Talk:Newcastle railway line

Date of closure

As the possession starts on 26 December I believe the closure should be shown as being "after 25 December" or "as from 26 December" There is a subtle difference. Fleet Lists (talk) 07:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

As always, Wikipedia:Verifiability applies here. Ecverything added to Wikipedia must be verifiable. The source in the article says "The closure of the heavy rail line past Wickham on 26 December".[1] Another source added yesterday by Mo7838,[2] says "With only a few weeks to go until the heavy rail is closed on December26".[3] A source added today by Fleet Lists says "As announced in July and communicated to customers, trains will stop operating beyond Wickham from Boxing Day this year".[4] There's not a single source in the article that says December 25, so that date is not verifiable and therefore cannot be used. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:54, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Mo7838 has chosen not to participate here, instead preferring to edit-war, adding WP:SYNTH in the process. Even if Mo7838's claim in this edit summary is correct, taking possession at 02:00 on Boxing Day does not mean that the line will close on 25 December. That is an assumption, which is original research. There are 2 hours in 26 December 2014 before possession is taken so it's entirely possible that the line will officially close in those 2 hours, which is supported by all of the sources. Similarly, this edit summary is also WP:SYNTH. The source does say that 700 metres of overhead wiring around Wickham will be removed from Boxing Day, but from is not on and the source does not mention closure on 25 December. That date is original research, which is not permitted. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:02, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

We can sit here endlessly and split hairs, but the last full day of operation will be on 25 December:

1) there is an engineering possession from 02:00 on 26 December per Sydney Trains [5]

2) Newcastle Herald states removal of 700 metres of wiring will commence from Boxing Day, there is an engineering possession per point 1, so if applying common sense to a cite is classified as original research so be it, but trains will not be running [6]

3) Technically the line last train per the Transport Planner to travel on the line will terminate at Newcastle at 01:46 [7], but by stating the line will close on the 26th, IMO this would infer that the line will be open on that date, which from the above it won't.

Precedent appears to be that the cessation date is given as the last full day of service, eg CityRail ceasing on 30 June 2013, not the wee hours of 1 July, First ScotRail to cease on 31 March 2015, despite its overnight Caledonian Sleeper services not terminating until the morning of 1 April. Mo7838 (talk) 19:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I gave this a lot of thought overnight and came to the conclusion as per the last paragraph of Mo7838 that for consistency we should show the date of closure as the last full day of operation as has been done for other stations despite what publicity may say. An example of this is Dunmore railway station. However in the case of the truncation which is mentioned in a number of articles, I believe this should be shown as 26 December as that is the first day that this will take place. I do not believe that the engineering possession is relevant.Fleet Lists (talk) 21:08, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

There is far too much original research in the arguments above. The source quoted above regarding "engineering possession" is not an authoritative source for the closure date of the line. It doesn't mention closure at all. Any assumption based on what is on that page is original research. I've already addressed the "700m" reference. It does not say that the line will close on 25 December. Again, assuming that the closure date is 25 December, based on what is in that source, is original research. The source titled "The Newcastle Railway will stay for the moment, as supporters celebrate" does not mention 25 December either. Regarding "Technically the line last train per the Transport Planner to travel on the line will terminate at Newcastle at 01:46", that site actually says that from 26 December 2014 stations will close. If trains are using the line up until 01:46 on that day, then the line most definitely does NOT close on 25 December. "Precedent" does not apply. That is in the realm of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Ignorance of policy at other articles does not justify ignorance of policy here, or anywhere else. It does not matter what the last full day of operation is. Multiple reliable sources say that the line will close on 26 December. None say 25 December so we have to use that, otherwise we are introducing original research into the article, which is not permitted by policy, not surprisingly titled Wikipedia:No original research. We cannot ignore both Wikipedia:Verifiabilty and Wikipedia:No original research. That's not appropriate anywhere on Wikipedia and if I were to open an RfC asking whether we should ignore multiple reliable sources and instead use OR I know what the outcome would be. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:16, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Riveting! This could go on and on, but aside from one Doubting Thomas, seems fairly clear the line will close come 02:00. Whether the article states it closed on the 25th, or in the early hours of the 26th is in the grand scheme of things, neither here nor there. The current cites stating what will happen will, at the risk of engaging in some crystalballing, be shortly overridden by a cite that states what did happen, so am not going to get involved in a problem that is probably going to resolve itself. Mo7838 (talk) 07:05, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Will this resolve itself or will you insist on arguing that the line closed on the 25th, or accept that it closed on the 26th? --AussieLegend (✉) 07:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

As long as it states it was in the early hours of the 26th, I won't argue the toss. Mo7838 (talk) 07:30, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

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