For example, the number of vigilantes we have fictioned," says Pina, who on the contrary, has been based on the actual process of the arrival of the paper to the factory to start the series :"[22]

 Removed I've come across a few more sources all claiming that the Mint refused collaboration, and it appears the one and only source claiming otherwise actually confused the Mint with the Bank of Spain. However, there is never much more info than "The Mint refused collaboration because they didn't think a heist show taking place in their building would be a good idea", which is so obvious that this fact may as well be left out. IMO of course. – sgeureka ^t•c 19:57, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

• About filming at the Bank of Spain (already mentioned before): "...‘La Casa’ has always had complicated shots. This time round they’re even more complicated,”"says Pina, noting that Part 4 is currently shooting 45-minute episodes in 21-23 days, compared to the 14 days used to lens Parts 1 and 2’s 70-minute episodes. But they needed that. Shooting in the Bank of Spain, given the security measures, meant a huge effort in planning shots, Pina comments."[23] VERSUS "Only by stepping on the two sets of 1,200 square meters, in the Netflix production center in Tres Cantos, one can get an idea of ​​how this production has grown. According to the art director, Abdón Alcañiz, this space triples that of the set of the previous installments. We are in the Bank of Spain, but it has nothing to do with the original building, located in the Alcalá street in Madrid. In this version, there are granite statues in the form of angels, gray walls and columns and an architecture "with a lot of dictatorial flavor" and inspired by the Valley of the Fallen, in the words of Alcáñiz. The exteriors of this supposed Bank of Spain were recorded in the building of the Ministry of Development, in the Spanish capital."[24]
• About start of filming of part 3: (in July 2018) "Good news for "La casa de papel" fans: filming began on Wednesday, executive producer Jesús Colmenar revealed on his Instagram account. The Spanish Jesús Colmenar used Instagram to reveal the good news. He shared with his followers a photograph of the cover of the series script, in which you can read that it is chapter one, written by Álex Pina and Javie Gómez Santander. "The adventure begins. There is no turning back. You cannot imagine what is to come," the producer wrote on his Instagram account."[25] VERSUS (in October 2018) "The third part of “La Casa de Papel” (“Money Heist”), Netflix’s most-watched non-English language show, is entering production"[26]

 Resolved Itziar Ituño said in in late September 2018 that filming hadn't started yet and didn't even know of the plot and returning actors.[27] – sgeureka ^t•c 07:17, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

– sgeureka ^t•c 21:15, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Original viewership of last episode of part 2: 1.8 million viewers per 2018 source or 1.4 million viewers per 2019 source? – sgeureka ^t•c 06:57, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

 Resolved Berliner Zeitung (23 April 2018) said 1.8 million as well.[28] – sgeureka ^t•c 19:55, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

"Part" vs "Season" #3

A short while ago, I was planning to do something else about the Part vs. Season naming situation in this article, like abolish any mention of "season" and/or add a paragraph about the situation. I no longer pursue those plans, but maybe the following info will be relevant for other parties in the future:

1. The Ranch (TV series) (currently 4 seasons of 7 parts on Netflix) independently found the same solution for this problem like the MH article. Being impartial to that show, I found myself actually liking how its article did it, so it follows that I should like MH's current solution as well.
2. The naming situation is just a hot mess, and there is no right and wrong. Here are some statistics from the first 2/3 of MH's sources: During the original broadcast, Spanish-language third-party publications grouped the episodes of Money Heist into one "temporada" (season) made up of two "partes" (parts) or two "entregas" (installments), used the terms "temporada" and "parte" interchangeably, or acknowledged that the situation could be addressed in several ways. After the renewal, Spanish publications referred to the units as three (or four) "temporadas", two seasons of three (or four) parts total, or used the terms interchangeably. Likewise, English-language publications grouped episodes initially into one season of two parts, and later into three (or four) seasons, three (or four) parts, or used the terms interchangeably. Álex Pina mentioned the first "parte" of the first "temporada", but later referred to the third installment as "temporada".

– sgeureka ^t•c 20:34, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Reflist

Part 4 premiere date

I could track down User:Catherine Adkins's base source for the claim that part 4 premieres in January: cadena3.com, quote (google translated) "The fourth [part] is already signed and has a release date for January, we are very happy," [Rodrigo de la Serna] revealed and spoke of his experience in the successful Spanish series." While I actually believe that January 2020 is a likely release time based on basic math, and Cadena 3 may pass as a reliable source, I do not consider Rodrigo de la Serna to be a reliable source here. I'd be fine with adding to the prose that RdlS said that part 4 would premiere in January 2020, but I have a harder time actually allowing it in the season table, because it doesn't provide the context under which this claim was made. – sgeureka ^t•c 20:11, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we did this at Suburra: Blood on Rome also. A date is expected for X month 2020 let's say, so we can write it in the lead that it is expected, with a reliable source, but definitely not in the season box until an actual day is confirmed with reliable sources. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:56, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how "official" whats-on-netflix.com is (at least it gets some basic facts about part 3 wrong). Anyway, here's a truly official source for 3 April 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Voe2zT92U . Plus there is lavanguardia.com and elperiodico.com. en-sources will likely come up soon. – sgeureka ^t•c 18:39, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Reportings of a renewal of part 5

Several sources that I'd usually respect report that Netflix renewed the series for a fifth part. I also read a fan report that director Jesús Colmenar had tweeted about this, but I can't verify because his twitter account is protected. For the time being, I remain sceptical about this info.

• formulatv.com: es:Fórmula TV (originator 2019-10-14, relevant section via Google Translate) "As FormulaTV has known exclusively, Netflix has renewed 'The House of Paper' for a fifth season of episodes and will continue to have the character embodied by Álvaro Morte, who will once again guide his team in a plan that will put the world on its feet Up one more time. The streaming platform plans to start shooting season 5 in early 2020, which would coincide with the broadcast of the fourth part and the resolution of the great mysteries left by the end of the third. Vancouver Media is already in the pre-production phase of the new episodes and, although the distribution strategy depends on Netflix, it is expected that they will be divided into a fifth and a sixth, as was the case in the previous ones."
• abc.es: ABC re-reporting 2019-10-14
• lavanguardia.com: La Vanguardia re-reporting 2019-10-15

– sgeureka ^t•c 19:06, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Very interesting. I'd say hold out until after part 4 is released as there will probably be even more info that comes out regarding part 5. That's just my thoughts though. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Similar to how other TV show articles have a "Cancellation and future" section, I've now added a "Future" section to hold all available info about part 4 and part 5. I think this is the best way to go forward at this time, regardless of if the third-party reports turn out to be true. Also (and this may only be relevant if there will actually be a fifth part), I remember reading comments by Itziar Ituño and (I believe) Rodrigo de la Serna a few weeks ago that they kind-of-believe that there will be a part 5, but I'd have to dig up the sources, which I will not do at this point. – sgeureka ^t•c 07:53, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Heads up: BLUPER (part of El Español) just made claims that Netflix "has given the green light to a fifth and sixth [part], as BLUPER has learned exclusively."[29] I consider this unreliable though (or at least not reliable enough; it's too fishy for various reasons). – sgeureka ^t•c 16:39, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Ituño COVID-19

@Sgeureka: Ituño confirmed today that she tested positive for COVID-19 with "filming for the fourth season already starting". This is curious since the fourth "season" or part is being released within weeks; they probably mean 'season' 5? (See last post). Have you seen any other sources and/or should this be included here if it affects filming? Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:54, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: Thanks fo alerting me. I've been intending to get back into wiki-improving the Money Heist en.wiki coverage for a while now, but all my free time has been going into Spanish studies (because nerd-me wants to be ready to understand MH in Spanish without subtitles in two weeks). I'll dive into Google News this evening to see what's relevant. – sgeureka ^t•c 10:41, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

The linked article is from last summer, when they were indeed filming part 4. Meanwhile, Alvaro Morte said in an interview today that he was still in Prague filming The Wheel of Time (TV series), and that filming of part 4 ended long ago (i.e. non-news). At the moment, I don't feel Ituño's health is of concern for this article. I found nothing else worthwhile about the show on Google News for the last 7 days. – sgeureka ^t•c 20:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Sheesh - that's what I get for using a misplaced source by es.wiki without noticing the date. This confirms she tested positive for the virus, but yes, nothing to do with the filming of this show. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:37, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Consensus request to create the Money Heist Awards article

Currently the Netflix TV series already has 28 awards nominations. Of the 176 existing television series awards articles, only considering D's letter, the following five had fewer or slightly higher nominations.

• List of awards and nominations received by Bates Motel (29)
• List of awards and nominations received by Big Love (26)
• List of awards and nominations received by Carnivàle (33)
• List of awards and nominations received by Dharma & Greg (23)
• List of awards and nominations received by Doctor Doctor (21)

I ask you, what is the minimum number of awards nominations needed to have an independent article? --Kasper2006 (talk) 06:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Some of those probably don't need standalone articles. However, Carnivàle, which is a FL, has a good amount of prose to go along with explaining the listed awards. Perhaps if you offered more prose in the article, it may be warranted (not sure if you planned on doing that since the redirect was created pretty quickly). Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 06:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: indeed. I want to seem very humble to tell you that in my opinion bold was the one who deleted my job of hours with a simple click, rather than me who, in good faith, had done it. --Kasper2006 (talk) 06:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Scope of Characters and Casting sections

I am working on the Casting section in my sandbox, and I found the series aftershow Tercer Grado to possibly be a goldmine for information for those who understand spoken Spanish (I don't). However, Money Heist is already pretty long, and I have come to the stage where I'll intentionally leave out less important information, so I'll mostly ignore Tercer Grado for now. But here is what one can do if they want to see more information about the characters included:

• A new List of Money Heist characters is possible, but I have no interest in developing or maintaining that list.
• In my estimation, The Professor (Money Heist) is the only character who might be able to support his own stand-alone article. There is enough third-party interest in the character, and the producers and Álvaro Morte give good wiki-usable interviews about this character. At this point though, I would not want to remove any (present or forthcoming) information about this character from Money Heist, so a separate article would just be a duplication of information.
• Move elements of the Casting section (in particular one-sentence character-specific info) to the Characters section, like was done in the film article Atlantis: The Lost Empire#Voice cast, to reduce the length of the Casting section. The last paragraph of MOS:TVCAST might be relevant here, but I am not sure yet if this is really a good idea.

I don't expect any replies just yet, but let me know if someone wants to make a move about the characters. Until then, I'll continue to do what I believe to be best. – sgeureka ^t•c 07:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Contrary to my earlier plans, I have started developing Draft:List of Money Heist characters with material from my sandbox. It's coming along nicely, and I believe this is the right way to go forward. I'll have it ready to be moved to article space within the next two weeks. The draft is open for everyone to edit, and almost all characters still need a 2-5 sentence plot description of their character arc, which can be added by anyone who has seen the series. (I personally dislike summarizing plot.)

The Money Heist article will be affected by this in that I intend to remove all recurring characters from the "Cast and characters" section, and trim the "Casting" section to only include the general stuff, while leaving a {{main}} hatnote to the LoC. – sgeureka ^t•c 01:02, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kasper2006: I'd like to point you to User:Sgeureka's draft character article after you made The Professor (Money Heist) and Tokyo (Money Heist). Perhaps you can attribute some of his work or work on it together. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Netflix series with much less success than this have all the voices of the characters. Go and see the number of daily visits if you don't believe it. --Kasper2006 (talk) 17:34, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kasper2006: Not sure if you understood me correctly. There can still be individual character articles for those main characters while having an overall character list article. Just notifying you that Sgeureka had intentions of making one and maybe you can attribute some of his info into the individual character articles and/or help him with the draft article. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I understood you, I replied to one above Tomorrow from PC I contact him. --Kasper2006 (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: Y (here). Thank you --Kasper2006 (talk) 05:43, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kasper2006: I'll be busy with real life for another 2-3 weeks and plan to resume my wiki activity afterwards. I know I don't WP:OWN any Money Heist articles, but MH is very dear to my heart and I only want the best for its en.wiki coverage. I like to believe I have a good grasp of how to make good TV articles (see my userpage), and I still believe that the Profesor and maybe Berlín are the only characters that need stand-alone articles; the rest can and IMO should be covered in a list article. Have a look at my Featured Article Characters of Carnivàle for what I have in mind for the MH characters once en.wiki has my full attention again. We can talk specifics then. – sgeureka ^t•c 07:53, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@Sgeureka:, @Kasper2006: I think List of Money Heist cast members should've waited to be made given the draft linked above Sgeureka has going—we don't need to rush to publish all these articles when the info is basically the same as the main page. I think Sgeureka will have plans to clean this up anyway in a couple of weeks as he said. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Plot summaries

There are currently three places in this article where the plot is summarized: (1) the lead, (2) #Premise, and (3) #Episodes. This is unnecessary, IMO. By having #Episodes early in the article (which was the case until recently), there was no need for a Premise section at all. I don't have the time and energy at the moment to read up on MOSes and fight over this, so I propose to simply remove the Premise section again and move the Episode section back to the top, plus give that section another good trim (especially for P3+4). Opinions? – sgeureka ^t•c 19:56, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

As MOS:TVPLOT reads, Plot summaries provide context, allowing a reader who has not seen the work to understand the other sections of the article that comment on the plot (such as "Production" or "Reception"). Therefore, this section should be the first in an article, or as close to the start as possible. In addition to "Plot", other appropriate headings for this section may be "Premise", "Synopsis", or "Overview". All articles should contain a few sentences in the lead to summarize the overall storyline, generally done via a non-copyrighted logline or preview summary. Having a summary in the lead is necessary even when having a premise section - besides having the episodes listed first is not in the order of the MoS either. The premise and the season summaries are also not the same thing. The premise gives a 'taste' into the show without really giving anything away, while the season summaries go into more detail about, well, the actual seasons. The season summaries could be trimmed, sure, but that does not automatically mean we take away the premise section that provides an overall context to the show. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

My point is, the first paragraph of #Season 1 is the premise. The second paragraph beginning with "Throughout parts 1 and 2" plus of course the Season 2 section are a sufficient (spoiler) warning to the reader that the premise description is over. Therefore my proposal again: get rid of the "new" Premise section and return to the old format where the season description included the premise and was at the top of the article. – sgeureka ^t•c 14:15, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Why would we be so general as to describe basically a premise for season 1, but then get more into detail in season 2? These two sections should go into the same level of detail. If one is a premise, it should very well be that and titled as such—as a Premise. However, season 1 is not a premise on its own because the premise would describe the entire show, not just one season, so wanting to get rid of an actual premise section that encompasses the entire show to just a season 1 "premise" in the "season 1" doesn't make much sense. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:17, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

The premise should be very general while the season summaries should offer slightly more detail - but both season summaries should offer a similar level of detail, as said before. I trimmed the description of the series in the lead to only its main focus - having a whole paragraph in the lead just on the plot did not seem appropriate. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

The premise and plot sections should be merged and placed at the top of the article. Per MOS:TVPLOT, If the plot summaries are moved to a separate list of episodes or to individual season articles, then the plot summary at the series article should be replaced with a simple overview or premise section that allocates around 100 words per season (such as a logline for each season in non-copyrighted language). This may lead to articles about long-running series having quite long premise sections; it is highly recommended that these be cut down, as this should be a brief overview that avoids redundancy with the more detailed plot summaries that have been split off. - Brojam (talk) 04:38, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the positions of Vaselineeeeeeee. --Kasper2006 (talk) 04:56, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

In this case, I had already agreed with Brojam here—somewhat. I think the most important part is the premise. What happens with the season summaries I am indifferent about. The premise is already about 100 words so anything from a potential merge would just be wording. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:59, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok then I agree with Vaselinee's positions that agree with Brojam's ... in short I agree with someone --Kasper2006 (talk) 05:16, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Accolade results do not sort properly

Clicking on the top of the "Result" column in the accolades table to sort by won/lost has no effect. I don't know how to fix this. BenbowInn (talk) 01:56, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: Could this be an easy fix for you? It looks like the only column that sorts is the year. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Bad rowspan in the last award.  Fixed. Primefac (talk) 16:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2020

106.51.114.5 (talk) 04:52, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Spanish courts rule in favour of scriptwriter behind Netflix’s smash hit series Money Heist

I haven't kept up with the LCDP news (and wikipedia) for a while, but a kind Reddit editor pointed me to this article: https://mediawrites.law/courtroom-drama-spanish-courts-rule-in-favour-of-scriptwriter-behind-netflixs-smash-hit-series-money-heist/ . If the info isn't already included in the article, I believe it should be. – sgeureka ^t•c 11:40, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Performance in Netflix Top 10

This Article here https://www.whats-on-netflix.com/news/money-heist-dominates-the-global-netflix-top-10s-around-the-world/ shows the massive popularity of the series around the world. It tells about the Show’s massive popularity in India and Hungary. Can this be added to in the Reception of the Series? ਬੱਬੂ ਬਰਾੜ (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)