Talk:Pennines

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Inhabitants section[edit]

There must be other Bronze-Age settlements besides Anglezarke in the Pennines - e.g. Mam Tor, off the top of my head. And the section should perhaps be called "Early inhabitants" or expanded into a more general History section. Dave.Dunford 11:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of somewhat re-writing the "Early Inhabitants" section. Yes, there are lots of Bronze Age settlements - we have one on our doorstep just north of Mallerstang - but I didn't name any, and haven't given any references John Hamilton 01:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Good work John. Dave.Dunford 18:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Revision of sections[edit]

I have rearranged some of the headings without deleting previous contributions. I shall continue to add text as and when I can find references to the area. I thought maybe a table of settlements with population stats would give an idea of the population as I can't find any figures for the whole region. Any offers?--Harkey Lodger (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Introduction[edit]

In the intro section I'd propose that the suggestion that the Pennines extend into Scotland be removed and that the reference to the Cumbrian Fells be modified as this may be misleading. The Cumbrian Fells rightly refers to the hills of the former county of Cumberland, only some of which extend into the Pennine range - most would be considered a part of the Lake District. I think also the Rossendale Fells and the West Pennine Moors might be considered one and the same by some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geopersona (talkcontribs) 20:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 86.167.38.31 (talk) 20:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


JCAs superseded[edit]

Browsing this article today I notice that the JCA links are dead. Further research points to http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/landscape/englands/character/areas/default.aspx which notes that they are now "National Character Areas", e.g. http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/landscape/englands/character/areas/dark_peak.aspx for the Dark Peak (my local one). It wouldn't be difficult to make these amendments -- if no one else does soon I might have a go. Simon Grant (talk) 07:25, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I noted that the PDF files on the Natural England website are still labelled Jca(X) and have not been revised so it's just a change of name to "National Character Areas" and a URL move. Please revise/update as you see fit.--Harkey (talk) 10:05, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I've done this now, and introduced an extra NCA that looked implausible to leave out: surely Pendle Hill is part of the Pennines? If it isn't, then surely the rest of the Forest of Bowland isn't either? The correspondence between the actual NCAs and the map given is far from exact, and I had to put the two Bowland NCAs together -- I would suggest a review to include other NCAs that are reasonably considered to be part of the Pennines, according to the map at the top of the article, and then seeing if we can include a reworking of the Natural England map. Just how are we defining what area is "really" the Pennines? Simon Grant (talk) 19:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Added a few pieces[edit]

I've added a few pieces on the areas history, flora, fauna, climate and landscape. I don't know how to resize images though, so if someone could resize the images under the national parks section to a more suitable size then that'd be a great help. Cheers. Kentynet (talk) 17:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I have thumbed the images for now but could do with some captions adding to help understanding and possible rearranging to improve layout. Keith D (talk) 18:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the help with that. Yesterday I added a few pieces to the article and today I've worked a bit on aesthetics and imagery, I felt the images were somewhat "Central-Pennines-centric" and didn't really provide a feel for how the different areas of the Pennines look.
As we all know the Pennines are a very diverse area, so I've added a few pictures from different areas of the Pennines and from related articles to these areas, I think this article has needed fresh pictures for quite a while, but it still retains most of its original ones.

Kentynet (talk) 14:08, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

One thing I feel lacking is some map that gives the boundaries in relation to places, so you can see where it is in relation especially to places near the boundary. Keith D (talk) 16:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

List of "Main settlements"[edit]

Couple of issues:

  • Any suggestions as to which settlements should and shouldn't be included? It's a pretty random selection at the moment.
  • And in what order should they be presented? Again, currently it's pretty random.

Should it even be in the article? Dave.Dunford (talk) 17:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Plural[edit]

Recent (partial) edits have treated "The Pennines" as singular ("The Pennines is..."). But many existing references within the article still use the plural ("The Pennines are...", "The Pennines were...") which, to me at least, reads much more naturally; I can see the reasoning behind the singular, but it feels pedantic and unnatural. For the sake of consistency and natural idiom, I've switched where possible back to the plural usage, or changed to uncontroversially singular constructions such as "The Pennine region is...". Comments welcome (and I may have missed some). Dave.Dunford (talk) 00:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Geology and landscape[edit]

At the end of this paragraph I propose changing these words: ... occupied by moors and peat mosses, ....

because that link is incorrect: it is bracken peat not sphagnum peat. So I propose replacing them with:

... occupied by a moorland of bracken, peat, heather and coarse grasses, ....

For reference see http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/domesday/dblock/GB-400000-441000/page/4 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/domesday/dblock/GB-400000-441000/page/5 - Marginal Upland Grazing Sutton Moor, Domesday Reloaded, BBC 1986 Kildwyke (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I implemented this change today Kildwyke (talk) 13:33, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Orogeny[edit]

I was interested to know what formed the Pennines, but I can find no mention of it in the article. Maybe there should be a section on this? VenomousConcept (talk) 12:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Eastern and western edges[edit]

"Larger cities such as Leeds and Manchester lie at the foot of the hills." This statement seems to suggest that neither of these cities is actually in the Pennines. Is this correct? The lead image, derived from a NASA satellite image, seems to show a very definite boundary line - how has this boundary been devised and how does it relate to geogrophical settlements? Presumably it's a simple matter of contours. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:27, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The line on the image is original research by the uploader, User:Harkey Lodger, I think - I don't know of any other basis for it. It seems to me that it's reasonably correct to refer to both Leeds and Manchester as "at the foot of" the hills, rather than within them. Sources either way would be useful. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:45, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
The text and image are probably well out of date by now try here for more up to date information and please feel free to amend anything at all.--Harkey Talk 14:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks. Sorry to see you've just retired. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:35, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Yikes! - hope it wasn't anything to do with us...?! Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
PS: The problem with the National Character Areas, so far as this article is concerned, is that they don't refer to the Pennines as a whole. So, I'd be happy to keep the current image, but make clear that it shows the general extent only, not a definitive boundary. I'll tweak the caption a little. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:45, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
PPS: ...But, having said that, it looks to me like a good part of the Forest of Bowland - the next image down - is actually outside the white line. Do we need to rethink further? Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Maybe we do. I was hoping that HL was at least going to tell us how that boundary had been decided. I was expecting some kind of commonly agreed definition of what constitutes "upland terrain" which might then have been applied to this section of the country. Surely there are some geographers out there who have access to manipulable UK terrain maps? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:04, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I suspect it's one of those terms, like West Country, where there is no clear definition and certainly no boundary. We had this, but it's out of date - the areas don't seem to correspond with the ones shown here. Perhaps we should just have a relief map, with the name superimposed somewhat vaguely across it - to give a general indication of its location without being specific. If so, I'm sure someone at WP:GL/MAP could draw one up quickly. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:17, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, according to Natural England, Leeds is outside the Yorkshire Southern Pennine Fringe but is, in fact, in the Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and Yorkshire Coalfield (downloadable pdf doc with map), as is Wakefield. I see that the Wakefield article currently has it described as being "on the eastern edge of the Pennines", although no source is provided to support that statement. Looking at the map of the YSPF it seems that, if one was travelling on the M62, the boundary between the two area is where the B6125 from Birstall to Drighlington passes beneath the motorway. But that's just the Natural England Character Areas, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 18 May 2013 (UTC) p.s. I have left a note at WP:GL/MAP.

Pennines location map.png
I was trying to fulfil your request but I got lost while trying to figure out the Pennines extent. What about this map? Wouldn't it be enough for the article? Hellerick (talk) 08:13, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I think that would be an improvement, although that yellow label might get a bit lost if the image was reduced much. Let's see what other editors say. I'm still intrigued to know if there is a geographically valid boundary. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:17, 16 June 2013 (UTC) p.s. is there a single agreed hieght asl for UK "upland"?
Looks great to me, but it would be better if the words were in black. There is very little likelihood of there being any useful boundary - it's never been an administrative area, and local landscape designations cover small parts of it only. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:04, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Looks fine to me, with the same reservation about the text colour. Dave.Dunford (talk) 09:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I was trying different colours, and yellow seemed most clear upon this background. Okay, here are the black letters. They were poorly seen upon green and pinkish background, so I had to remove "The" from the name and make the letters larger. Hellerick (talk) 09:34, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, that fits the article name. (Unless we have a huge debate about use of the definite article, of course!) Martinevans123 (talk) 09:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I've boldly gone where no man... etc. and added it to the article. Thank you, Hellerick, it's a big improvement. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:10, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Try http://www.snh.org.uk/wwo/sharinggoodpractice/CCI/cci/northwest/054.htm for more clarification of "borders". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.137.27 (talk) 14:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Introduction (again)[edit]

I'm not happy about the third paragraph of the introduction, the one starting "Although the above is a common definition...". It seems to be written by someone who has a very precise idea in their own head of where the Pennines begin and end, without that being supported by reliable sources anywhere. And it seems too precise and detailed to be in the lead section anyway. Should it be, first, moved to the body of the article and tagged, and then removed altogether if reliable sources for it can't be found? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:15, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Quite agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd be more inclined to remove it - it makes concrete assertions about things which can be refuted, such as:
  • "Although the above is a common definition, the Cheviot Hills are not, strictly speaking, part of the Pennines" - 'common definition' isn't supported, but if it was found to be the case, that tends not to lend credence to the rest of the sentence. (For example my Philip's Atlas has the 'P' of 'Pennine Range' positioned over the southern parts of the Cheviots, well north of Hadrians Wall.)
  • "The true southern end of the Pennines is in the Stoke-on-Trent area, about 40 miles (64 km) south of Edale." - actually, 40 miles south of Edale (as the crow flies) is somewhere in the vicinity of Burton upon Trent, not Stoke-on-Trent. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:11, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd agree with all that's said above. And if anyone's minded to edit, while you're at it it would seem to make sense to introduce and wikilink the Pennine Way before referencing it in a discussion of the extent of the range, rather than referring to it and then describing afterwards, as it is now. Dave.Dunford (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Infobox?[edit]

Should the article have an infobox? And, if so - given the arguments we've had over the Pennines being hills rather than "mountains" - should we use Template:Infobox mountain range? Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I see that these mountains get an info box. Are they really that much higher? Mountain says "In the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic, a mountain is usually defined as any summit at least 2,000 feet (or 610 metres) high". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Ah, but that's a protected area infobox - not the same thing at all. The Pennines aren't a protected area per se, though I'm sure most bits are. Wales is different. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:27, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Haha, yes, how true. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that the Pennines are hills rather than mountains (and that the 2,000-foot criterion quoted above is an anachronism). But I see absolutely no reason why Pennines shouldn't use Template:Infobox mountain range. There are (lower) ranges that use it, such as South Downs and Puente Hills, and there's nothing in the template that doesn't apply to a range of hills. Dave.Dunford (talk) 16:40, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
A very fair comment. Many people (anon ip vandals included) apparently see them, or at least parts of them, not as hills, but as "fells" or "moors". Martinevans123 (talk) 16:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, for the legal purposes of the CRoW, any (unimproved) land over 600m is mountain. This article could use the mountain range infobox just fine - it doesn't say anything invalid. Most people would agree the Pennines are a "range" even if they can't agree what they are a range of.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Images[edit]

IMO the images in the article need review. There are as many maps as photos (7 of each), and both categories could do with better graphics. Those maps have a preponderance of relief maps, at a glance 3 look all but identical.

Starting with the existing maps:

  • General extent in Northern England

The lead map does its job - giving their location - without the misleading impression the older map gave. However, it would be best if the initial map gives the broadest context (so the Pennines in the UK, or at least England).

  • Overview topography of UK

Adds nothing and should go, the previous map gives everything this one does

  • Climatic zones of UK, showing Pennines

Adds significant value, an update with better sourcing would be nice though

  • The Pennine JCAs in Northern England

Badly out of date - should show the present NCAs instead. The graphic supports the text, but both are dependent on the unsourced comment that says "The Pennines have these 11 NCAs" - says who? For example, should anything north of the Tyne Gap be included? How about the fringe areas, which are in which are out? Map could be dropped entirely, and section reformulated to talk about the areas of the Pennines as opposed to the NCAs.

  • A topographic map showing the passes

Could do with an update. It shows the topography (again!), but should be showing the transport links which use the gaps

  • A map of the national parks and AONBs

What exactly do these national maps have to do with the Pennines? Would be better to show just the protected areas within the Pennines; and how much of the area is protected.

Aside updating the existing maps other things could be displayed on maps, such as the Pennine Way, the Irish Sea/North Sea watershed, locations of major summits...

The photos are more subjective, of course, but a couple things stand out to me:

  1. Most of the photos show bleak moorland areas. I realise most of the Pennines are just that, but where are the pics of the summits, the caves...?
  2. Why a photo of a dog? You can't see the grouse in the thumbnail, and they are only barely visible at full res. Would be better to just have a picture of grouse in the right habitat, or of hunting?

A few things there :)--Nilfanion (talk) 11:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

To which I would add the question of whether the Peak District and the Forest of Bowland, shown in the photos, are really part of the Pennines at all. They're certainly not typical. Maybe we should get some more appropriate images from Geograph. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
That's the first time I've ever heard the notion aired that the Peak District isn't part of the Pennines. I think my late geography teacher Roger Redfern, author of South Pennine Country and Portrait of The Pennines amongst many other publications, would have strongly protested otherwise... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 13:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, I usually think of the Pennines as being to the north of the Peak District, but maybe that's just my POV! Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I see the only mention of "Pennine" currently included at Forest of Bowland is in "Bowland Pennine Mountain Rescue" (x3) ! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Some very good questions. I'd certainly agree with adding one or more images of caves, perhaps like this one: File:Gaping Gill.jpg or File:Rowton cave kingsdale yorkshire uk.JPG. But I think we can only use this one File:Famous Grouse logo, 2012.jpg in Scotland. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I've removed the "Overview topography of UK" per suggestion.
  • I think it was me that added the grouse picture (to replace a similar picture of a dog with a pheasant); I chose it as it was the only picture I could find that represented grouse shooting (which is what is referenced in the section it accompanies) while also showing the bird itself. But I'm not averse to it being replaced with a simple photo of some grouse.
  • I think most definitions of the Pennines include the Peak District (certainly the Dark Peak, anyway). Dave.Dunford (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Dave - what's your view on the Trough/Forest of Bowland? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:42, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Personally, I'd include Bowland in the Pennines, but I'm no expert. I'll see what my (few) books on the subject have to say, but I'm not sure there's a definitive answer. Dave.Dunford (talk) 10:31, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
I see this site says "Geologically it’s part of the main Pennine range.. ", perhaps suggesting that there are some other senses in which it is not a part? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
What do they say about the Cheviots? Would be good to resolve that as opposed to the article flatly saying they are not in the Pennines, but are often included.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:54, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
(The threading in this section is going to get unwieldy ;) ) With regards to the grouse shooting - could use the painting from that article. It shows hunting activity much better than the dog and as a bonus actually shows a location in the Pennines (the dog is in Scotland).--Nilfanion (talk) 10:54, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
That's an excellent image and seems very suitable. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:08, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Character Areas[edit]

The Border Moors and Forests, north of Hadrian's Wall are not part of the Pennines and Pennines is not mentioned in the reference supplied. I shall remove it. J3Mrs (talk) 10:56, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Not done because the list is dependent on a map with the same inaccurate information. J3Mrs (talk) 11:02, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
The map is outdated and needs replacing. However, Hadrian's Wall isn't necessarily the northern limit of the Pennines. The Cheviots are sometimes included too. The precise extent of the Pennines are generally unclear, we need better sources to tackle that.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:07, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, why should a man-made wall be used to mark the extent of a geographical feature? Might be appropriate in some cases, but not necessarily here. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:20, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Unless someone can provide definitive, sourced, evidence as to where the Pennines begin and end, the working assumption must be that the term is one of those fuzzy geographical terms (like, say, West Country), that can mean different things to different people. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, and I imagine different sources saying different things can be found anyway, there is no body that can definitively say the Pennines = this area. I'd suggest any section, like that on NCAs be adjusted to allow for fuzziness. eg 'The following NCAs are sometimes included in the Pennines' (sourcing each), or 'According to Natural England, the Pennines consist of the following NCAs' (with one Natural England source).--Nilfanion (talk) 21:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
The lead defines the northern limit of the Pennines as south of the Tyne Gap so I suppose the article is destined to remain inconsistent.J3Mrs (talk) 13:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
It neglects to state how far south. Do we assume this means "immediately south of"? Or should that defintion be removed? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Britannica's definition of the extent of the Pennines is from the Tyne Gap to the valley of the River Trent i.e. it includes the Peak District which is what I understood it to be. I was pointing out inconsistency in the article not making assumptions. J3Mrs (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
So does Britannica say how far south? Or, if it does not, what should we understand it to mean? Would adding it as a direct source for the Tyne Gap claim at least show where the inconsistency arises? I did not think the Peak District was in dispute here. I thought we were discussing the northern boundary. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Name section[edit]

I know Ms Myrtle is generally a force for good but has a bit of a problem recognizing the difference between helpful edits and vandalism. As a minor recap, it's a Good Thing to avoid needlessly verbose section headings. There's even a policy on the topic. The current #Geology and physical geography section could also use some trimming, if you're up to it.

There is, however, no good reason just to change one terse name into another, let alone immediately, let alone nonsensically.* Such speedy, needless "corrections" are off-putting, which is a Bad Thing.† — LlywelynII 17:58, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

On the bright side, you are pretty damned thorough, so let me know what you think of the edits to this section and the treatment of the Pennines at De Situ. While I know "not exactly Bertram's" = the existing treatment was completely misreading its source, I don't know whether the source is overstating his case and the consensus is 99% that Bertram invented this name, even though other people made the comparison before ("our Apennines") and we don't actually use his form of the name either ("Pennine Alps"). — LlywelynII 18:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)


* A section on the history of a word is an etymology. [See Alps#Etymology, Ural_Mountains#Etymology, Alborz#Etymology, &c. ] Toponymy is the study of placenames, not an actual specific placename. Given that this is a place, we don't have a "toponym" or "placename" section, either. It's just a "name" [See Andes#Name ].
† No, I'm not a nooB. Point's still valid.