Talk:Nefertiti/Archive 1

Archive 1

Mother in Law of King Tut?

If Akenaton was King Tut's father, and Nefertiti was Akenaton's wife, then Nefertiti was at least King Tut's mother or step-mother, right? I don't understand how she could've been his mother-in-law.

It's simple. Pharaohs often married their sisters and/or half sisters. The same woman could be both the mother (or stepmother) and mother-in-law of a Pharaoh, Das Baz 15:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Nefertiti's Bust

The following text has been moved here from Talk:Nefertiti bust. See below for the Nefertit talk section.

I saw this bust when it made the rounds in the US way back when. It had an article with it describing how Tutmose was commisioned to carve it. Nefertiti sat for him a few times, but then he was left to finish it without her needing to be present. The finished piece was overdue and all inquiries were answered with a response something like, "It's almost ready." After some time, a detachment was sent to investigate. They found Tutmose had constructed a shrine for the scultpure and was on his knees worshipping it. However, I haven't been able to find any information that even hints at this event. Does anyone else have any information on this? Can we post what I wrote just from memory (and, therefore probably contains some errors)? —Frecklefoot 16:16 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

What does "Found in his workshop" mean? Who found it, and what happened to it then? -- Zoe

It was found in a ruined building in the deserted city of Amarna in 1912, by a German archaelogical expedition. The building was identified as Tutmose's house/studio based on a item with an owner's name and job title on it found in a rubbish pit - since it gave his occupation as "sculptor", and the building was clearly a sculpture workshop, it seemed a logical connection. The head was found on the floor of a storeroom. As was standard practise in those days, as a find it belonged to the expedition, and it was taken back to Berlin where it has remained ever since. (Come back please, Zoe!) Noel 18:55, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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Does this need to be a separate article? Nefertiti's bust should be discussed in her article, and I can't think of anything that could be said about the bust that wouldn't fit into the article on Nefertiti herself. If there is a good reason to have this as a separate article, let me know; otherwise, I'll redirect it in a few days... -- Oliver P. 17:12 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

No, go ahead and redirect it. I thought the story (up top of this page) was enough to make it a seperate article, but I can't find any evidence of it on the Internet, so I don't want to include it since I can't provide any evidence. So, go ahead and redirect it. —Frecklefoot 18:55 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Here ends the moved text. -- Oliver P. 20:07 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Nefertiti

I've removed the statement that Nefertiti was Tutankhamun's aunt. I've never heard this. Does anyone know where it came from? -- Oliver P. 23:16 Feb 2, 2003 (UTC)

From The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, 2001 for instance:

Nefertiti ... , queen of ancient Egypt; wife of Ikhnaton (XVIII dynasty) and aunt of Tutankhamen. She seems to have been divorced by Ikhnaton late in his reign..

Egil 23:22 Feb 2, 2003 (UTC)

Interesting! Does it clarify how she is his aunt? By marriage to Akhenaton or by blood? On Tutankhamun's father's side, or mother's side? I think we have to treat this claim with caution, given that no-one agrees on who Tutankhamun's parents were, let alone his aunts and uncles! Ancient Egyptian genealogy is all a bit of a mess, unfortunately... -- Oliver P. 23:45 Feb 2, 2003 (UTC)

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There's some material here that ought to be in other pages - in particular, we ought to have a separate page for Tadukhipa. But let's not add too much about Akhenaten's reigm etc here - there are other pages for that.. Noel 21:48, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I moved the Tadukhipa bio details to a separate page for her. Next step is to move some Akhenaten material to his page. After that we can try and get each page to more accurately show the current range of scholarly theories about them. Noel 20:09, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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Nefertiti found?

Far too much attention is given to Nefertiti found? and Joann Fletcher's "announcement". I won't go so far as to say that her claims have been debunked, but she has very little evidence of substance to back her claims. I have added links both in support and in disagreement with her claims.

Fab 22:21, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Nefertiti and Julia Roberts

Nefertiti and Julia Roberts have an amazing and uncanny resemblance to each other, as can be seen by comparing photographs of Julia Roberts and of the Nefertiti bust. Das Baz 15:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

She looks more like Halle Berry actually.

Or Angela Bassett: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Bassett (NitaReads 06:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

yes she does look like Julia Roberts the afrocentric above this comment like many others are in denial,and she does not look like angela bassette just by her skin tone, angela and looks like a bantu and halle berry though is a mulatto compared to the bust of nefertiti is still much darker complexioned,i would say she looks like an olived skinned julia roberts--Wikiscribe (talk) 18:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Fake?

Question I think the bust of Neferttiti is a fake. No one else male or female in egyptian art looks even remotley like her. I am amazed I am the only one who has noticed this. The racial features look very european. German archaelogists were known for inventing history has anyone carbon dated the bust?

You are terribly wrong. All the art found in Thutmose's shop is in that style. It's hardly the strangest thing from Akhenaten's reign. Thanatosimii 07:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

A stroll through the page on Thutmose (sculptor) ought to put that query to rest. The piece is very much in keeping with late Amarna-style sculpture. Captmondo 10:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Nefertiti's birth

OK i am doing a project on Egyptian Queen Nefertiti and why is it that every source of information i get her birth date is always different so in my scribes report i am just going to put ca.1400 (ca. means round about) i rekon everyone who has something to say about Nefertiti then maybe they should look what people think before they do it cause they are all different. Please i think every source of info should have the same info it is to hard to do a scribes report on her otherwise.

It gets worse. If you followed the Immanuel Velikovsky chronology, which most historians reject, you would have to date Nefertiti to the 9th century BC (the 800's BCE). Even if you reject such radical and extreme theories, the dates of her birth and her death, and her genetical and family relations, are mysterious and imperfectly known. Not even a Time Machine would help to get more exact. By the way, "rekon" is usually spelled reckon. Das Baz 16:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

King Tut

Nefertiti could have been the mother, step-mother, aunt, sister-in-law, mother in law of Tutankhamon, according to various theories. Indeed, she could be both mother and mother in law to him, as the Kings of Egypt usually married their sisters and half-sisters. Das Baz 16:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Code-text??

Why in the world is the entire opening in code-style font? It's rather unusual, is an eyesore, and (most importantly) it stretches the page, and some of its text is obscured by the image of the bust. I'm changing it to normal text right now... Hmm, I guess someone must have put a space in front of the opening, where Nefertiti should have appeared. Oh well, fixed now.T. S. Rice 07:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Master Manipulative Propagandist

In ancient Egyptian artwork many times a pharoah will be shown smiting an enemy with a mace. This may not have happened and could have been considered propaganda but I went ahead and deleted this contribution because I do not think she was a master manipulator. At least no more than your average pharoah. I am not sure where this information comes from. If there is evidence of her being a master of manipulation then please post and restore the sentence. Welsh4ever76 18:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The correct spelling is Pharaoh - not "pharoah" (sic). Das Baz 19:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I was reading this article and found vandalism in the section titled "The Mummy Discovered". I deleted the phrase"Hi my name is paul i hate.. u RAF genius ha ha ha" from the end of the 2nd paragraph. I do not know if this person deleted any content, but it appears he only added this. 208.251.50.182 19:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

He didn't delete anything; he just added that. If you hit the "History" tab on the top of the page, click the first bullet point to the edit previous to his first one, and hit compare, you can see exactly what he did. In this case he just did petty vandalism, not blanking. Nothing was removed. However, it's ususally safer to click on the hyperlinked date for the last proper version, which will bring you to that version, then hit "edit this page." A pink bar will appear which says you are editing a older version: That's good. Don't change anything, just type rvv. (revert vandalism) in the edit summary box, and hit Save Page. That'll revert to the old version.Thanatosimii 19:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There have been huge amounts of vandalism on this page. I recommend locking it from editing by new or unregistered users. Robin S 20:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone has vandalized this page again. Look at the first paragraph- randomly inserted is "HI PEOPLE" (Edit: Nevermind, it's been reverted. But it might be a good idea to lock this page as suggested above.)

Famous nose?

The first thing I remember ever learning about Nerfertiti is how her nose was beautiful. There are jokes about it. Her nose is famous I think it's worth mentioning.

+ Page style: I did some minor editing. For the ease of use the menu needed to be higher so I added the title 'queen of Egypt and date by the name - for those, like me which need just quick ref in a glimpse. - Please corect if needed. Thank you. --ycc2106 20:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The busts eye

One of the eyes are missing... why?

207.118.9.58 00:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)The bust was never completed by the artist.

-I figure that it was missing because it broke off 74.229.215.99 08:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Vocab

Have changed 'persona' to 'person' as incorrect word use. 'Persona' refers to an assumed identity; the word required is simply 'person'. Pvc.mermaid 18:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Clarification please !

"During Akhenaten's reign (and perhaps after) Nefertiti enjoyed unprecedented power, and was perhaps the most powerful woman on earth. Some time during the reign she was made co-regent: the pharaoh's equal. She was depicted on temple walls the same size as the king, signifying her importance, and shown worshipping the Aten alone. Perhaps most impressively, Nefertiti is shown on a relief from the temple at Amarna which is now in the MFA in Boston, smiting a foreign enemy with a mace before the Aten. Such depictions are reserved for the pharaoh alone, and yet Nefertiti was depicted as such."

Can anyone find evidence of these supposed depictions ? Although I have seen the same text/ideas posted elsewhere on the internet, I can't seem to find any actual literature or artwork to support these claims. Any help would be appreciated :-D

Rikku 01:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I made similar comments on smenkhkare or some other page a few days ago, except I was the one with the evidence and was rather suprised by it. Nicholas Reeves has about a chapter or so on this in Egypt's false prophet. Now, he is a reputable scholar. Nonetheless, it's hardly a mass accepted theory, so it should probably be rephrased as a possibility in this article. Thanatosimii 01:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Race

What is Nefertiti's racial background?

Nefertiti was undoubtably of Egyptian background. People looking like her are not uncommon in Egypt today. It has been suggested that Ay was her father, and he was probably the brother of Tiye, wife of Amenhotep III, so in this way Nefertiti and Akhenaton would have been cousins. Her sister married Horemhab, and the family seems to have been minor nobility from Akhmin in Egypt.

John D. Croft 05:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

That sandstone bust

Today it one of the most famous works of art in the world. The story of its discovery, by Ludwig Borchardt in 1912 at Tel-el-Amarna, is quite a romantic tale. After scratching around in the sand for some years, his diggers brought him this magnificent piece. Imagine his emotions! He wrote in his diary that night, "Description is useless. See for yourself."

Egypt wants that carving back, by the way. :)

64.180.171.185 11:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Joann Fletcher Proven Wrong

The mummy of the Younger Lady is not Nefertiti. It has been discovered that the Arm that was bent in a Royal manner did not belong to the Younger Lady. Her other arm was straight and matches the mummy according CT scans taken by the Egyptian Museum of Antiquities. This proves that she was not a Queen of Egypt. The Elder Lady appears to be too old to be Nefertiti and it is thought this mummy is Queen Tiye. This was all presented on the National Geographic Channel by Dr. Zahi Hawass. Welsh4ever76 05:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Long Skull?

I heard that she was a long skull in one of my assignments, is it proper to put it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ALLmasked (talk • contribs) 01:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Many of the sculptures from that era displayed the members of the royal family with elongated skulls, as you can see in some family images here, here, and here for some examples. Though by no means proven, the current thinking is leaning towards this being a "style" of representing royal heads by the early court artist of the period. When a new royal sculptor was chosen, the art style became much more relaxed and realistic, as you can see in the gallery images on this page. None of them show the exaggerated elongated heads seen in the earlier images. Hope that helps! Captmondo 01:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

King Tut? Tutankhamun!

Maybe I'm nitpicking here but can we please get rid of 'King Tut' in Ancien Egypt related articles? The man was not a king but a pharao and his name was Tutankhamun, not Tut. IMHO 'King Tut' is a ridiculous phrase, maybe fit for cartoon characters but not for an encyclopedia. Rien Post (talk) 23:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You're certainly not being nitpicky - but "Tut" is his name in popculture. Maybe "Tut is acceptable in Howard Carter —Preceding unsigned comment added by MagicPath111 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Iconic status

I don't even know what the sentence means. The one that says "she influenced through photographs that changed standards of feminine beauty of the 20th century." It's not very grammatical. Does it mean to say that the famous bust of Nefertiti influenced standards of feminine beauty? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.190.244.93 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The Elder Lady?

¿Could someone provide a source for this section?. I couldn't find any reference to this article. --Seba5618 (talk) 01:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Something wrong with the hieroglyph template at the start

In the wiki source code you can see that there's supposed to be a translation of the hieroglyphs and and sounding of it, but it doesn't actually show up anywhere on the page for some reason:

Nfrw Jtn Nfr.t jty
Beauty of Aten, the Beautiful one has came

--212.159.75.57 (talk) 03:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Dont strike the video game reference

For shame on YOU! Original research from a second hand rumor on a video game forum!? Maybe after much argument one would concede that this is of marginal interest. However this is totally eclipsed by works like "Queen of the Nile" and her place as an ideal/archetype of beauty. In this encyclopedic of encyclopedia articles, this has no place -- except maybe to be preserved in the annals of Wikipedia shame. 67.188.38.40 (talk) 19:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Garbled clause

What does this mean: "...the lock of hair found in Tutankhamun's tomb which bears the inscription of Queen Tiye is the hairs coffin." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.86.92.198 (talk) 14:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Famous bust fake

According to this news article and many more like it, the famous bust of Neferititi is actually a product of the 20th century and not ancient Egypt. You might want to mention that at least one scholar doubts its age in the article. I would wait until other scholars have had a chance to review his findings before making any concrete claims, though. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, according to this, it's been proven geniuine: [1] Dougweller (talk) 13:06, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Ignore the above, Google news misled me about the date. Dougweller (talk) 13:09, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Stierlin's claims about the bust being fake are highly controversial, rejected out of hand by Hawass and other authorities. Phanx (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Cartouche

Nefertiti's cartouche is not correct. Can somebody please add the fifth nefer sign? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.97.1.7 (talk) 22:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Anybody going to fix the cartouche?

Seriously...nobody notices that the cartouche is missing a nefer sign? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.97.1.7 (talk) 01:57, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Cartouche is still wrong

Can somebody fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.97.1.7 (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Separate Nefertiti Bust article

Can we make a separate article dedicated to the Nefertiti Bust? Currently, Nefertiti_bust redirects to this article. It's one of the most famous antient artifacts and the bust itself has influenced the way we perceive ancient Egypt. In short, it's highly notable. I was trying to search for info on the bust myself.--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Well yes of course. There is nothing stopping you doing that. Paul B (talk) 10:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I just created the article.--Johnsemlak (talk) 12:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Nefertiti's Name in Unicode Hieroglyphs

With the newest version of Unicode now supporting Egyptian Hieroglyphs, I thought it appropriate to include Unicode text of Nefertiti's name below the cartouche, although at the moment only one font, "Aegyptus", supports Unicode hieroglyphs. Also, I've noticed several comments state that the cartouche is wrong and is missing one glyph. I will be glad to fix it. Wikilackey (talk) 21:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Fake

Sometimes one hears it said that it was made in the early 20c, someone's idea of what a colored ancient Egyptian sculpture should be (swoon!). The face is based on the full length Amarna figure (pictured in the article). Is this idea worth a paragraph? [2] Stikko (talk) 13:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a very very fringe theory of one author. It was briefly mentioned here, but is now discussed in depth at Nefertiti bust. Paul B (talk) 13:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Younger and Elder Lady Mummies DNA

These two sections don't yet really reflect the recent DNA tests of these mummies: The Elder Lady (KV35EL) is now identified with Tiye, the Younger Lady (KV35YL) is now identified as a wife and full sister of Akhenaten, that Amenhotep III and Tiye were parents to both Akhenaten and the Younger Lady mummy, and they, in turn, are parents to Tutankhamun. The actual identity (name) of the Younger Lady is unknown, but it is believe to not be Kiye. Nefertiti has not — yet — been ruled out since her parentage is unknown as well as that there are no mummies to test that we known definitively to be her children. The Younger Lady has been updated, but if there is going to be mention of the Younger Lady and the Elder Lady in this article, it should not ignore the new study results. — al-Shimoni (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Remember The Time

Nefertiti was in Michael Jackson's Remember The Time music video too — Preceding unsigned comment added by Levchuk Igor Sergeevich (talk • contribs) 21:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, sort of. Iman dresses up to look like her, but she is not named and her husband is referred to as "Ramesses". Paul B (talk) 13:13, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Iconic status

The "Iconic status" section seems rather redundant (only two "facts", both lacking citations). Is it necessary to keep it? 139.222.80.144 (talk) 16:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

It should be a potted summary of the information in the "bust" article which includes her film and other appearances. Paul B (talk) 16:25, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Remove the Elder Lady and Younger Lady mummies sections

The recent DNA testing in 2010 pretty much rules those two mummies out of the equation. Should we just remove them now? Maybe find some information regarding Neferititi's funeral procession and burial, cite them and add them there before the removal so that we don't have an empty section.Masterpeace3 (talk) 11:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

elongated skull

Akhenaten was proven to have an elongated skull. In some time periods and areas people would bond the skull of a baby so it grew out long like that. Are there any reliable sources confirming she had a long skull also, like artwork of her suggests? Dream Focus 00:23, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

SSCI2831

I will be expanding/editing on the Family of Nefertiti for course purposes Oneishalin (talk) 18:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

"Nationality" ?

The article implies Nefertiti is a native Egyptian. I had always thought she was of Arzawan origin (i.e. from Western Anatolia). What sources exist about her descent? ♆ CUSH ♆ 10:50, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

I've seen a theory that she might have been from Mitanni, but not Arzawa. Other theories suggest she's a native Egyptian, but the fact is we have no clear records of her parentage. (Coincidentally, I've been re-reading Trevor Bryce's The Kingdom of the Hittites. Clearly, if any ruler of Arzawa had concluded a marriage alliance with Akhenaton, that would have had a major influence on Hittite policy in that region, but Bryce never mentions any such thing.) 68.170.189.77 (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• What happened on this article Khruner? Are the Armenian Nationalists now claiming that Nefertiti is Armenian? Nefertiti's parents are unknown and we don't even know her home town but when she wrote to Suppiluliuma (assuming that she is Dahamanzu as (Jared Miller and Reeves thinks), she was certainly in Egypt. So, I have no hesitation that she is Egyptian. Best, --Leoboudv (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

It looks so, Leoboudv. An absurd claim indeed, and any request of providing a source supporting this hypothesis was ignored with the simple stating that Petrie said that (When? Where?). Even if true, in the light of a century of discoveries it is likely that this claim is now outdated. So I've asked for semiprotection, but I'm not sure that it will be over now. IP stated on my talk page that I'm just jealous that Armenians have bonds with pharaohs while Italians not. Yeah right. Khruner (talk) 10:44, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Khruner, why are you lying ? Didn't you notice later on I went and put the actual source that is from books Google. Go back to the revision history and check it yourself. 107.72.98.73 (talk) 17:02, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Not a lie at all, my Armenian IP friend. this is your alleged source, a simple search of "petrie"+"mitannian" on Google books. How this could confirm your hypothesis of an Armenian Nefertiti, nobody knows. You should refresh your whole concept of providing a source on Wikipedia. Here is the book you apparently incidentally found. Nefertiti is mentioned in one single page, and not associated with Armenia at all. So tell me again who is lying here. Khruner (talk) 17:26, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• Khruner is right here. Armenia is never associated with Nefertiti at all. There is no reliable source this theory or about Nefertiti's family origins. She is likely Egyptian, in my view. --Leoboudv (talk) 19:22, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Nefertiti

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Nefertiti's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "manley":

• From Ankhesenamun: Manley, Suzie. "Ankhesenamun - Queen of Tutankhamun and Daughter of Akhenaten". Egypt * Pyramids * History.
• From Zannanza: Suzie Manley. "Ankhesenamun - Queen of Tutankhamun and Daughter of Akhenaten". Egypt * Pyramids * History.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 07:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)