Talk:Painter

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Supersession[edit]

I removed this bolded part of this phrase from the page:

Some surrealists [...] have denounced or attempted to "supersede" painting (usually only as commonly understood but sometimes actually)

Feel free to add it back in, if you can rewrite it to make sense. :-) --bdesham 20:05 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Disambiguation[edit]

This article should be a disambiguation page in my opinion. I've added the Category:Construction_trades_workers to this article to cover the occupation of applying paint to the interior or exterior of a building. See the discussion at WikiProject_Categories, here. ---Quinobi 08:31, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Distinguish person "painter" and activity "painting"[edit]

Painter maybe different with painting. Painter is a human, and painting is a artistic. Newone (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not crazy about the disambig here.[edit]

I'm doing disambig cleanup and finding that virtually all of the 3,500+ links pointing here now need to be fixed to link to Painting. Seems it would be better to have it redirect to Painting, and move this back to Painter (disambiguation), as it was before. bd2412 T 01:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I rescued today, as a subpage, what was once Painter but hidden under a couple of Rdrs. It never succeeded as an article, and eventually it was recognized as aspiring to turn into a Dab. I think it is strong evidence that the neglect that kept those 3.5k lks from being bypassed is the problem, not the moving of the Dab page.
One of my first WP projects, years and years ago, was making Battery into a Dab, and i took seriously the silly, inhibiting "debt of honor" or "code of honor" or whatever the term was, tho there was a limit on how many redirects i could do in one sitting. One day they'd all been done, i presume by someone driving a bot. And in fact i think there is a new check box on the Move page dialog, offering IIRC to fix all the pages that currently point to the page being moved. My guess is that two otherwise complementary moves, with judicious choices of that parameter, would reduce the problem to a more managable level. Research should be done at Help:Move, and then inquiry at VPT if needed.
Uh, wait! It looks like someone has already done the big part of what was needed. Are there now a handful of non-painting-related articles Lk'd to to Painting, that someone should weed out from among the 5 to 10 thousand???
--Jerzy•t 00:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I took care to fix the links correctly. There we a total of two articles (of the 3,500+) that I linked to Corel Painter. The rest link to Painting. bd2412 T 02:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Wow, i'm impressed. Hope you had a bot on yr team!
    --Jerzy•t 06:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Nope, just AWB, and some spare time. Cheers! bd2412 T 15:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exposition re the occupations[edit]

The following side discussion appears at User talk:BD2412#Painter disambig:

Painter disambig[edit]

You recently edited this page, removing a crucial qualification. If you can think of a way to shorten the distinction I was trying to make, then please do it. But it is necessary. Why? Because as you have left things, someone who paints murals would qualify as a "painter" under the second definition, just like a house painter. A disambiguation is inadequate if it doesn't clarify the distinction being made, and it's too bad if it takes more words than you'd like to see. If you don't restore that distinction, either in my original version or in a new version improved for brevity, than I will restore it myself. MdArtLover (talk) 14:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Users should be able to get that distiction by visiting the individual articles, however. bd2412 T 14:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The supposedly "crucial qualification" was appropriately removed, w/ summary
(→Occupation: too much exposition for a disambig page)

The operative long-standing guideline say

Keep in mind that the primary purpose of the disambiguation page is to help people find the information they want quickly and easily.

and

Entries should nearly always be sentence fragments. Even when the entry forms a complete sentence, do not include commas or periods at the end of the line.
The description associated with a link should be kept to a minimum, just sufficient to allow the reader to find the correct link.

and BD might better have said that users should know the distinction already or get it from a dictionary, tho it is indeed appropriate for that role to be played out in the articles, sometimes by the classic dictdef that is the lead sentence of most good articles. But since the fact of the two senses (if not the details of precisely how to describe a boundary) is a such a commonplace as to support the gag

Und Hitler vas a better painter than Churchill too -- A whole flat in vun afternoon, two coats!

the appropriate place is probably a short article on something like Distinction between painters as fine artists and as skilled laborers. It should include

-- the various verifiable wordings of recognized lexicographers, employment-law jurists, and linguists,

-- which languages share the ambiguity that English does (The Hitler joke has an in-joke subtext, accessible to German Jews and probably to other Yiddish-speakers: unless Franz Liebchen is faking his German accent, he would be clear about the fact that little Adolf had fancied himself a Maler, not a Streicher!),

-- the futility of the distinction since the two are in fact extremes of a continuum (tho a bimodal one).

Such an article would be lk'd from both of the articles that are eventually the targets of the two lks in the "painter" and/or "painting" Dab(s) we are are discussing.

Here are the three versions, lest any valuable wording or implicit thot be lost:

:
* A visual artist who uses painting as a medium, whether on canvas or on other surfaces.

* A person who paints the exteriors, or the interior walls, of houses or other buildings, for example, a house painter. This is usually considered part of the maintenance or general upkeep of a building, rather than fine art.
:
* A visual artist who uses painting as a medium, whether on canvas or on other surfaces.

* A person who paints the exteriors, or the interior walls, of houses or other buildings, for example, a house painter.
:
* A visual artist who uses painting as a medium for artistic expression, whether on canvas or on other surfaces.

* A person who paints the exterior and/or interior walls of houses or other buildings as part of the maintenance or general upkeep of the buildings, for example, a house painter.

(Since it has not yet been mentioned, it should be said that even the last of these violates MoSDab by having two blue lks in one entry.)

I am, then, rewriting these two needed entries. Were i a little bit sharper, i might have shortened this evolution by tumbling, at the time of my previous edit, to their inherent presence in the lead item that i found and removed:

A painter is most commonly a person who engages in painting.

--Jerzy•t 19:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge plan[edit]

This section appeared originally on Painting/failed article "Painter", and that is what "this page" means within it.

I created this page to rescue, from under a pair of Rdrs, the history of what was at Painter before the following touched-up history entry:

18:33, 28 September 2006 [RussBlau (talk · contribs)] (moved Painter to Painter (disambiguation): To allow redirection to principal topic)

As i noted at the time of the "rescue", i consider the history to be important evidence of

the futility of an article on the topic "painter", and

the appropriateness of lks (presently numbering, IIRC, in the mid-four-figures) coded [[painting|painter]].
The response to that creation (a page-history split, to be technical) has been confusingly inefficient, and rather than elicit further wasted effort, i am boldly splitting the history further, and merging the older part into Painter, providing it with the early history of the title.

Its content at the time of the move was (with tags & inter-lang converted to nowiki text):

For the computer graphics program, see Corel Painter.

A painter is a person who applies paint to a surface.

In the arts, painters create paintings—two-dimensional artworks—by applying paint to a flat surface.

As a trade, painters apply paint to woodwork, walls, etc. See: Painter and decorator and Interior decoration.

A painter is a line attached to the bow of a dinghy for towing or tying up.

Merged Discussion[edit]

Details to follow in next 12
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerzy (talk • contribs) 22:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's not a lot to say about the merger of the two Talk pages, except that their respective time spans probably overlap only bcz i wrote the "Merge plan" section on Painting/failed article "Painter" instead of Talk:Painter, which IIRC will make it appear that a few of the immediatly preceding sections will appear to have been deleted for a period (a few days, i think), and then restored, in both cases without any suggestion of that in the edit summaries.
That should be less confusing on a talk page such as this, bcz spatial overlap between the two merged pages should be insignificant.
--Jerzy•t 08:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]