Talk:Names of Istanbul

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Turkish pronounciation of Istanbul[edit]

It says that in Turkish it is pronounced 'İstanbul (IPA: [istàmbul])'. But why? In Turkish, the 'n' is pronounced like the 'n' in 'nay'. See 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_alphabet#Sounds'. So why is it been pronounced as İstaMbul? I've changed it in 'İstaNbul'. If this is not correct I think it would be helpful to explain why it isn't. --Robster1983 (talk) 20:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Also the translation of the Greek words 'την' and 'στην' is 'tin' and stin', with the 'ν' pronounced as an 'n'-sound. I've looked it up, and in the history of ancient Greek there hasn't been a period of time in which it was pronounced as an 'm' (as far as I could see). I've changed that also. Again, if it is not correct it would be very helpful if an explanation is added.
--Robster1983 (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
In Greek, the final -n of words like tin regularly gets assimilated to [m] before an initial p- in the next word, that's a very regular process. It's also very frequent in other languages. I think in Turkish I've heard versions both with [n] and [m]. Fut.Perf. 21:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
So if I'm correct: the Turkish pronounciation with an 'n' is correct (seriously, I never met any Turk that said 'IstaMbul', but I'm going there in september, so I could check it out anyhow), but the greek translation isn't? I find that quite strange, for example, the wikipedia-page on the 'ν' doesn't mention anything about it, for I think would/ could be helpful, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_(letter) . Also the latest song of Anna Vissi ("Στην πυρά"/ Sti(n) Pira) doesn't make the 'ν' sounds like an 'm', evenwhile a 'p' (often pronounced as a 'b') is followed, in fact, the 'ν' is almost non-hearable, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wA5Ets5xXE , and for the Greek lyrics: http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/greek-lyrics-translation/63395-anna-vissi-sti-pira.html ) .
So if your point can/could be proven then as far as I'm concerned, I think it is solved.
--Robster1983 (talk) 10:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
See more at Modern Greek phonology, you can find it described in any reference grammar of modern Greek. You are right, calling the result an [m] is a little bit of an oversimplification -- it's variable, and it's often reduced to just a slight pre-nasalisation of the following consonant (which, as you rightly noticed, regularly gets voiced). But whatever it is, it tends to become bilabial, not alveolar, so it's closer to an [m] than to an [n]. -- I'm not sure what you meant by saying that the Greek translation "isn't correct"? Fut.Perf. 11:38, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I meant that the 'ν' sounds more like an 'n', and the phonetic IPA translation was 'not correct', and to explain that point, I referred to the last/ that one single of Anna Vissi. But to be honest, the only way I can translate the Greek language, is because I have many Greek artists in my cd/iPod/iTunes-collection, and because I always want to know what they sing, I always turn to allthelyrics.com/forum. Via those ways I reckon the way Greek people pronounce the Greek letters in the Greek alphabet. But since that is the only way I reckon some Greek words, I am the last to say that I know evereything about the Greek language. :) I was just wondering why the words 'την' and 'στην' were translated in IPA with an 'm' sound, for even when a word that begins with an 'p' follows it is always (in my music, at least) been 'tin/stin'. But hey, isn't this almost the same as with how people translate the Greek 'Γ/γ'? I always seem to reckon a 'soft-g' sound in it, like they speak in the Southern part of the Netherlands, Flanders, and near the Dutch-German border on both sides (I assume you're from Germany, since your mother tongue is German?). But officially it is pronounced as the 'j'-sound as in Dutch and German 'ja' (as has been said to me by a Greek person from the Makedonian-region in Greece, so perhaps even that plays a role). --Robster1983 (talk) 12:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
With the gamma, both versions exist, it depends on context. It's your "soft g" before back vowels (a, o, u), and the "j" sound before front vowels (e, i). Fut.Perf. 12:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


Greek 'nu' was never pronounced as an 'm' sound. However, an 'n' before certain letters will often morph into an 'm' sound. In Latin, the prefix is 'in,' the terminal sound pronounced as an 'n.' However, over time, "in-bibo" to "drink in" became "im-bibo," and hence the modern word "imbibe." Or, "in-press" became "impress."

An "N" before the letters "B" and "P" is particularly likely to end up being pronounced as "M." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.97.25.131 (talk) 00:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

"Lygos" etymology[edit]

About these [1] reverts:

Raymond Janin was a reputed scholar with specialized publications on the history of Constantinople and the history of Thracia. His book cited, Janin, Raymond (1964). Constantinople byzantine. Paris: Institut Français d'Études Byzantines. p. 10. , is most certainly a reliable source.

Janin says: [10]"On a trouvé à la Pointe du Sérail [...] de nombreux débris de céramique protocorinthienne. Il y avait là un centre qui semble correspondre au Lygos dont parle Pline l'Ancien [...] Les populations qui habitaient les rives du Posphore étaient thraces, au dire des historiens. Thraces sont les noms de leurs villes et de leurs sites: Bosphore, Byzance, Mucaporis, etc. Thraces étaient les divinités qu'ils vénéraient. [...]
[11] En réalité le mot Byzance est d'origine thrace et n'a rien de mégarien. Il faut le rapprocher des autres noms thraces, Βυζία, Βύζηρες, Βυζαντίς, et du nom de Barbyzès (Βαρβύζης). Il a donc été donné avant l'arrivée des Grecs. Ceux-ci, en s'installant dans la petite cité thrace, n'ont pu faire disparaître complètement l'ancien état des choses. Ils ont dû composer avec l'élément indigène." Thus, he clearly confirms: (a) that the inhabitants of the place before the Megarian colonization were Thracians, (b) that Lygos was a Thracian settlement ("la petite cité thrace" refers back to "un centre qui semble correspondre au Lygos" a few lines further up); and (c) that the placenames in the region, in general, were Thracian (even though he doesn't explicitly mentions Lygos again in that sentence, the scope of the sentence is clearly such that it includes the place he just mentioned in the preceding sentence.)

In contrast, Scarlatos Byzantios, from 1851(!), is most certainly not a reliable source. We have no indication that this person knew anything about modern linguistics, which at that time was a new, developing science, and he could not possibly have known anything about Thracian placename etymologies, because the foundational linguistic works in that field were only written much later. The identification of the Lygos placename with the homonymous Greek plant name is evidently nothing but a naive folk etymology. Calling this author reliable simply because he was "a Greek scholar who lived there" [2] is outrageous, even for Euzen's standards. Fut.Perf. 10:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I got news for you, Future: Prof. Erendiz ÖZBAYOGLU claims that she knows better than the French priest. (E Y Ü P S U L T A N S Y M P O S I A I - V I I I : S E L E C T E D A R T I C L E S p. 221.) She says that the word Lygos is of the same origin with other toponyms such as Lygii, Ligures and Lugdunum and refers to the swampy region. She is not supposed to know the Greek towns of Ligourion, Lygia etc, common toponyms. She also sums various opinions on the origin of the name Byzantium, including the byssos (depth of sea, abyss) found in Homer. She doesn't say anything about Thracean settlement, since there are no archaeological evidences on the first settlers (stating the obvious, i.e. Thracean is the one who settles in Thrace, is not enough to make an author "reliable").

The etymology of Byzantium from Byzas and this from the nympgh Bizye is also found in this publication. For those who want to search more, look up in Pokorny's IE Etymological Dictionary for Root / lemma: b(e)u-2, bh(e)ū̆- (to swell, puff) which is the origin of the Gr. βυζί(ον) (breast). Bizye was the nymph who fed Byzas.
I trust your expertise to incorporate this info in the article. The opinion of Sc. Byzantios can also be added as "according to". Some will find interesting the scenario that a "thracean" settlement may have a Greek name. --Euzen (talk) 18:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear. And you think the Özbayoğlu article contradicts Janin or Georgacas? Read again. You don't really understand much about placename etymologies, do you? Fut.Perf. 19:15, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
A short excerpt from the erudite paper of Prof. ÖZBAYOGLU cited above (page 5) "...In Rome, at the end of the 3rd century, Kosmas and Damianos, two Muslim doctors who died for Islam were recognized anargyroi, “moneyless” saints because they treated gratis their patients. The church, which was constructed during the time of Theodosius, in the middle of the 5th century" (italics is mine). What does it mean? Who wrote this crap? I think that the Rev. Raymond Janin is twisting in his tomb... Alex2006 (talk) 19:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Heh, LOL. Quite a gaffe, indeed. No, it's not a particularly good article. The etymology stuff she mentions comes nowhere close to the depth of even the Georgacas paper from 1947. Fut.Perf.

For certain users no source is too irrelevant if supports that something is non-Greek. On the other hand, everything counts as a source if supports that something is Albanian.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talkcontribs) 10:04, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem here is not relevancy, but rather reliability. A source that pretends that two christian Saints were "Muslim Doctors who died for Islam" a couple of hundred years before the birth of Mohammed can be used with some success as inspiration for an alternate history novel, but not more than that. Alex2006 (talk) 13:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

After the first laugh, I suspected that this may be the result of some kind of hacking, since the above source is published in a non-academic site. At least there is a real Professor Erendiz Ozbayoglu who has an international recognition, as it appears from her participation in scientific congresses like this while her name appears as reference in many books. Fortunatelly, another prof. from the same university in the same event restores Kosmas and Damianos as Christians, thus making my assumption of hacking plausible: The church of Koscas & Damian church in Eyup. I didn't check all this text, though, which may reserve some more grotesque from turko-muslim nationalists. After all, a former Turkish president had set the example by claiming that Homer was a ... Turk.  :) --Euzen (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually I was thinking also the same. Ok, mistaking Theodosius for Theodosius II is a mistake, but the story about the Saints of Islam is just crazy. Anyway, this is not the first time that I read something fool on a Turkish paper. On the Catalog of the great (and beautiful) exhibition held in Istanbul in 2010 about the city, the most distinguished Turkish Art Historian of the last decades wrote that Istanbul is the only modern city which has kept the ancient walls intact... As Roman, I could only laugh :-) anyway, I will read the new article in the next days, thanks! Alex2006 (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


There are etymological informations for all the other names, why not for "Lygos"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talkcontribs) 08:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Turkish Postal Service Law[edit]

Turkish Postal Service Law of 28 March 1930 simply does not exist. It is not found in any of the given sources, nor is it found in official Turkish archives. In fact there is no law dated March 28, 1930. The Turkish Postal Law is dated 6 December 1921 (unrelated do the subject), and it wasn't replaced with another one in 1930; it wasn't even amended throughout the year of 1930. It is beyond belief that such a hoax persisted in Wikipedia for so long, and now that made up info is popping up in a lot of places, taken from Wikipedia. Just plain horrifying that no one has bothered to check the book given as source ("History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey") or the issues of the Official Gazette of Turkey.

What happened is, by then the city was almost exclusively referred to as استانبول in Turkish, which would is pronounced as Istanbul. However, when writing in Latin script, most European languages preferred Constantinople. In 1928, the Turkish alphabet was changed from Arabic to Latin, so the city's Turkish name started to be written in Latin (i.e. as Istanbul). Hence no transliteration was necessary, and Turkey urged other countries to use the Turkish name. That's all, no laws were passed or anything, as there wasn't any change (other than the change in Turkey's alphabet).--Orwellianist (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Corrected the transliteration[edit]

Just changed the Persian/Arabic spelling of the city, both of them have the same transliteration. Some information is mentioned in the edit summary. My edits are being examined by my mentor @Irondome: Alexis Ivanov (talk) 06:01, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

"Junshitandingbao 君士坦丁堡"[edit]

It should be pointed out that "Junshitandingbao" is the Mandarin pronunciation of 君士坦丁堡, but not the only way to read it. Given that "君" sounds like "kun" in Cantonese, it's probably closer to what the translator intended to sound like. Ahyangyi (talk) 14:04, 25 November 2016 (UTC)