Talk:Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania

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Untitled

The article is riduculously POV and needs extensive copyediting. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 08:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And what in particular you do not like? Sigitas 10:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Royal not Ducal

It was residence of many kings including Casimir IV Jagiellon, Zygmunt II August, and Vladislovas Vaza. Why do you edit history articles you if don't have a clue about history? Accepted name is Royal Palace [1] Sigitas 12:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It cannot be called "Lithuanian Royal Palace" because this title implies that the palace was owned by the kings of Lithuania, of which there were none. If you provide reputable sources that the palace was called royal, I am ready to move the page to "Royal Palace (Vilnius)", as we have Royal Palace of Madrid, for example. "Lithuanian Royal Palace" is unacceptable and sounds like original research. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 12:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When the palace was built, Lithuania was ruled by Grand Dukes, not Kings, so I agree that "Ducal Palace" is the right term.--Jcspurrell 12:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I missed this development so somebody could explain which name was used at first place? Now about formulation of Royal Palace:

Majority of sources call it Royal Palace, few have other name variation. English book L. Danes. Theteutonic Knights: From the Holy Land to the Baltic Sea (2004), has formulation Royal Palace (placed it just for interest)
Data proving that Palace was built by Vytautas, who in 1429 was proclaimed as King of Lithuania. Prior he ordered the major building projects in Vilnius Castle Complex for upcoming developments. And by historians, after 1430 coronation newly renovated Royal Palace should serve him as main residence as King.
Ducal Palace usually referred by historians to Trakai castle. “in Vilnius” helps a bit but still confusion could be made.
And user:Jcspurrell, Lithuania was ruled by Grand Dukes, not Kings , actually majority of Lithuanian rulers were referred contemporary as Rex.

I've just had a look at King of Lithuania. It says that the rulers were known as Grand Dukes because they were pagan (King being a term reserved for Christian rulers) - but nowadays we do not make that distinction. If this is correct (MK, you can probably confirm as you have contributed to that page), then I suppose "Royal" is correct.--Jcspurrell 17:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article King of Lithuania is still very unclear to readers, for instance since at some places they are referred to in Latin as "rex" how it be some places then Pope call a ruler as a rex and the same ruler have seal with sitting ruler in it and with inscription – rex … I consistently making improvements on it, but it very hard to explain this tricky thing as Grand Duke/King thing and much much is to be done to make article more readable.

If we want to be very precise this article should be called Royal and Ducal Palace, but this would be more from original research side. M.K. 18:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Palace was a residence of the Kings and Grand Dukes (some of them were introduced here already) during the Commonwealth and prior it times.
So name Royal Palace is the best formulation. Adding in/of Vilnius, Lithuanian etc. is secondary issue. M.K. 17:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

:: Find one instance of "Ducal Palace" name for this building in google. Accepted name is Royal Palace, as it is called now, do not invent names. Literaly "Lietuvos valdovu rumai" would translate "Palace of Lithuanian Rulers", but in English it is called Royal Palace. Sigitas 12:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article on the Grand Duke's palace in Luxembourg is called "Grand Ducal Palace, Luxembourg"--Jcspurrell 12:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is located in Vilnius, not Luxembourg. Find this particular building called "Ducal Palace". Sigitas 12:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well here's one of many found on google: [2].--Jcspurrell 13:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. This building is also often called "Rulers' Palace". So now we have 3 alternatives: "Rulers' Palace of the Lower Castle", "Ducal Palace of the Lower Castle" and "Royal Palace of the Lower Castle". Let's call it "Rulers' Palace of the Lower Castle". Sigitas 13:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Why don't we call the article Ducal Palace (Vilnius), in the same style as Royal Castle (Warsaw), Summer Palace (Russia) and National Palace (Mexico)?--Jcspurrell 12:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Or even Grand Ducal Palace (Vilnius)--Jcspurrell 12:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another possibility is Vilnius Palace. We have Stockholm Palace instead of Royal Palace (Stockholm), so why not Vilnius Palace? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 13:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vilnius palace was very big and complex structure. Rulers' palace is just a small part of it. See image [3]. Rulers' palace is number 9. Sigitas 13:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not essential part of national consciousness

"Following independence from the USSR in 1991, Lithuanians decided to rebuild the palace, as it was considered an essential part of their national consciousness."?! Ghirla, you abuse the word "original research" but personally you invent grand theories yourself. Rebuilding this palace in Lithuania is unpopular, it is child of ego of one particular polititian Algirdas Brazauskas. Sigitas 12:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was not me but Jcspurrell who added this particular sentence. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 13:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SorrySigitas 13:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found this info on [4], but as you think it's wrong, I'll delete it immediately. --Jcspurrell 13:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Public only collected 2% of required funds. It is mainly funded by taxes. Most of archeologists do not suppport its reconstruction and public would prefer to spend those 30 million euros on other projects. Reconstruction of this palace is quite controversial topic, I would suggest to remove this sentence. This article (sorry it is in Lithuanian) [5] presents views of historians who call reconstruction a "cultural crime". I will probably create section on controversies of reconstruction. Sigitas 13:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most of is POV M.K. 17:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 00:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

move?

So is here any objection on moving this page to Royal Palace in (or of) Vilnius? M.K. 22:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe "Rulers' Palace of the Lower Castle". This way we will not have to fight for titles anymore. Sigitas 09:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Ducal Palace in Vilnius → Royal Palace of Lithuania – More consistent for today usage, avoids misleads, etc. M.K. 22:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support M.K. 22:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support Renata 22:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Rulers' Palace is my second choice. Sigitas 21:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The request is not to 'Lithuanian Royal Palace', but to Royal Palace of Lithuania. Royals lived there. It was Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Sigismund Augustus has moved his court here and chose this particular place instead of Cracow for 4 years. Mostly thanks to his mother Bona Sforza, who valued art and music and knew the latest Italian fashions of the time, it was a magnificient place back then. One of the most romantic love stories of medieval ages took place in Vilnius. Juraune 12:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Google hints:

Royal Palace

Ducal Palace

I deliberately pin pointed source to be taken from LT google, because very hard to make the assessment in whole without restrictions. M.K. 22:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The controversy

While I was not aware of the controversy around building the palace, I must say that it also immediately struck me when I saw it for the first time. Why build a new "historical" building, when there are so many original buildings waiting for renovation. I'm sure Vilnius would benefit better from renovating many historic churches, palaces and other houses than building this one. --Lysy^talk 14:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This issue is not the very easy; sadly article part do not mansions another "side" arguments of this matter. Maybe I write it later. The main problem is – what do with contemporary structures, which are preserved, somehow “critics” failed to answer to this question. while yes, some historical buildings needs attention and urgently M.K. 17:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scheme

The scheme of the whole castle is jamming article too much, is it needed in this context? M.K. 18:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus to move to Royal Palace of Vilnius Skomorokh, barbarian 09:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Palace of Lithuania → Royal Palace of Vilnius — The current name sounds weird. The normal format is "Royal Palace of city" and not country. There is no "Imperial Palace of Japan" or "Royal Palace of the Netherlands". Gryffindor (talk) 13:05, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the normal format in English is Royal Palace of Whitehall, or Holyrood, the proper name of the palace. Doesn't this building have one? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did a quick check, and the Lithuanian name translates literally as "Royal Palace". I don't know how generic that is in Lithuanian. So, if there isn't an established English name, using "Royal Palace (Vilnius)" would make sense. Or we could just use the Lithuanian as the title. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 20:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Better would be Royal Palace (Lithuania) or Royal Palace, Vilnius, since that why we are not inventing usage by choosing "of this" or "of that". See Government House (Alberta) or Government House, Sydney, etc. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 23:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I see no problem using of Lithuania, however "Royal Palace (Lithuania)" is also not bad solution. M.K. (talk) 09:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be called Royal Palace of Lithuania in Lithuanian, so we should call it that too. Let's not invent a name if we can avoid it. Oreo Priest ^talk 05:48, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide evidence to back up that claim? YeshuaDavid • Talk • 21:16, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lietuvos valdovų rūmai direct translation > Royal Palace of Lithuania.M.K. (talk) 06:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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