Talk:Oude Ram Afrikaner

	Africa portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Namibia (assessed as Low-importance).

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

A fact from Oude Ram Afrikaner appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 16 July 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Creole slaves under the leadership of Oude Ram Afrikaner were among the first to call themselves Africans, and that Afrikaans got its name from this appellation?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/July.

Wikipedia

Issues

Please could this sentence "Oude Ram Afrikaner was the first in the genealogy of the Orlam Afrikaners who should rule and dominate the area that today is central Namibia for almost 100 years." be clarified and edited so that it makes more sense.

This page also touches on issues about the idea of race, or mixed race and identity, issues which are dealt with in the page on the Coloured ethnic group. I feel that notice should be taken of these issues in references to "African Creole" culture or ethnicity. Totorotroll (talk) 15:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some quotes about Coloured and Creole as terms, from the blog already sited in the article http://cape-slavery-heritage.iblog.co.za/biography/

"I use the term ‘Coloured’ solely because it would stymie our discourse and present day reality if we in purist manner did not use it, so as to be ‘politically correct’, and because there has also been a very real historic ‘Coloured experience’, rather than because of any endearment to the term or endorsement thereof. In rejecting the term, at the same time I reject the arguments of those who say that there are no Coloured identities. I see this as a form of intellectual denialism and a burying of the head in the sand about a very real, painful and specific Coloured experience.

"At one time I too had a very purist view on rejecting the term ‘Coloured’ but had been given a sharp lesson by liberation movement stalwart and ANC representative in Cuba, Alex la Guma, who basically said that only idiots living in the clouds would deny Coloured identity. As far as he was concerned he would never accept the terminology of being referred to as a ‘so-called Coloured’. Writing in the journal Sechaba he said he was proud to call himself a Coloured and felt that those who used the prefix ‘so-called’ were not articulating a progressive viewpoint but were as insulting as the Apartheid regime. He brushed off those arguing this point as juvenile middle class students far removed from working class realities in the community. Clearly there were many different views on this question and no formal political position had ever emerged to deal with the question. While not agreeing fully with Alex la Guma, I eventually came around to a more nuanced approach." Totorotroll (talk) 16:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I must admit that I do not understand either of your concerns, could I ask you to clarify? What exactly is wrong with the first sentence, which part of it is unclear? And what exactly do you want to say with the two quotes? Can you make a suggestion as to how it should read? --Pgallert (talk) 18:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The template {{article issues}} is used to group together several criticisms - when e.g. an article is tagged as {{npov}} (non-neutral) AND {{refimprove}} AND {{coi}} (conflict of interest) - but in this case, the template contains none of the options. So, I just removed it. Chzz ► 19:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that the first troublesome sentence could just be, "Oude Ram Afrikaner was the first Orlam Afrikaner to rule the area now known as central Namibia." - I do not understand what it means by "for almost 100 years".

I certainly think that this usage of the term coloureds definitely needs clarification. Chzz ► 19:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest "The clan consisted of descendants from indigenous Khoikhoi and slaves from Madagascar, India, and Indonesia. People with this heritage are sometimes called African Creole people or Creole Africans, as well as Coloureds." The idea of race or mixed-race is a charged one, with many negative associations in, for example, apartheid racial classification. Please see the blog page that I cite above for more information. The use of the term "Coloureds" as referring to a South African group is dealt with in detail on the page coloureds - I would hope that people interested in this term would go to that page. Totorotroll (talk) 10:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially, I included the quotes as a way of backing up the inclusion of the term Coloured alongside the term Creole. While "Coloured" has been used in negative ways, it has also been taken back by people who identify themselves using this term, or speak of having had a "coloured experience" - so, in keeping with this, "African Creole" shouldn't be the only term used used to describe people with a particular heritage, specific to South Africa, but "coloured" should be used alongside it. Totorotroll (talk) 10:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for elaborating. Would you consent to my adding your suggestion, instead of replacing the existing phrase? Because, although I fully agree with you I believe that I added some significant information -- explaining how the terms "coloured" and "Afrikaner" came into existence. I did not intend to imply anything as to modern usage. The sources pretty clearly outline these first ways of using the term, long before Apartheid or segregation even existed. --Pgallert (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I am happy with that.Totorotroll (talk) 09:29, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Although it was the British who started to use the term Coloured, according to the Cape Slavery Heritage Blog "The African slaves and indentured workers largely integrated into what the British were to label the ‘Coloured’ population." http://cape-slavery-heritage.iblog.co.za/biography/ Totorotroll (talk) 09:35, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]